Armond,

Those are "high speed ferries", not ships. They involve a whole different
set of operating parameters than ships, including stopping distance.
In dealing with them and discussing them, you need to realize and understand
that comparing them to normal commercial traffic is comparing "apples to
oranges"....., same applies to standard tugs and Z-drive or Voight
Schneider.

otn

"Armond Perretta" wrote in message

I am not sure where you operate, but it's worth noting that there are a
number of situations where one encounters commercial vessels that
routinely
operate at greater than 40 knots.

I have been sailing Bay of Fundy for quite a few years now. This is an
area
where fog is common, and also an area where the "cat" ferries transit from
the US over to Nova Scotia. These beasts are over 300 feet long and have
a
cruising speed of near (or perhaps over) 50 knots.

Several people have been killed by them in the past few years. Indeed, I
had the devil of a time getting the attention of the Bar Harbor - Yarmouth
ferry in high visibility conditions in one particular instance. The last
I
heard there was a lot of pressure from operators to add this type of
service
in Long Island Sound, a very high traffic area.

in message t, otnmbrd
') wrote:

Armond,

Those are "high speed ferries", not ships.

As someone who also sails in an area with 'high speed ferries', I
disagree very strongly. They're ships, and frankly they're the most
frightening ships out there. And because they operate typically across
busy straits, very often in order to get somewhere you _have_ to cross
their track.


--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; better than your average performing pineapple

otnmbrd wrote:
Armond,

Those are "high speed ferries", not ships. They involve a whole
different set of operating parameters than ships, including
stopping distance. In dealing with them and discussing them, you
need to realize and understand that comparing them to normal
commercial traffic is comparing "apples to oranges"....., same
applies to standard tugs and Z-drive or Voight Schneider.

Well, I won't defend a statement I never made. Still, I wonder how much
difference it makes to the target whether he or she is killed by a "ferry"
or a "ship" (ignoring for the moment that many folks cannot accurately
define "ship.")

I can tell you from my own experience that contacting and staying
out of the way of commercial vessels, no matter what their type or
classification, is not at all simple. What it boils down to, it seems to
me, is that the small boat operator should get out of the way and worry
later about the effectiveness of lights, communication devices, warning
systems, etc. In the interim, one should treat the rules as just what they
a rules.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/

"Armond Perretta" wrote in message news:

Well, I won't defend a statement I never made. Still, I wonder how much
difference it makes to the target whether he or she is killed by a "ferry"
or a "ship" (ignoring for the moment that many folks cannot accurately
define "ship.")

Oops, did I get the wrong writer?


I can tell you from my own experience that contacting and staying
out of the way of commercial vessels, no matter what their type or
classification, is not at all simple. What it boils down to, it seems to
me, is that the small boat operator should get out of the way and worry
later about the effectiveness of lights, communication devices, warning
systems, etc. In the interim, one should treat the rules as just what
they
a rules.

It's not easy from either perspective.
The one bit of good news is that under most cases, a large ship or G
smaller ferry will tend to be on a set and predictable route (exceptions
noted) so that you will at least have a reasonable idea of where from, where
to, and possible points of intended course change when estimating how a
particular sighting may affect your course.
On the other hand, in coastal waters where you run into a good deal of small
boat traffic, from the ship point of view, it's all too frequently difficult
to tell from,to, course change points, for small vessels which adds a great
point of concern when calculating options.
G Personally, I liked the old submarine rule, that made them stay clear of
all ship traffic when surfaced, due to their visibility ....... might be
great for big ship, small boat meeting situations, though it'd open a "can
of worms" in other respects.

otn

otnmbrd wrote:
"Armond Perretta" wrote in message news:

I can tell you from my own experience that contacting and staying
out of the way of commercial vessels, no matter what their type or
classification, is not at all simple. What it boils down to, it
seems to me, is that the small boat operator should get out of the
way and worry later about the effectiveness of lights,
communication devices, warning systems, etc ...

The one bit of good news is that under most cases, a large ship or
G smaller ferry will tend to be on a set and predictable route
(exceptions noted) so that you will at least have a reasonable idea
of where from, where to, and possible points of intended course
change when estimating how a particular sighting may affect your
course ...

There seem to be large numbers of small boat operators who actually believe
that commercial vessels will, in the general case, take action to avoid
small boats. Although few commercial vessels will intentionally neglect
taking appropriate action, it is indeed foolish to assume that the onus is
on the commercial vessel.

At the same time I have on several occasions encountered commercial vessels
inshore who "wandered" in the same way that pleasure boaters are wont to do
(as you mentioned above). Chief among these are commercial fishermen of
course, but I recall several cases where large cruise ships, evidently
engaged in casino-related activities, seemed to be chasing me all over the
place no matter how much I tried to pass by or avoid getting too close.
This is something one encounters quite a bit in south Florida, but the same
thing has happened to me in the Boston entrance lanes and off Halifax NS.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/

Armond Perretta wrote:
otnmbrd wrote:

"Armond Perretta" wrote in message news:

I can tell you from my own experience that contacting and staying
out of the way of commercial vessels, no matter what their type or
classification, is not at all simple. What it boils down to, it
seems to me, is that the small boat operator should get out of the
way and worry later about the effectiveness of lights,
communication devices, warning systems, etc ...

The one bit of good news is that under most cases, a large ship or
G smaller ferry will tend to be on a set and predictable route
(exceptions noted) so that you will at least have a reasonable idea
of where from, where to, and possible points of intended course
change when estimating how a particular sighting may affect your
course ...


There seem to be large numbers of small boat operators who actually believe
that commercial vessels will, in the general case, take action to avoid
small boats. Although few commercial vessels will intentionally neglect
taking appropriate action, it is indeed foolish to assume that the onus is
on the commercial vessel.

BG The "onus" is on the commercial vessel to treat every size/type
vessel, the same, under the rules.
Now that we've got "that" bit of legal claptrap out of the way ..... In
the real world, most "ship" people have learned that when they run
across a bunch of weekend recreational boaters, their safest approach is
to maintain course and speed and save the "course change" for a point
after the whistle when in extremis.
Having said this, when offshore or meeting a lone "small boater" where
there are no immediate hazards to navigation for the ship, I'd say you
have a 50/50 chance the ship will gladly maneuver, as long as your
heading remains consistent and they indeed have seen you at a point
where they have sufficient time to assess and make a maneuver.
At any rate, as a small boater, if you always assume that big guy is
working under the "gross tonnage" rule, you shouldn't have too many
problems.

At the same time I have on several occasions encountered commercial vessels
inshore who "wandered" in the same way that pleasure boaters are wont to do
(as you mentioned above). Chief among these are commercial fishermen of
course, but I recall several cases where large cruise ships, evidently
engaged in casino-related activities, seemed to be chasing me all over the
place no matter how much I tried to pass by or avoid getting too close.
This is something one encounters quite a bit in south Florida, but the same
thing has happened to me in the Boston entrance lanes and off Halifax NS.


You'll note in my above I stated "exceptions noted". You will always be
apt to run across some large vessel that is "wandering". My best
advice..... stay well clear!
G Commercial fishermen. I forget at times that we all may have
different views as to what constitutes "commercial".
A commercial fisherman is indeed "commercial", but I treat them with
"small boats" except that I have far fewer concerns when dealing with
them, as I am generally comfortable with meeting them, especially when
it's a group, that they will stay clear of me .... but YOU should not
feel the same..... and if it's a one on one open ocean condition I treat
them under the "rules".
As always, trust no one but yourself, to maneuver to avoid, under any
conditions, and note that my comments are mainly meant to increase your
awareness of the possibilities .... not as gospel for all operators.

otn

Otnmbrd wrote:
G Commercial fishermen. I forget at times that we all may have
different views as to what constitutes "commercial".
A commercial fisherman is indeed "commercial", but I treat them with
"small boats" except that I have far fewer concerns when dealing with
them, as I am generally comfortable with meeting them, especially when
it's a group, that they will stay clear of me .... but YOU should not
feel the same..... and if it's a one on one open ocean condition I treat
them under the "rules".

Surely you should be keeping clear of them (assuming they are "engaged in
fishing")?

--
Nikki Locke, Trumphurst Ltd. PC & Unix consultancy & programming
http://www.trumphurst.com/

"Nikki Locke" wrote in message
...
Otnmbrd wrote:
G Commercial fishermen. I forget at times that we all may have
different views as to what constitutes "commercial".
A commercial fisherman is indeed "commercial", but I treat them with
"small boats" except that I have far fewer concerns when dealing with
them, as I am generally comfortable with meeting them, especially when
it's a group, that they will stay clear of me .... but YOU should not
feel the same..... and if it's a one on one open ocean condition I treat
them under the "rules".

Surely you should be keeping clear of them (assuming they are "engaged in
fishing")?

G Surely.....
The problem is that frequently, as mentioned above, you run into them
fishing as a fleet or group.
If possible, and you've seen them soon enough, have sea room, can figure the
general movement of the "group", etc., then you can alter course out around
the "group".
In reality, what frequently happens is that you find yourself moving through
the group and at any one time you may be on a collision course with multiple
targets.
At times like this, if the ship holds it's course and speed, then all the
fishing boats know exactly what to expect from the ship and they can
maneuver in a way that best suits their needs ...... not exactly legal, but
it works.
The same applies to a ship running across a group of recreational boaters.

otn

Armond Perretta wrote:
Well, I won't defend a statement I never made. Still, I wonder how much
difference it makes to the target whether he or she is killed by a "ferry"
or a "ship" (ignoring for the moment that many folks cannot accurately
define "ship.")

A ship has three square rigged masts. I thought everyone knew that!

--
Nikki Locke, Trumphurst Ltd. PC & Unix consultancy & programming
http://www.trumphurst.com/

Nikki Locke wrote:
Armond Perretta wrote:
... I wonder
how much difference it makes to the target whether he or she is
killed by a "ferry" or a "ship" (ignoring for the moment that many
folks cannot accurately define "ship.")

A ship has three square rigged masts. I thought everyone knew that!

I am afraid you are a bit overconfident about this.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/