I have run both the outbacker and Large Shakespeare whip on 20 meters
marine.

The outbacker was a test as a backup on a boat with a back stay antenna .

Neither antenna is in the same class as a backstay. The outbacker was
better than the whip...though the boat with the whip may well have had
ground problems.

Switching the outbacker and the backstay you could here the stations vanish.
It was still possible to work the states from off Baja but you needed
somebody on the state end with real good equipment.

After playing controller on Pac Sea Net for a few years the boats that get
out well almost exclusively have backstay antennas.

Jim Donohue

"John Proctor" wrote in message
news:2005032420245216807%lost@nowhereorg...
On 2005-03-24 15:09:27 +1100, Larry W4CSC said:

jeannette wrote in
:

That's one of the reason I like the Outbacker. Besides it's made in
Oz...

Jeannette


I've never been impressed by the Outbackers, nothing but hookup wire
wrapped around a fiberglass rod with plastic taps in the continuously
loaded coil whip. It's too short for a good radiation pattern below 20
meters with way too much loading and you can't put any real RF power to
it which will destroy the hookup wire it's made of. "Homebrew" comes to
mind under the shrink wrap exterior.

Some have commented they didn't like having to go out to change the taps.
I'm curious how they keep the salt out of the little holes from corroding
it all up.

The longest screwdriver antennas would make a MUCH more efficient HF
tunable antenna for all the bands as they have continuous coverage if we
could figure out how to keep from drowning their coils in seawater....

http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/1...90cf2ed1290b68
d5d1d

http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlux/ra...crewdriver.htm

http://www.dxengineering.com/Product...cID=8&DeptID=2

http://www.n2vz.com/
automatic control of screwdriver antennas....autotuner!

http://www.kj7u.com/
KJ7U's screwdriver with the rubber boot looks very promising for marine
use....

http://www.wb0w.com/tarheel/tarheel.htm
Tarheel says theirs is for marine use.

The key to all these antennas is they use a LARGE, EFFICIENT,
center-loaded coil with a continuous tap that allows you, or an
autotuner, to put the tuning of this antenna EXACTLY on your frequency,
not "close enough" like an outbacker. ANY frequency as the coil is
continously tuned, not banded.

The idea of tuning by remote control, from the nav station for instance,
is much nicer than having to go out to the outbacker in the weather on
the stern to fool around with that stupid tap.....

The longer the whip on top of it...the better because it reduces the
amount of loading coil necessary to tune it.....

Don't knock it til you try it! I would agree that the taps present a
problem in the maritime environment (possibly) but many hams down under
use the outbacker and swear by them. So unless you have first hand
experience using them your feelings count for nothing! Too many people
make judgements about products without trying them! No first hand
experience value of opinion = 0!

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

"Jim Donohue" wrote in
news:FkE0e.132$ZV5.56@fed1read05:

After playing controller on Pac Sea Net for a few years the boats that
get out well almost exclusively have backstay antennas.

Jim Donohue


There's a new QSL on Lionheart's nav station. Braggin' rights...(c;

Japan from Charleston on 20 meters, 14.208 Mhz. He was runnin' 100W. I
was running 150W. Backstay tuned with Icom AT-130 is 55' to the insulator.
Next time the mast is serviced, two new insulators are going to be
installed, one on each end of the triattic and a new cable installed from
the bottom of the top backstay insulator to the forward end of the
triattic, making it even longer with a horizontal top component, more like
a ship.

Longer is better, especially below 10 Mhz.

I'd take my modified, 650 watt TenTec Hercules II solid state linear on
trips in the boat, but the tuner is maxed out. POWER is our FRIEND....

It only draws 120A at 650W keydown on RTTY...(c;

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
"Jim Donohue" wrote in
news:FkE0e.132$ZV5.56@fed1read05:

After playing controller on Pac Sea Net for a few years the boats that
get out well almost exclusively have backstay antennas.

Jim Donohue


There's a new QSL on Lionheart's nav station. Braggin' rights...(c;

Japan from Charleston on 20 meters, 14.208 Mhz. He was runnin' 100W. I
was running 150W. Backstay tuned with Icom AT-130 is 55' to the
insulator.

Big deal. I have worked Australia and the south pacific on 20M with my 23'
whip.

Next time the mast is serviced, two new insulators are going to be
installed, one on each end of the triattic and a new cable installed from
the bottom of the top backstay insulator to the forward end of the
triattic, making it even longer with a horizontal top component, more like
a ship.

Longer is better, especially below 10 Mhz.

I'd take my modified, 650 watt TenTec Hercules II solid state linear on
trips in the boat, but the tuner is maxed out. POWER is our FRIEND....

It only draws 120A at 650W keydown on RTTY...(c;

"Larry W4CSC" wrote
I'd take my modified, 650 watt TenTec Hercules II solid state linear on
trips in the boat, but the tuner is maxed out. POWER is our FRIEND....

Then why QRP? :-)

It is consistency that matters. In general successful net operators
generally use beams, power and elevation. Even at that there comes the day
when you are still shut out. The nets work because they have multiple
operators thousands of miles apart.

You need to be able to make contact when you want or need to. Not when
conditions are perfect. I can often work Japan when conditions are
right..but what I really want is to work the S. Pacific well almost every
night.

Power is over-rated. You have to hear the other station. Does no good to
only be heard.

Whips are relatively effective on the large ships...but they have the
wonderful ground systems.

Outbackers and whips are simply compromises...nothing works like length.

Jim Donohue

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
"Jim Donohue" wrote in
news:FkE0e.132$ZV5.56@fed1read05:

After playing controller on Pac Sea Net for a few years the boats that
get out well almost exclusively have backstay antennas.

Jim Donohue


There's a new QSL on Lionheart's nav station. Braggin' rights...(c;

Japan from Charleston on 20 meters, 14.208 Mhz. He was runnin' 100W. I
was running 150W. Backstay tuned with Icom AT-130 is 55' to the
insulator.
Next time the mast is serviced, two new insulators are going to be
installed, one on each end of the triattic and a new cable installed from
the bottom of the top backstay insulator to the forward end of the
triattic, making it even longer with a horizontal top component, more like
a ship.

Longer is better, especially below 10 Mhz.

I'd take my modified, 650 watt TenTec Hercules II solid state linear on
trips in the boat, but the tuner is maxed out. POWER is our FRIEND....

It only draws 120A at 650W keydown on RTTY...(c;

Larry W4CSC wrote:

jeannette wrote in
:


That's one of the reason I like the Outbacker. Besides it's made in
Oz...

Jeannette



I've never been impressed by the Outbackers, nothing but hookup wire
wrapped around a fiberglass rod with plastic taps in the continuously
loaded coil whip. It's too short for a good radiation pattern below 20
meters with way too much loading and you can't put any real RF power to it
which will destroy the hookup wire it's made of. "Homebrew" comes to mind
under the shrink wrap exterior.


Short feeler to mine, Chuukker. That and a short counterpoise. Trail
an insulated wire in a hose for a "ground". Nichrome toaster wire
could take more heat, huh? It also unloads your Tx automatically if
the ae is too short.

Some have commented they didn't like having to go out to change the taps.
I'm curious how they keep the salt out of the little holes from corroding
it all up.


Beeswax, Billy. Lots of beeswax. Dunk the whole thing twice. A hot
iron will work as a screwdriver right through it.



The longest screwdriver antennas would make a MUCH more efficient HF
tunable antenna for all the bands as they have continuous coverage if we
could figure out how to keep from drowning their coils in seawater....

Beeswax, I say!

http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/1...90cf2ed1290b68
d5d1d

http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlux/ra...crewdriver.htm

http://www.dxengineering.com/Product...cID=8&DeptID=2

http://www.n2vz.com/
automatic control of screwdriver antennas....autotuner!

http://www.kj7u.com/
KJ7U's screwdriver with the rubber boot looks very promising for marine
use....

http://www.wb0w.com/tarheel/tarheel.htm
Tarheel says theirs is for marine use.

The key to all these antennas is they use a LARGE, EFFICIENT, center-loaded
coil with a continuous tap that allows you, or an autotuner, to put the
tuning of this antenna

stump


EXACTLY on your frequency, not "close enough" like
an outbacker. ANY frequency as the coil is continously tuned, not banded.

The idea of tuning by remote control, from the nav station for instance, is
much nicer than having to go out to the outbacker in the weather on the
stern to fool around with that stupid tap.....

Why is that? Why not change the tap in the cabin? The wire from the
autotuner is part of the radiating element array. The other end, the
floating counterpoise, could go through the side and trail behind.

One might think the forestay a better choise for an antenna element.


The longer the whip on top of it...the better because it reduces the amount
of loading coil necessary to tune it.....


In radio, as with hot rods, there is no substitute for linear
inches, displaced cubewise.

Changing the length of the trailed element will do some of the same,
could go auto with an electrolux type reel retractor and a sliding
contact, or a fish tape and a roller drive contactor / retractor wheel.

The sliding contacts are weak spots in all autotuners, especially if
you need a kilowatt to do your toeast. (Sorry, I found it innocent,
and I'm not changing it. -tk) A directional rig and polar chart can
do the job a lot cheaper, and is easier to fix. Besides, you got one
already, can't get rid of it, might as well learn to drive it. Turn
the boat to pass your traffic. A mechanical adjustment crank and
turns counter could keep a channel open if the auto tuner servo
should conk out. A reference table, previously tabulated, will
enable continued radio service at distant ranges and directions.

Why don't GPSs provide a wordwide notices text channel? You could
set a contact code to capture the text that's intended for "An
english sailboat" channel. Kinda like one half of a newsgroup service.

Terry K

In article kuX0e.244$ZV5.197@fed1read05,
"Jim Donohue" wrote:

It is consistency that matters. In general successful net operators
generally use beams, power and elevation. Even at that there comes the day
when you are still shut out. The nets work because they have multiple
operators thousands of miles apart.

You need to be able to make contact when you want or need to. Not when
conditions are perfect. I can often work Japan when conditions are
right..but what I really want is to work the S. Pacific well almost every
night.

Power is over-rated. You have to hear the other station. Does no good to
only be heard.

Whips are relatively effective on the large ships...but they have the
wonderful ground systems.

Outbackers and whips are simply compromises...nothing works like length.

Jim Donohue

Back in the day....all the West Coast Marine Electronics Techs used to
show the Big Bucks Yatch'it Owners that their very cool, shiney, new,
SSB Radio worked so good that they could even get KMI (Pt. Reyes, CA)
on 12 Mhz, anytime day, or night, with 150Watts....... Big deal,
KMI had Phased Rhombics, Multi-Kw Transmitters, and at the time. the
quietest Receiving Location in the Eastern Pacific. It didn't mean
squat, as far as how good the boat installation was. I have worked
KMI from the test bench, and the transceiver on a Bird Dummy Load.
All it takes is for the band to be really open, but if the band is
closed it takes a REALLY GOOD Antenna and RF GROUND System to do any
comunicating at all.

Any compromise on RF Ground, and Antenna is going to effect the
communications on poor band days...........the more compromised the
system is, the worse the communicating is going to be......



Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

Larry prefers brute force over skill.

"Vito" wrote in message
...
"Larry W4CSC" wrote
I'd take my modified, 650 watt TenTec Hercules II solid state linear on
trips in the boat, but the tuner is maxed out. POWER is our FRIEND....

Then why QRP? :-)

"Vito" wrote in
:

Then why QRP? :-)


They're only L-16 batteries....(c;

"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in
:

Larry prefers brute force over skill.


It's why BBC doesn't run 100 watts....