Larry W4CSC wrote:

jeannette wrote in
:


That's one of the reason I like the Outbacker. Besides it's made in
Oz...

Jeannette



I've never been impressed by the Outbackers, nothing but hookup wire
wrapped around a fiberglass rod with plastic taps in the continuously
loaded coil whip. It's too short for a good radiation pattern below 20
meters with way too much loading and you can't put any real RF power to it
which will destroy the hookup wire it's made of. "Homebrew" comes to mind
under the shrink wrap exterior.


Short feeler to mine, Chuukker. That and a short counterpoise. Trail
an insulated wire in a hose for a "ground". Nichrome toaster wire
could take more heat, huh? It also unloads your Tx automatically if
the ae is too short.

Some have commented they didn't like having to go out to change the taps.
I'm curious how they keep the salt out of the little holes from corroding
it all up.


Beeswax, Billy. Lots of beeswax. Dunk the whole thing twice. A hot
iron will work as a screwdriver right through it.



The longest screwdriver antennas would make a MUCH more efficient HF
tunable antenna for all the bands as they have continuous coverage if we
could figure out how to keep from drowning their coils in seawater....

Beeswax, I say!

http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/1...90cf2ed1290b68
d5d1d

http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlux/ra...crewdriver.htm

http://www.dxengineering.com/Product...cID=8&DeptID=2

http://www.n2vz.com/
automatic control of screwdriver antennas....autotuner!

http://www.kj7u.com/
KJ7U's screwdriver with the rubber boot looks very promising for marine
use....

http://www.wb0w.com/tarheel/tarheel.htm
Tarheel says theirs is for marine use.

The key to all these antennas is they use a LARGE, EFFICIENT, center-loaded
coil with a continuous tap that allows you, or an autotuner, to put the
tuning of this antenna

stump


EXACTLY on your frequency, not "close enough" like
an outbacker. ANY frequency as the coil is continously tuned, not banded.

The idea of tuning by remote control, from the nav station for instance, is
much nicer than having to go out to the outbacker in the weather on the
stern to fool around with that stupid tap.....

Why is that? Why not change the tap in the cabin? The wire from the
autotuner is part of the radiating element array. The other end, the
floating counterpoise, could go through the side and trail behind.

One might think the forestay a better choise for an antenna element.


The longer the whip on top of it...the better because it reduces the amount
of loading coil necessary to tune it.....


In radio, as with hot rods, there is no substitute for linear
inches, displaced cubewise.

Changing the length of the trailed element will do some of the same,
could go auto with an electrolux type reel retractor and a sliding
contact, or a fish tape and a roller drive contactor / retractor wheel.

The sliding contacts are weak spots in all autotuners, especially if
you need a kilowatt to do your toeast. (Sorry, I found it innocent,
and I'm not changing it. -tk) A directional rig and polar chart can
do the job a lot cheaper, and is easier to fix. Besides, you got one
already, can't get rid of it, might as well learn to drive it. Turn
the boat to pass your traffic. A mechanical adjustment crank and
turns counter could keep a channel open if the auto tuner servo
should conk out. A reference table, previously tabulated, will
enable continued radio service at distant ranges and directions.

Why don't GPSs provide a wordwide notices text channel? You could
set a contact code to capture the text that's intended for "An
english sailboat" channel. Kinda like one half of a newsgroup service.

Terry K

Terry Spragg wrote in news:RtSdnZBYQIYn-
:

Beeswax, I say!


Wonder why all the world's militarys don't run these amazing Outbacker
home-made-lookin' antennas?

Hell, I'm amazed Radio Moscow isn't using one!

On 2005-03-26 14:36:18 +1100, Larry W4CSC said:

Terry Spragg wrote in news:RtSdnZBYQIYn-
:

Beeswax, I say!


Wonder why all the world's militarys don't run these amazing Outbacker
home-made-lookin' antennas?

Hell, I'm amazed Radio Moscow isn't using one!

Isn't it amazing. If you can't refute based upon actual on air
experience then just ridicule it!

Larry, I expected better from a licensed amateur. After all we amateurs
have been proving things that shouldn't work do for a long time. In the
end I guess you will be judged by your utterences. So keep the mouth
flapping.

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

John Proctor wrote in
news:2005032617173316807%lost@nowhereorg:

Larry, I expected better from a licensed amateur. After all we amateurs
have been proving things that shouldn't work do for a long time. In the
end I guess you will be judged by your utterences. So keep the mouth
flapping.

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall



The point is, national pride aside, the Outbacker is still a bunch of
hookup wire wrapped around a fiberglass rod with taps imbedded into the
shrink tubing that covers the hookup wire.

Continuously loaded antennas are very inefficient and produce far less E
field than antennas without continuous loading.

The shorter ANY antenna is less than 1/4 wavelength, the less and less it
radiates.....simple fact.....

On 2005-03-27 00:46:39 +1100, Larry W4CSC said:

John Proctor wrote in
news:2005032617173316807%lost@nowhereorg:

Larry, I expected better from a licensed amateur. After all we amateurs
have been proving things that shouldn't work do for a long time. In the
end I guess you will be judged by your utterences. So keep the mouth
flapping.

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall



The point is, national pride aside, the Outbacker is still a bunch of
hookup wire wrapped around a fiberglass rod with taps imbedded into the
shrink tubing that covers the hookup wire.

Continuously loaded antennas are very inefficient and produce far less
E field than antennas without continuous loading.

The shorter ANY antenna is less than 1/4 wavelength, the less and less
it radiates.....simple fact.....

Thats true. However the discussion has been about a collection of
suboptimal antennas. Too short for lower SSB spectrum use.

Backstays, 23' whips and outbacker's are all too short for efficient
use on low HF. The original question asked was what is the best
approach. Best in this case (marine HF) must absolutely include
survivability as a marine SSB HF rig is predominantly a saftey item. A
backstay or any other rigging based structure as I pointed out is
inherently risky and therefore unacceptable to bodies such as ocean
racing organisations.

The screwdriver and antennas of similar design are effective in the
land mobile service downunder. The number of 4WD vehicles with Codans
on and in them proves that but again they are totally unsuited to the
marine envirnment. Codan doesn't even try to make a marinised
adjustable antenna that I know of.

BTW if you want to see inefficient antennas look to the Hams that do
160M mobile. There is a hiding to nowhere as far as efficiency is
concerned but they are a hardy band of operators!

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

John -

While the listed antenna are all sub-optimal on the lower bands the
difference in performance is marked if they are loaded reasonably well.

I doubt that the requirements of off shore racers should in any way
influence what cruiser do. Cruisers simply don't lose rigs. That is a more
due to the propensity of the racer to go all out even to the risk of the
rig. Every rational cruiser avoids stressing his rig...it just makes life
to difficult.

Note that jury rigged antennas or carrying some spare gizmo still provide
lots of opportunity for a cruiser to get out when needed even after an
unexpected disaster. .

It has been my experience that emergency use of the SSB is reasonably common
but that the cause is generally not a severely damaged boat. Mostly its
stuff like getting something to work or dealing with a medical problem.
Even on occassion have seen starters rebuilt at sea with expert advice from
a ham net.

Jim Donohue KO6MH amateur extra
"John Proctor" wrote in message
news:2005032704261916807%lost@nowhereorg...
On 2005-03-27 00:46:39 +1100, Larry W4CSC said:

John Proctor wrote in
news:2005032617173316807%lost@nowhereorg:

Larry, I expected better from a licensed amateur. After all we amateurs
have been proving things that shouldn't work do for a long time. In the
end I guess you will be judged by your utterences. So keep the mouth
flapping.

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall



The point is, national pride aside, the Outbacker is still a bunch of
hookup wire wrapped around a fiberglass rod with taps imbedded into the
shrink tubing that covers the hookup wire.

Continuously loaded antennas are very inefficient and produce far less E
field than antennas without continuous loading.

The shorter ANY antenna is less than 1/4 wavelength, the less and less it
radiates.....simple fact.....

Thats true. However the discussion has been about a collection of
suboptimal antennas. Too short for lower SSB spectrum use.

Backstays, 23' whips and outbacker's are all too short for efficient use
on low HF. The original question asked was what is the best approach. Best
in this case (marine HF) must absolutely include survivability as a marine
SSB HF rig is predominantly a saftey item. A backstay or any other rigging
based structure as I pointed out is inherently risky and therefore
unacceptable to bodies such as ocean racing organisations.

The screwdriver and antennas of similar design are effective in the land
mobile service downunder. The number of 4WD vehicles with Codans on and in
them proves that but again they are totally unsuited to the marine
envirnment. Codan doesn't even try to make a marinised adjustable antenna
that I know of.

BTW if you want to see inefficient antennas look to the Hams that do 160M
mobile. There is a hiding to nowhere as far as efficiency is concerned but
they are a hardy band of operators!

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

On 2005-03-27 07:06:10 +1000, "Jim Donohue" said:

John -

While the listed antenna are all sub-optimal on the lower bands the
difference in performance is marked if they are loaded reasonably well.

I doubt that the requirements of off shore racers should in any way
influence what cruiser do. Cruisers simply don't lose rigs. That is a
more due to the propensity of the racer to go all out even to the risk
of the rig. Every rational cruiser avoids stressing his rig...it just
makes life to difficult.

Note that jury rigged antennas or carrying some spare gizmo still
provide lots of opportunity for a cruiser to get out when needed even
after an unexpected disaster. .

It has been my experience that emergency use of the SSB is reasonably
common but that the cause is generally not a severely damaged boat.
Mostly its stuff like getting something to work or dealing with a
medical problem. Even on occassion have seen starters rebuilt at sea
with expert advice from a ham net.

Jim Donohue KO6MH amateur extra
"John Proctor" wrote in message
news:2005032704261916807%lost@nowhereorg...
On 2005-03-27 00:46:39 +1100, Larry W4CSC said:


SNIP

Jim, I think it is a matter of degree. One should be prepared for the
worst. A backup system must be available for reliable first time use
when the chips are down. Yes 90% of the time you will have no problem
using a backstay. The point I was trying to make is that there are
alternatives which can give good (notice I didn't say great!) service
which address other reliability issues.

On that note I think this topic has been done to death and there is
obviously a divergence of opinion. I know what I will do when I put HF
in my 37' Jeanneau SO.

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

Larry W4CSC wrote:

Terry Spragg wrote in news:RtSdnZBYQIYn-
:


Beeswax, I say!



Wonder why all the world's militarys don't run these amazing Outbacker
home-made-lookin' antennas?

Hell, I'm amazed Radio Moscow isn't using one!


Well, consider what a nuclear EMP would do to cheap solid state AE
voltage and current sensing circuitry. The military uses auto
bandswitched tapped coil selectors to tune the antenna stump, and
hang the mismatch, it's a vacuum tube output and rf amp reciever
world, laddy, when the nukes are going tactical.

Your car will die, your house will be dark, but the troops will
still be able to find the coffee truck.

You will be out in your driveway trying to fit your standby / backup
carurettor, distributor, points and coil, right? Don't forget to
stock up on duct tape and a year's supply of milled flour and
strawberry jam.

Terry K

Terry Spragg wrote in
:

Your car will die, your house will be dark, but the troops will
still be able to find the coffee truck.

You will be out in your driveway trying to fit your standby / backup
carurettor, distributor, points and coil, right? Don't forget to
stock up on duct tape and a year's supply of milled flour and
strawberry jam.

Terry K


Not here....My 1973 Mercedes 220 Diesel will run fine....except maybe for
the quartz clock, the only electronic gadget in the whole car! Wonder what
the EMP will do to the mechanical voltage regulator?? It may blow the
rectifiers in the alternator, but that's not important as the only thing
the battery is used for is starting and lighting.....

You guys watch too many sci-fi flicks. I used to work in a facility that
bombarded chips and then retested same. The test failures were discarded and
those that passed were considered hardened and were installed in missles and
silos. The greater percentage passed the tests, therefore your quartz clock
would probably survive.
G

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
Terry Spragg wrote in
:

Your car will die, your house will be dark, but the troops will
still be able to find the coffee truck.

You will be out in your driveway trying to fit your standby / backup
carurettor, distributor, points and coil, right? Don't forget to
stock up on duct tape and a year's supply of milled flour and
strawberry jam.

Terry K


Not here....My 1973 Mercedes 220 Diesel will run fine....except maybe for
the quartz clock, the only electronic gadget in the whole car! Wonder
what
the EMP will do to the mechanical voltage regulator?? It may blow the
rectifiers in the alternator, but that's not important as the only thing
the battery is used for is starting and lighting.....