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"Jim Donohue" wrote in
news:kuX0e.244$ZV5.197@fed1read05:

Power is over-rated. You have to hear the other station. Does no
good to only be heard.

Ah, but when BOTH stations have power.....ahhhh....

Biggest linear I ever owned was a homebrew pair of 4-1000A tetrodes with
graphite plates on RTTY. Hmm....6000V at 950ma....That's about a kilowatt,
ain't it?....Ah fergit...

John Proctor wrote in
news:2005032617173316807%lost@nowhereorg:

Larry, I expected better from a licensed amateur. After all we amateurs
have been proving things that shouldn't work do for a long time. In the
end I guess you will be judged by your utterences. So keep the mouth
flapping.

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

The point is, national pride aside, the Outbacker is still a bunch of
hookup wire wrapped around a fiberglass rod with taps imbedded into the
shrink tubing that covers the hookup wire.

Continuously loaded antennas are very inefficient and produce far less E
field than antennas without continuous loading.

The shorter ANY antenna is less than 1/4 wavelength, the less and less it
radiates.....simple fact.....

On 2005-03-27 00:46:39 +1100, Larry W4CSC said:

John Proctor wrote in
news:2005032617173316807%lost@nowhereorg:

Larry, I expected better from a licensed amateur. After all we amateurs
have been proving things that shouldn't work do for a long time. In the
end I guess you will be judged by your utterences. So keep the mouth
flapping.

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

The point is, national pride aside, the Outbacker is still a bunch of
hookup wire wrapped around a fiberglass rod with taps imbedded into the
shrink tubing that covers the hookup wire.

Continuously loaded antennas are very inefficient and produce far less
E field than antennas without continuous loading.

The shorter ANY antenna is less than 1/4 wavelength, the less and less
it radiates.....simple fact.....

Thats true. However the discussion has been about a collection of
suboptimal antennas. Too short for lower SSB spectrum use.

Backstays, 23' whips and outbacker's are all too short for efficient
use on low HF. The original question asked was what is the best
approach. Best in this case (marine HF) must absolutely include
survivability as a marine SSB HF rig is predominantly a saftey item. A
backstay or any other rigging based structure as I pointed out is
inherently risky and therefore unacceptable to bodies such as ocean
racing organisations.

The screwdriver and antennas of similar design are effective in the
land mobile service downunder. The number of 4WD vehicles with Codans
on and in them proves that but again they are totally unsuited to the
marine envirnment. Codan doesn't even try to make a marinised
adjustable antenna that I know of.

BTW if you want to see inefficient antennas look to the Hams that do
160M mobile. There is a hiding to nowhere as far as efficiency is
concerned but they are a hardy band of operators!

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

John -

While the listed antenna are all sub-optimal on the lower bands the
difference in performance is marked if they are loaded reasonably well.

I doubt that the requirements of off shore racers should in any way
influence what cruiser do. Cruisers simply don't lose rigs. That is a more
due to the propensity of the racer to go all out even to the risk of the
rig. Every rational cruiser avoids stressing his rig...it just makes life
to difficult.

Note that jury rigged antennas or carrying some spare gizmo still provide
lots of opportunity for a cruiser to get out when needed even after an
unexpected disaster. .

It has been my experience that emergency use of the SSB is reasonably common
but that the cause is generally not a severely damaged boat. Mostly its
stuff like getting something to work or dealing with a medical problem.
Even on occassion have seen starters rebuilt at sea with expert advice from
a ham net.

Jim Donohue KO6MH amateur extra
"John Proctor" wrote in message
news:2005032704261916807%lost@nowhereorg...
On 2005-03-27 00:46:39 +1100, Larry W4CSC said:

John Proctor wrote in
news:2005032617173316807%lost@nowhereorg:

Larry, I expected better from a licensed amateur. After all we amateurs
have been proving things that shouldn't work do for a long time. In the
end I guess you will be judged by your utterences. So keep the mouth
flapping.

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

The point is, national pride aside, the Outbacker is still a bunch of
hookup wire wrapped around a fiberglass rod with taps imbedded into the
shrink tubing that covers the hookup wire.

Continuously loaded antennas are very inefficient and produce far less E
field than antennas without continuous loading.

The shorter ANY antenna is less than 1/4 wavelength, the less and less it
radiates.....simple fact.....

Thats true. However the discussion has been about a collection of
suboptimal antennas. Too short for lower SSB spectrum use.

Backstays, 23' whips and outbacker's are all too short for efficient use
on low HF. The original question asked was what is the best approach. Best
in this case (marine HF) must absolutely include survivability as a marine
SSB HF rig is predominantly a saftey item. A backstay or any other rigging
based structure as I pointed out is inherently risky and therefore
unacceptable to bodies such as ocean racing organisations.

The screwdriver and antennas of similar design are effective in the land
mobile service downunder. The number of 4WD vehicles with Codans on and in
them proves that but again they are totally unsuited to the marine
envirnment. Codan doesn't even try to make a marinised adjustable antenna
that I know of.

BTW if you want to see inefficient antennas look to the Hams that do 160M
mobile. There is a hiding to nowhere as far as efficiency is concerned but
they are a hardy band of operators!

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

On 2005-03-27 07:06:10 +1000, "Jim Donohue" said:

John -

While the listed antenna are all sub-optimal on the lower bands the
difference in performance is marked if they are loaded reasonably well.

I doubt that the requirements of off shore racers should in any way
influence what cruiser do. Cruisers simply don't lose rigs. That is a
more due to the propensity of the racer to go all out even to the risk
of the rig. Every rational cruiser avoids stressing his rig...it just
makes life to difficult.

Note that jury rigged antennas or carrying some spare gizmo still
provide lots of opportunity for a cruiser to get out when needed even
after an unexpected disaster. .

It has been my experience that emergency use of the SSB is reasonably
common but that the cause is generally not a severely damaged boat.
Mostly its stuff like getting something to work or dealing with a
medical problem. Even on occassion have seen starters rebuilt at sea
with expert advice from a ham net.

Jim Donohue KO6MH amateur extra
"John Proctor" wrote in message
news:2005032704261916807%lost@nowhereorg...
On 2005-03-27 00:46:39 +1100, Larry W4CSC said:

SNIP

Jim, I think it is a matter of degree. One should be prepared for the
worst. A backup system must be available for reliable first time use
when the chips are down. Yes 90% of the time you will have no problem
using a backstay. The point I was trying to make is that there are
alternatives which can give good (notice I didn't say great!) service
which address other reliability issues.

On that note I think this topic has been done to death and there is
obviously a divergence of opinion. I know what I will do when I put HF
in my 37' Jeanneau SO.

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

John Proctor wrote in
news:2005032710245316807%lost@nowhereorg:

Jim, I think it is a matter of degree. One should be prepared for the
worst. A backup system must be available for reliable first time use
when the chips are down. Yes 90% of the time you will have no problem
using a backstay. The point I was trying to make is that there are
alternatives which can give good (notice I didn't say great!) service
which address other reliability issues.

Good idea. Lionheart is equipped with a 406 Mhz EPIRB with its own GPS
receiver built right inside.....

If the mast comes down or other catastrophy happens, just push that little
button.....

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
John Proctor wrote in
news:2005032710245316807%lost@nowhereorg:

Jim, I think it is a matter of degree. One should be prepared for the
worst. A backup system must be available for reliable first time use
when the chips are down. Yes 90% of the time you will have no problem
using a backstay. The point I was trying to make is that there are
alternatives which can give good (notice I didn't say great!) service
which address other reliability issues.

Good idea. Lionheart is equipped with a 406 Mhz EPIRB with its own GPS
receiver built right inside.....

If the mast comes down or other catastrophy happens, just push that little
button.....

I'm not sure a dismasting rises to the level of a MAYDAY. I'd like to be
able
to be able to seek help and advise via SSB before resorting to declaring an
emergency.

DOug

In article ,
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote:

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
John Proctor wrote in
news:2005032710245316807%lost@nowhereorg:

Jim, I think it is a matter of degree. One should be prepared for the
worst. A backup system must be available for reliable first time use
when the chips are down. Yes 90% of the time you will have no problem
using a backstay. The point I was trying to make is that there are
alternatives which can give good (notice I didn't say great!) service
which address other reliability issues.

Good idea. Lionheart is equipped with a 406 Mhz EPIRB with its own GPS
receiver built right inside.....

If the mast comes down or other catastrophy happens, just push that little
button.....

I'm not sure a dismasting rises to the level of a MAYDAY. I'd like to be
able
to be able to seek help and advise via SSB before resorting to declaring an
emergency.

DOug

that is why you have a coiled up dipole antenna in the emergency kit,
under the bunk, that can be strung up with what is left of the mast,
or broomstick, as the case may be..............

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @