|
I figure that most cruising sailboats, even those keeping a good lookout
won't spot a white superstructure at 9 miles but will probably spot a hull at 5 or so miles. The numbers I used were "best case" scenario straight from Bowditch. The reality is that most sailors will likely spot a surface contact at ranges more like what you've shown. Nobody in the commercial fleet runs at 32-36 knots, especially not tankers! The very fastest container ships and LNG carriers are around 25-27 knots. Cruise ships are slower, around 22-23 knots top speed and most tankers are slower still. The exception would have to be the SL-7 Fast Sealift ships which did 33 knots on trials. I didn't mean to imply that -all- big ships operate at speeds over 30 knots, I was trying to make a point in reply to the original posters question and some of the misconceived replies, ie. "at least an hour will pass from when I see a contact on the horizon to when it will hit me". My point is that ships at sea operate at a wide variety of speeds, even in excess of 30+ knots, and as a cruiser you need to be aware of this. As for "high speed" ships out there, I think you guys are off on this. All the newer ships are being built to operate at 30 knots or greater. There are a number of "fast" container and oil carrier ships in the works, and shipbuilders are starting to deliver "fast" ferries that will operate at 40+ knots. And it won't stop there, I've read that the designers have plans for ships that will operate at 50 to 60 knots. See my post above. I think a lot of flag of convenience ships don't have their radar on all the time, probably to save the cost of replacing the magnetron. That's not been my experience at all, but you're welcome to believe what you want. -- =-------------------------------------------------= Renewontime A FREE email reminder service for licensed mariners http://www.renewontime.com =-------------------------------------------------= |
Could you tell us what is a sufficient RADAR target?
I'm afraid I can't give you any substantive help shopping for a RADAR reflector. There was a long thread on this a couple of weeks ago that might be helpful. They say that in my area many commercial ships from a certain country do not really keep RADAR watch, only listen to a possible radar warning while reading magazines and having tea. Does that seem possible? Possible? Anything is possible, but as I've posted earlier, that has not been my experience. There have been exceptions though, as I posted earlier. Where would you like the yachts to have their navigation lights? Masthead or deck level? Masthead is seen from further away, but misleads with regard to distance. By all means, I'd rig the biggest, brightest navigation lights you can either at the masthead (tri-color if the size of your yacht allows it) or the "red over green" additional lights on your mast. More information on the proper location of these lights can be found in COLREGS. -- =-------------------------------------------------= Renewontime A FREE email reminder service for licensed mariners http://www.renewontime.com =-------------------------------------------------= |
I missed this one:
Not in my experience. I've often called up passing merchant vessels at sea on VHF 16 and it usually takes several calls for about 10 minutes before _some_ will reply. I've asked how my visibility on radar is and got the reply: "let me warm it up....". I won't try to make excuses for how others may stand their watch (and yes, I've got my share of similar stories), but would only suggest that there are other possible reasons for why you aren't getting responses to your hails on 16, including the possibility that they did not receive your hail, the watch officer didn't speak English, or that they decided it wasn't necessary to respond. -- =-------------------------------------------------= Renewontime A FREE email reminder service for licensed mariners http://www.renewontime.com =-------------------------------------------------= |
Dag Stenberg wrote:
In rec.boats.cruising renewontime dot com wrote: The problem for merchant ships is that small sailing vessels are just hard to see. VERY hard to see. They usually present a poor RADAR target and have dim or no navigation lights. Could you tell us what is a sufficient RADAR target? I found an old article: http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Stud...eflector_2.htm according to which my Mobri "does not perform well". They say that in my area many commercial ships from a certain country do not really keep RADAR watch, only listen to a possible radar warning while reading magazines and having tea. Does that seem possible? To get a radar warning alarm, they would need to have the radar turned on and operating. However, if you are asking if someone is standing by the radar at all times watching it, the answer is, no. Where would you like the yachts to have their navigation lights? Masthead or deck level? Masthead is seen from further away, but misleads with regard to distance. Dag Stenberg Where the rules allow, the higher the better. Don't worry about them misleading as to distance as much as worrying about being seen at a distance. A great secondary ID method for sailboats at night is lighting up your sails with a flashlight, etc.. Generally this will give a brighter target without destroying visibility of your running lights. otn |
"Evan Gatehouse" wrote in message news: Third, it's been my experience (30+ years at sea) that almost every merchant vessel at sea maintains a -very good- watch and lookout. There Not in my experience. I've often called up passing merchant vessels at sea on VHF 16 and it usually takes several calls for about 10 minutes before _some_ will reply. I've asked how my visibility on radar is and got the reply: "let me warm it up....". Couple points here to keep in mind. On most ships, English is not the "first" language and the quality of "English" lessens as you go from Master to 3rd Mate. If you run across a ship that doesn't have at least one radar running, normally you will find that they will be on standby, which means no "warm-up" needed. However, depending on the set, there's a good chance that the set itself will not be set on a range where you will be seen if you are close (at sea range, 12 or 24 mi.) so adjustments will be, or may be needed. Also, keep in mind that depending on the radar in use (10cm or 3cm) in some conditions you may not be visible at all due to sea return or age and condition of the set, plus the particular operators abilities. Radar is no more foolproof than anything else, so just because one ship says he has no problem or a great problem seeing you, doesn't mean ALL will have the same results, even under the same conditions. otn |
Steve Firth wrote:
Correct, the Mobri has always done badly it plain doesn't work. IIRC when studies were done of the Mobri at Fort Cumberland they actually reduced the radar cross section of the yacht compared to having no reflector. clearly a "stealth" technology then, best avoid the US 6th fleet or they will shoot on sight. -- Lithium ion internal and external batteries. Internal from £30 External from £75 (trade) All batteries factory new and guaranteed. http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/ e-mail (www.rot13.com) |
"renewontime dot com" wrote in message news: I didn't mean to imply that -all- big ships operate at speeds over 30 knots, I was trying to make a point in reply to the original posters question and some of the misconceived replies, ie. "at least an hour will pass from when I see a contact on the horizon to when it will hit me". My point is that ships at sea operate at a wide variety of speeds, even in excess of 30+ knots, and as a cruiser you need to be aware of this. Very true As for "high speed" ships out there, I think you guys are off on this. All the newer ships are being built to operate at 30 knots or greater. There are a number of "fast" container and oil carrier ships in the works, and shipbuilders are starting to deliver "fast" ferries that will operate at 40+ knots. And it won't stop there, I've read that the designers have plans for ships that will operate at 50 to 60 knots. The number of ships of any type running at 30+K is small and will remain so for some time. Biggest problem becomes HP to get them to that speed versus fuel consumption. (one reason the the previously mentioned SL-7"s are now all US Gov.... they're the only ones who can afford or justify running them). High speed ferries, on the other hand, running in the high 30's are becoming "a dime a dozen". Newer technologies, as you say, are on the drawing boards. See my post above. I think a lot of flag of convenience ships don't have their radar on all the time, probably to save the cost of replacing the magnetron. That's not been my experience at all, but you're welcome to believe what you want. G I'm probably in between both of you on this. First off, the problem is less "flag of convenience" and more "owner, operator". Since ships all have at least 2 radars, both of which are at least on "standby" at sea (exceptions noted), coupled with ever increasing enforcement and penalties for non use, the old "magnetron" excuse is falling by the wayside. However, it's not a perfect world and there are still too many fools out there running with radars turned off in open ocean conditions. otn |
In rec.boats.cruising Steve Firth wrote:
The best on test was the Firdell Blipper. Not in the 1995 test ( http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Stud...eflector_2.htm) Dag Stenberg |
I did like the scale used for measuring the return from "radar flag", though
I can't recall it as an ISO measurement from my days as a student. Presumably the scale runs Coot, Duck, Swan, Albatross, Dumbo... And accounts for the saying "Less chance than a duck in the fog" Could you tell us what is a sufficient RADAR target? I found an old article: http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Stud...eflector_2.htm according to which my Mobri "does not perform well". |
renewontime dot com wrote:
snip I didn't mean to imply that -all- big ships operate at speeds over 30 knots, I was trying to make a point in reply to the original posters question and some of the misconceived replies, ie. "at least an hour will pass from when I see a contact on the horizon to when it will hit me". My point is that ships at sea operate at a wide variety of speeds, even in excess of 30+ knots, and as a cruiser you need to be aware of this. As for "high speed" ships out there, I think you guys are off on this. All the newer ships are being built to operate at 30 knots or greater. There are a number of "fast" container and oil carrier ships in the works, and shipbuilders are starting to deliver "fast" ferries that will operate at 40+ knots. And it won't stop there, I've read that the designers have plans for ships that will operate at 50 to 60 knots. Fascinating. I'd like to learn more - can you point me at any web sites? I can't find anything much over 25kts. Thanks Andy. |
Andy Champ wrote:
renewontime dot com wrote: snip I didn't mean to imply that -all- big ships operate at speeds over 30 knots, I was trying to make a point in reply to the original posters question and some of the misconceived replies, ie. "at least an hour will pass from when I see a contact on the horizon to when it will hit me". My point is that ships at sea operate at a wide variety of speeds, even in excess of 30+ knots, and as a cruiser you need to be aware of this. As for "high speed" ships out there, I think you guys are off on this. All the newer ships are being built to operate at 30 knots or greater. There are a number of "fast" container and oil carrier ships in the works, and shipbuilders are starting to deliver "fast" ferries that will operate at 40+ knots. And it won't stop there, I've read that the designers have plans for ships that will operate at 50 to 60 knots. Fascinating. I'd like to learn more - can you point me at any web sites? I can't find anything much over 25kts. fast = expensive, expensive means no go in commercial shipping unless the cargo is very very time sensitive, so that's all bulk and refrigerated and container loads out, you're pretty much down to passenger stuff and short run stuff like ferries. http://www.nassco.com/cdc/csp.html oh yes, don't forget the military, they can go very very fast, but they get a bollocking for the fuel consumed so need special permission, eg war footing. -- Lithium ion internal and external batteries. Internal from £30 External from £75 (trade) All batteries factory new and guaranteed. http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/ e-mail (www.rot13.com) |
Fascinating. I'd like to learn more - can you point me at any web
sites? I can't find anything much over 25kts. Our site has a news section, or try http://www.marinelink.com/main/main.asp but I did a quick search on the net and didn't find much. Better to get a subscription to "Maritime Reporter" and "MarineNews", in the current issues there are several articles about "high speed" vessels. -- =-------------------------------------------------= Renewontime A FREE email reminder service for licensed mariners http://www.renewontime.com =-------------------------------------------------= |
On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 17:08:21 GMT, otnmbrd
wrote: A great secondary ID method for sailboats at night is lighting up your sails with a flashlight, etc.. Generally this will give a brighter target without destroying visibility of your running lights. Here's how I "get attention" on Lake Ontario if I see I am closing with a lake freighter at night. 1) Running lights are always on at dusk. 2) Mast top trilight is on, too, although I am only obliged to have one or the other. 3) If under power or motorsailing, I have the steaming light on at the spreaders. 4) If I detect no change, I will hail the ship on 16. If no response, I will hail them on 13, which is sometimes monitored more closely in my area. If I get a response, I will give my position in lat/lon and my bearing to them, my speed and my suggested reciprocal bearing (Uh, on the port quarter and closing, Skipper...that's me!) 5) I will shine a million candela spot on my sail if sailing or down my deck if under jib alone and/or under power. I will flick my anchor light. I will fire a bloody flare at them, duck their stern and report them to the Coast Guard, giving time, lat/lon and other details. Only some of the above have ever been necessary, but I have gotten to within two NM before being seen on light air nights with a full moon, and have not shown well on their radars...basically, I had to give them a vector to follow to see me. None of the above would be possible were I below not keeping a watch. "They can't see you" is my default assumption. COLREGS might help my widow get a better settlement, but I will get out of the way of shipping unless I have positive proof they've seen ME. It does give me a huge appreciation for WWII destroyers that sank surfaced U-boats at a couple of thousand yards at night in the Atlantic. The conning tower of a U-boat is a much worse target than a white decked sailboat. |
rhys wrote:
1) Running lights are always on at dusk. 2) Mast top trilight is on, too, although I am only obliged to have one or the other. Required to have one *or* the other, as far as I know, as otherwise you'd be showing the lights of some other type of vessel. In practice, though, I'm sure anyone watching would be able to tell the difference between you and a fishing boat/dredger/pilot boat or whatever. Pete |
On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 21:58:42 +0000, Andy Champ
wrote: renewontime dot com wrote: snip I didn't mean to imply that -all- big ships operate at speeds over 30 knots, I was trying to make a point in reply to the original posters question and some of the misconceived replies, ie. "at least an hour will pass from when I see a contact on the horizon to when it will hit me". My point is that ships at sea operate at a wide variety of speeds, even in excess of 30+ knots, and as a cruiser you need to be aware of this. As for "high speed" ships out there, I think you guys are off on this. All the newer ships are being built to operate at 30 knots or greater. There are a number of "fast" container and oil carrier ships in the works, and shipbuilders are starting to deliver "fast" ferries that will operate at 40+ knots. And it won't stop there, I've read that the designers have plans for ships that will operate at 50 to 60 knots. Fascinating. I'd like to learn more - can you point me at any web sites? I can't find anything much over 25kts. Lok up the Cat Ferry between Maine and Nova Scotia. It has a web site with schedules. Thanks Andy. Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a Ask not with whom the buck stops . . . |
rhys wrote:
Here's how I "get attention" on Lake Ontario if I see I am closing with a lake freighter at night. 1) Running lights are always on at dusk. 2) Mast top trilight is on, too, although I am only obliged to have one or the other. I don't want to be a hard case on this, but the fact is that you are required to have one _or_ the other, and there is no room for experimentation. We have had discussions here in the past about this type of thing. I call it "improvisational lighting" and I don't see any difference between making up the lighting rules as one goes along, and making up the crossing or overtaking rules as one goes along. This kind of thing is largely why most commercial operators have such low opinions of recreational sailors. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/ |
Armond Perretta wrote:
We have had discussions here in the past about this type of thing. I call it "improvisational lighting" and I don't see any difference between making up the lighting rules as one goes along, and making up the crossing or overtaking rules as one goes along. This kind of thing is largely why most commercial operators have such low opinions of recreational sailors. This has always interested me. Clearly the rules state that you should *only* show the correct lights. However If I really thought that showing incorrect lights was the *only* way to be seen I'd do it like a shot. I'd much rather confuse a ship than scrape his barnacles off with my flesh. Whether or not there could ever be such a case I don't know. |
On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:44:07 -0500, rhys wrote:
On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 17:08:21 GMT, otnmbrd wrote: A great secondary ID method for sailboats at night is lighting up your sails with a flashlight, etc.. Generally this will give a brighter target without destroying visibility of your running lights. Here's how I "get attention" on Lake Ontario if I see I am closing with a lake freighter at night. 1) Running lights are always on at dusk. 2) Mast top trilight is on, too, although I am only obliged to have one or the other. 3) If under power or motorsailing, I have the steaming light on at the spreaders. 4) If I detect no change, I will hail the ship on 16. If no response, I will hail them on 13, which is sometimes monitored more closely in my area. If I get a response, I will give my position in lat/lon and my bearing to them, my speed and my suggested reciprocal bearing (Uh, on the port quarter and closing, Skipper...that's me!) 5) I will shine a million candela spot on my sail if sailing or down my deck if under jib alone and/or under power. I will flick my anchor light. I will fire a bloody flare at them, duck their stern and report them to the Coast Guard, giving time, lat/lon and other details. Only some of the above have ever been necessary, but I have gotten to within two NM before being seen on light air nights with a full moon, and have not shown well on their radars...basically, I had to give them a vector to follow to see me. None of the above would be possible were I below not keeping a watch. "They can't see you" is my default assumption. COLREGS might help my widow get a better settlement, but I will get out of the way of shipping unless I have positive proof they've seen ME. It does give me a huge appreciation for WWII destroyers that sank surfaced U-boats at a couple of thousand yards at night in the Atlantic. The conning tower of a U-boat is a much worse target than a white decked sailboat. Rhys, Why on earth do you bother with all that? I too, sail Lake Ontario, out of Port Credit. I merely follow two basic rules of my own, one is, "Might is right" and the other is, "Don't play with the big boys." This applies both by day and night. Procedure is simple, identify lake freighter, not too difficult, determine course of lake freighter, again, not too difficult, and, if necessary, adjust my own course to take me astern of lake freighter. I don't really care whether or not they see me, if I can see them, I'll stay out of their way. The crews of the lake freighters are, after all, making their living by sailing that ship, I on the other hand, am merely playing around. Also, my vessel is far more maneuverable than theirs, so it's easier for me to take avoiding action. I agree whole-heartedly that keeping the proper watch is of prime importance, the absence of such watch keeping could be fatal. Destroyers, frigates and corvettes that protected the convoys, always fired star-shells first to illuminate the target. To hit a U-boat whether by day or night was a matter of superb gunnery plus an inordinate amount of luck. The main purpose was to drive them back into the depths where they could do little harm, slow them down and go in for a depth-charge attack to keep them down. On the radar that was in use then, a steel sub would show up much more clearly than any sail-boat, with or without radar reflector. Jan "If you can't take a joke,you shouldn't have joined" |
I don't want to be a hard case on this, but the fact is that you are
required to have one _or_ the other, and there is no room for experimentation. Armond is exactly right on this, I'm sure most folks have seen any number of -wrong- navigation light combinations/setups. The potential problem (besides a citation from the CG) is that your lights may very well be misinterpreted or misunderstood and an even more dangerous situation may result. On a personal side, it shows the whole sailing community just how unprofessional and lubberly you are. Just don't do it. There are many alternatives for greater nightime visibility, including: 1. Use bigger and/or brighter navigation lights. The guidelines in COLREGS indicate the -minimum- range of visibility, there is no maximum. 2. Mount your lights higher soas to increase the likelyhood of being seen at further distances. 3. Have a spotlight at the ready, and shine it on your sails when you see ships in the distance. 4. Have white parachute flares at the ready, (white flares are used to indicate risk of collision). 5. Do NOT use a "mast head strobe light" at sea, this is an International distress signal. 6. Use a big masthead "tri-light" if your yacht's size allows it. 7. Use the "red over green" additional lights on your mast (see COLREGS for restrictions on their use). And by all means, stand an around the clock, seamanlike watch, including: 1. Have at least one lookout posted at all times. 2. Have binoculars handy to identify contacts and their light configurations. 3. Learn how to determine CPA (Closest Point of Approach) by visual bearings alone (see Bowditch and/or Chapmans). 4. Learn and know the Nautical Rules of the Road. 5. Have your VHF radio on and monitoring channels 16 and 13. If your VHF is DSC capable, make sure it's installed properly and learn how to use it. (BTW, VHF DSC -may- be your single best way to get a ship's attention in the event of a potential collision.) 6. If your yacht is fitted with one, have your RADAR on and learn how to determine CPA, contact course/speed, and course to avoid. If your yacht doesn't have RADAR, you should seriously consider getting one. And one last thing: NEVER leave port without a 406 EPIRB, and test it monthly. If you and your yacht are not prepared to do these, then you are not ready or fit to go to sea. -- =-------------------------------------------------= Renewontime A FREE email reminder service for licensed mariners http://www.renewontime.com =-------------------------------------------------= |
On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:44:07 -0500, rhys wrote:
"They can't see you" is my default assumption. COLREGS might help my widow get a better settlement, but I will get out of the way of shipping unless I have positive proof they've seen ME. That's the same approach I take, just like on a bicycle or motorcycle. Where I usually encounter them (Lake Ontario approaches to the St. Lawrence) they don't have too many maneuvering options anyway. Ryk |
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:15:16 -0500, Jan
wrote: Procedure is simple, identify lake freighter, not too difficult, determine course of lake freighter, again, not too difficult, and, if necessary, adjust my own course to take me astern of lake freighter. The freighters are pretty predictable in their actions most of the time. OTOH we encountered a bunch of Kingston Class Frigates out on Lake Ontario in 2003 doing distinctly peculiar things in terms of changes in speed and direction. No doubt they knew what they were about to do and why, but I was keeping a pretty close watch because I couldn't predict their actions. (They were never much closer than a mile away.) Ryk |
Andy Champ wrote:
Fascinating. I'd like to learn more - can you point me at any web sites? I can't find anything much over 25kts. It's academic, there's only so much fear I can muster for something as visible as a block of flats traveling at the speed of a Vespa! |
Evan Gatehouse wrote:
Nobody in the commercial fleet runs at 32-36 knots, especially not tankers! The very fastest container ships and LNG carriers are around 25-27 knots. Cruise ships are slower, around 22-23 knots top speed and most tankers are slower still. The exception would have to be the SL-7 Fast Sealift ships which did 33 knots on trials. I am not sure where you operate, but it's worth noting that there are a number of situations where one encounters commercial vessels that routinely operate at greater than 40 knots. I have been sailing Bay of Fundy for quite a few years now. This is an area where fog is common, and also an area where the "cat" ferries transit from the US over to Nova Scotia. These beasts are over 300 feet long and have a cruising speed of near (or perhaps over) 50 knots. Several people have been killed by them in the past few years. Indeed, I had the devil of a time getting the attention of the Bar Harbor - Yarmouth ferry in high visibility conditions in one particular instance. The last I heard there was a lot of pressure from operators to add this type of service in Long Island Sound, a very high traffic area. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/ |
I can't say how fast ships travel in general but acording to my shipping
papers the sort of average container ship carrying my latest shipment of anchors left the dock at Le Harve, France at 13:15 UTC on February 10 and tied up at Wando Terminal Charleston, SC on February 16 at 11:21 UTC. That is 5 days 22 hours and 6 minutes or about 142 hours. Great circle route between LeHarve and Charleston is 3,820 nautical miles so the average speed was 26.9 knots. That assumes that they took a short cut through the desert across the NW corner of Africa and manouvered at full speed in port. :-) However, from Wando terminal to the pickup dock in Savannah, a distance of 111 statuate miles took 6 days and 4 hours or 148 hours for an average speed of 0.75 MPH. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com "Andy Champ" wrote in message ... renewontime dot com wrote: snip I didn't mean to imply that -all- big ships operate at speeds over 30 knots, I was trying to make a point in reply to the original posters question and some of the misconceived replies, ie. "at least an hour will pass from when I see a contact on the horizon to when it will hit me". My point is that ships at sea operate at a wide variety of speeds, even in excess of 30+ knots, and as a cruiser you need to be aware of this. As for "high speed" ships out there, I think you guys are off on this. All the newer ships are being built to operate at 30 knots or greater. There are a number of "fast" container and oil carrier ships in the works, and shipbuilders are starting to deliver "fast" ferries that will operate at 40+ knots. And it won't stop there, I've read that the designers have plans for ships that will operate at 50 to 60 knots. Fascinating. I'd like to learn more - can you point me at any web sites? I can't find anything much over 25kts. Thanks Andy. |
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:36:43 -0500, Ryk wrote:
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:15:16 -0500, Jan wrote: Procedure is simple, identify lake freighter, not too difficult, determine course of lake freighter, again, not too difficult, and, if necessary, adjust my own course to take me astern of lake freighter. The freighters are pretty predictable in their actions most of the time. OTOH we encountered a bunch of Kingston Class Frigates out on Lake Ontario in 2003 doing distinctly peculiar things in terms of changes in speed and direction. No doubt they knew what they were about to do and why, but I was keeping a pretty close watch because I couldn't predict their actions. (They were never much closer than a mile away.) Ryk Agreed, they were worth keeping an eye on. However, Naval vessels have far more crew than commercial vessels, consequently there is usually, unless the practice has changed, several physical look-out plus the radar is manned 24hrs. when they are at sea, so I wouldn't be too concerned about them not seeing me, but I'd still keep out of their way.g I remember once in the Med. when we were doing anti-submarine exercises and steamed all night in black-out conditions, no lights anywhere. Jan "If you can't take a joke,you shouldn't have joined" |
On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 21:58:42 +0000, Andy Champ
wrote: Fascinating. I'd like to learn more - can you point me at any web sites? I can't find anything much over 25kts. ========================================== We have a ferry service running between here and Key West that uses large, high speed catamarans. They can run at 40 kts or so and are quite spectacular to watch at close range. http://www.keywestshuttle.com/catgallery/default.htm |
Big difference between "high speed ferries" and ships.
otn "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 21:58:42 +0000, Andy Champ wrote: Fascinating. I'd like to learn more - can you point me at any web sites? I can't find anything much over 25kts. ========================================== We have a ferry service running between here and Key West that uses large, high speed catamarans. They can run at 40 kts or so and are quite spectacular to watch at close range. http://www.keywestshuttle.com/catgallery/default.htm |
Armond,
Those are "high speed ferries", not ships. They involve a whole different set of operating parameters than ships, including stopping distance. In dealing with them and discussing them, you need to realize and understand that comparing them to normal commercial traffic is comparing "apples to oranges"....., same applies to standard tugs and Z-drive or Voight Schneider. otn "Armond Perretta" wrote in message I am not sure where you operate, but it's worth noting that there are a number of situations where one encounters commercial vessels that routinely operate at greater than 40 knots. I have been sailing Bay of Fundy for quite a few years now. This is an area where fog is common, and also an area where the "cat" ferries transit from the US over to Nova Scotia. These beasts are over 300 feet long and have a cruising speed of near (or perhaps over) 50 knots. Several people have been killed by them in the past few years. Indeed, I had the devil of a time getting the attention of the Bar Harbor - Yarmouth ferry in high visibility conditions in one particular instance. The last I heard there was a lot of pressure from operators to add this type of service in Long Island Sound, a very high traffic area. |
On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 00:05:02 GMT, "otnmbrd"
wrote: Big difference between "high speed ferries" and ships. ============================================ I agree. These ferries are up in the 150 foot range however so are not exactly toy boats. And watching one tear by at 40 kt+ is awesome. |
Not only does the HSF go a bit faster, it maneuvers in ways no "ship" could,
and stops in distances even much smaller yachts couldn't dream of..... Again....."apples and oranges"..... this class of boat/ship, needs to be thought of separately. otn "Steve Firth" wrote in message . .. otnmbrd wrote: Big difference between "high speed ferries" and ships. Hmm, well mostly that the HSF goes a bit faster. P&O used to have a 35 knot monohull ferry in the Irish Sea, now replaced with a wave piercing catamaran. The SS United States average 35.59 knots in 1952. Visby is a conventional RoRo with a design speed of 28.5 knots. There are also the eight fast cargo ships operated by the US Navy with a cruising speed of 30 knots. -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 |
Steve Firth wrote:
otnmbrd wrote: Not only does the HSF go a bit faster, it maneuvers in ways no "ship" could, Except of course those with Voight-Schneider drives, like most ferrys seem to have. Wrong. SOME ferries have Voight Schneider, not most, and it's by NO means a high speed drive, although it will increase maneuverability. and stops in distances even much smaller yachts couldn't dream of..... As with the line above, hardly relevant. They float on water, they move around, some of them go fast. Wrong again. It's all VERY relevant, because what you can or cannot expect from any of the varying types is significantly different and what you don't know can get you run down. otn |
in message t, otnmbrd
') wrote: Armond, Those are "high speed ferries", not ships. As someone who also sails in an area with 'high speed ferries', I disagree very strongly. They're ships, and frankly they're the most frightening ships out there. And because they operate typically across busy straits, very often in order to get somewhere you _have_ to cross their track. -- (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ ;; better than your average performing pineapple |
Steve Firth wrote:
Well, if you don't know that a rapid flashing amber light indicates a hovercraft it could. The **** off great hovercraft shaped thing under the light might give you a clue to what it meant though. |
Wayne.B wrote:
We have a ferry service running between here and Key West that uses large, high speed catamarans. They can run at 40 kts or so and are quite spectacular to watch at close range. I had an encounter with such a vessel last summer cruising from Croatia to Italy. I was 10nm from the Croatian coast on a NW course, singlehanded under sail when I noticed the vessel astern on my port quarter, at a guess circa 3 nm miles away - in the binoculars I could see the twin hulls; I judged it to be in an overtaking position to me. It was clearly traveling very fast and closing and the bearing did not appear to be changing; it was a classic collision course situation - the weather was clear and sunny, wind about 12knots, no other shipping visible. The ferry, for that is what it was, stood on and was getting very large, very quickly, and still coming straight for me, although I was beginning to think I should already change course myself but because of the speed of the other couldn't quite evaluate to which one. By all interpretations of ColRegs I was the stand-on vessel but I was beginning to get seriously frightened, I wasn't prepared to insist on my rights, just wanted to survive, but I didn't know what would be the best strategy - to stand on with no change of course by the other could result in me being run down; to head up through to a NE course could anticipate the other vessel's possible avoidance action but the greatest confusion came because of the phenomenal speed of the other vessel and my feeling of helplessness at trying to make any manoeuvre that would get me away from such an object with my paltry 5-6 knots - I had started the engine in case I needed the last ounce of speed. My VHF transmit function had failed during my cruise so I couldn't call on channel 16. In the event, I swung to starboard and round to a reciprocal and watched incredulously as the ferry roared over my track during the next few minutes without any change of speed or course, about where I would have been if I hadn't changed course, I was then left tossing in the maelstrom of a wake that was left. Very shaken. It was a Croatian registered ship and there were figures on the bridge as well as some passengers on deck to witness it all. With my white sails in clear visibility at about 09:00 on a fine morning I must have been seen. So yes, it was "quite spectacular to watch at close range" but once is enough, thanks. BrianH. |
"Steve Firth" wrote in message . .. otnmbrd wrote: Except of course those with Voight-Schneider drives, like most ferrys seem to have. Wrong. SOME ferries have Voight Schneider, not most, and it's by NO means a high speed drive, although it will increase maneuverability. Most of the monohull Channel Ferries have V-S,and IIRC all of the Solent ferries. BG I forgot that this was crossposted in "uk.rec.sailing". Ok, "most", over there, some over here. [snip] They float on water, they move around, some of them go fast. Wrong again. It's all VERY relevant, because what you can or cannot expect from any of the varying types is significantly different Significantly different my left foot. Observation will tel you what another vessel is doing. All well and good, but "observations" will not tell you what a particular vessel may or may not be capable of, unless you know what they have and are aware of it's plusses and minuses, and many are significantly different. For instance, at sea, underway, could you tell the difference between a "V-S" and standard drive ferry, assuming you didn't know ahead of time that the particular boat had one or the other drives? and what you don't know can get you run down. Well, if you don't know that a rapid flashing amber light indicates a hovercraft it could. Not too many hovercraft over here, so we tend to forget about them, as our major "high speed" ferries are waterjet. otn |
In article t,
otnmbrd wrote: Wrong. SOME ferries have Voight Schneider, not most, and it's by NO means a high speed drive, although it will increase maneuverability. TTBOMK all CalMac RO-RO ferries have VS propulsion units and they have a lot of ferries. -- A T (Sandy) Morton on the Bicycle Island In the Global Village http://www.millport.net |
Steve Firth wrote:
It's usually difficult to see the Southsea/Ryde hovercraft because it just looks like a very low-flying cloud - with an amber light flashing on top. It's about 100 feet long throws up spray & makes the noise of a Squadron of Concordes. You can see and hear it the other side of the bloody Solent! You are clearly deaf *and* blind but even then I'd have thought you'd have felt the vibrations! |
Steve Firth wrote:
It's usually difficult to see the Southsea/Ryde hovercraft because it just looks like a very low-flying cloud - with an amber light flashing on top. could be a Jake... lol there was mention a few months ago of someone who had an accident through mistaking the lights of a JCB on a quay at night as nav lights. -- Lithium ion internal and external batteries. Internal from £30 External from £75 (trade) All batteries factory new and guaranteed. http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/ e-mail (www.rot13.com) |
Steve Firth wrote:
Sensayuma is not a small town in Arizona. rofl, must remember that one... -- Lithium ion internal and external batteries. Internal from £30 External from £75 (trade) All batteries factory new and guaranteed. http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/ e-mail (www.rot13.com) |
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