Let's say a licensed master decides to offer to donate a boat ride to a
charitable organization's service auction. This group gets the money
when someone pays for the ride, the buyer gets the boat ride, the
captain gets nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling for contributing to the
charity. This is clearly not a part of any business, and the captain is
not in this business anyway.

Has the captain received compensation for this according to USCG
regulations? Does this mean s/he needs chartering insurance, has to be
documented, etc. to do this annually?

Capt. Jeff

I remember when the Coast Guard was going around and stopping yachts
in New York Harbor. They would board and ask the guests if they had
brought any lunch or beer. The guest would say, "Of course we brought
something. We are polite and civil people and would never accept an
invitation with out bringing something."

The guys (this was before there were many gals) would then say, "Ah
ha! Compensation. Owner busted, trip over, return to the dock
immediately." I think it took some congressmen to get this
foolishness stopped.

I also saw the Coast Guard prevent a ship sailing to Bermuda because
they claimed there was no way to prevent the guests from giving money
to the owner in the future or proving that they hadn't already. Since
there was the potential for compensation, it was passenger carrying
without a license.

Obviously, there was something else going on in these cases. If the
Coast Guard wants to shut you down for some reason, a passenger is
anyone they say is a passenger until you spend thousands of dollars
and years in court proving otherwise. The only way to clearly prove
otherwise to pay them as crew and have all the records in order and
ready to produce.

The best thing to do is go into the MSO and discuss exactly what you
want to do. Same thing with your insurance company.

The FAA for some reason is much more reasonable about these things
than the Coast Guard.

--

Roger Long



"Tamaroak" wrote in message
...
Let's say a licensed master decides to offer to donate a boat ride
to a charitable organization's service auction. This group gets the
money when someone pays for the ride, the buyer gets the boat ride,
the captain gets nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling for contributing
to the charity. This is clearly not a part of any business, and the
captain is not in this business anyway.

Has the captain received compensation for this according to USCG
regulations? Does this mean s/he needs chartering insurance, has to
be documented, etc. to do this annually?

Capt. Jeff

You are acting as an agent for the charity.

If money changes hands, either to you or to your "contract employer,"
somebody could make a case that you were acting in a professional
capacity. It's at least a gray area.

I'd think that to be free of potential problems there would need to be
an arm's length relationship between
you and the charity- and no particular connection to the amount your
invited guests donated or even *whether* they donated to the charity.
Maybe a situation where you call your friend at the charity, invite
him/her for a boatride, and suggest they could bring along a half dozen
friends of their own if they wanted to. If the charity then, and
without your knowledge, dangles the invite in front of some potential
donors that is not your problem....exactly.
But somebody could still try to make it so.

A lot of the recreational boaters running out to get their
OUPV or 100-ton papers might do well to pause and consider that if
anything happens on their boat that means they will be defending
themselves in civil court, the complainant's attorney will make a big
deal in front of the jury about how a "licensed captain" should have
known better than to do whatever stupid thing caused the problem in the
first place. Heck of a price to pay for the ego zing of being "Captain"
so and so. If a boater doesn't earn his/her living running a boat, why
mess with the headache of being licensed?

The other thing that leaves a defendent additionally looking bad in
front of a civil jury would be a thorough examination of the "sea
service" claims made by the
recreational boater to sit for the license in the first place. It's
well known that a good many applicants lie, some of them a lot, and the
CG has no reliable method of vetting sea service claims. "If Captain
Zero lied about his sea service, why should we believe he's being
truthful now?"

In the "old days" if the passenger contributed anything, even brought
lunch for the owner, or a "gift for the boat" he became a "passenger for
hire" and a professional license (6-pak or Master's) was required. That
requirement was loosened a bit to allow for sharing of expenses. Now a
guest can make a "voluntary contribution" in the form of money, food or
fuel. But the word "voluntary" is key - The basic test whether the
passengers would have been carried if they hadn't paid. Thus, I think
the "charity auction" fails test and will be considered "passengers for
hire."

This was covered in a CG Circular 12 years ago - I think its still
appropriate:
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/nvic/7_94/n7-94.htm

Here's part of it:

NAVIGATION AND VESSEL INSPECTION CIRCULAR NO. 7-94

Subj: GUIDANCE ON THE PASSENGER VESSEL SAFETY ACT OF 1993

SEC. 506. PASSENGER FOR HIRE.

Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting
between paragraphs (21) and (22) a new paragraph (21a) to read as follows:

"(21a) 'passenger for hire' means a passenger for whom consideration is
contributed as a condition of carriage on the vessel, whether directly
or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any
other person having an interest in the vessel.".

DESCRIPTION - The determination of what constitutes the carriage of a
"passenger for hire" must be made on a case by case basis. This
determination is dependent upon the actual operation of a vessel and the
flow of consideration as determined by the facts of each case. In
general, there needs to be some form of tangible consideration or
promise of performance being passed for a "passenger for hire" situation
to exist.

SEC. 507. CONSIDERATION.

Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting
between paragraphs (5) and (6) a new paragraph (5a) to read as follows:

"(5a) 'consideration' means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or
profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or
entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of
the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food,
beverage, or other supplies.".

DESCRIPTION - Section 507 amends 46 U.S.C. 2101 by adding a definition
of the term "consideration." Although this term was used in the prior
definition of a "passenger," it was not previously defined by statute.
Generally, some tangible amount of worth exchanged for carriage on a
vessel such as payment, exchange of goods or a promise of performance is
required. "Consideration" does not include a voluntary sharing of the
actual expenses of a voyage. Additionally, employees or business clients
that have not contributed for their carriage, and are carried for morale
or entertainment purposes is not included as exchange of consideration.




Tamaroak wrote:
Let's say a licensed master decides to offer to donate a boat ride to a
charitable organization's service auction. This group gets the money
when someone pays for the ride, the buyer gets the boat ride, the
captain gets nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling for contributing to the
charity. This is clearly not a part of any business, and the captain is
not in this business anyway.

Has the captain received compensation for this according to USCG
regulations? Does this mean s/he needs chartering insurance, has to be
documented, etc. to do this annually?

Capt. Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I think this is very much as someone else described as a "grey area".
Several years ago I was asked to offer my services for this exact same type
of situation, and I agreed to do it, but both I and the vessel were fully
covered and performed as if we were paid.

I think it really boils down to this: as a licensed master, you are held to
a higher level of expectation of professionalism, and you can be persued no
matter what the laws may be. Keep in mind that there are several laws that
can apply, besides Federal law, there's Maritime law and Civil law. Think
about the "worst case scenario", where a passenger is seriously injured or
worse. Who will be held accountable? Who will pay the medical bills? Who
will protect you from civil lawsuit? Being a licensed Master is a very
risky business, and I wouldn't take any shortcuts. I am not a lawyer, just
a fellow mariner who wants to keep his license ;-)

--
Paul

=-----------------------------------=
renewontime dot com
FREE email reminder service for licensed mariners
http://www.renewontime.com
=-----------------------------------=

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:27:32 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

I remember when the Coast Guard was going around and stopping yachts
in New York Harbor. They would board and ask the guests if they had
brought any lunch or beer. The guest would say, "Of course we brought
something. We are polite and civil people and would never accept an
invitation with out bringing something."

AFIK the boats they were stopping were large commercial charters
masquerading as bareboats to avoid vessel inspection requirements. In
15 years sailing in NY Harbor with guests, I have never been boarded.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Nuke the gay whales for Jesus" -- anon T-shirt

On 30 Jan 2005 08:23:32 -0800, wrote:


A lot of the recreational boaters running out to get their
OUPV or 100-ton papers might do well to pause and consider that if
anything happens on their boat that means they will be defending
themselves in civil court, the complainant's attorney will make a big
deal in front of the jury about how a "licensed captain" should have
known better than to do whatever stupid thing caused the problem in the
first place. Heck of a price to pay for the ego zing of being "Captain"
so and so. If a boater doesn't earn his/her living running a boat, why
mess with the headache of being licensed?

Exactly why I have never sat for a license. I have had all the
qualifications for 100-ton for many years, but unless I want to work
for hire I will never do it.

Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Nuke the gay whales for Jesus" -- anon T-shirt

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:47:46 -0600, Tamaroak
wrote:

Let's say a licensed master decides to offer to donate a boat ride to a
charitable organization's service auction. This group gets the money
when someone pays for the ride, the buyer gets the boat ride, the
captain gets nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling for contributing to the
charity. This is clearly not a part of any business, and the captain is
not in this business anyway.

Has the captain received compensation for this according to USCG
regulations? Does this mean s/he needs chartering insurance, has to be
documented, etc. to do this annually?

Capt. Jeff

I would expect that if there is no valuable consideration to the
master, he is not chartered.
I know the situations are not identical, but in light aircraft, I and
many other private pilots have provided rides for boy scouts and other
youth organizations. One expects to be persued regardless, if one
commits some breach of reasonable care in the circumstance, all the
same.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

If you still plan on donating a boat trip, one thing to keep in mind is to
clearly state what this boat trip will consist of, how many passengers, etc.
I've made such a donation twice to a charity in a fairly small community.
The first time couldn't have gone better, made some new friends, but the
second got a little strange. I realised that some bidders can get the
notion, at least later, that the more they bid for something loosly
defined, the more they should get. There's no question when it is a TV or
bicycle being bid on.

"Tamaroak" wrote in message
...
Let's say a licensed master decides to offer to donate a boat ride to a
charitable organization's service auction. This group gets the money
when someone pays for the ride, the buyer gets the boat ride, the
captain gets nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling for contributing to the
charity. This is clearly not a part of any business, and the captain is
not in this business anyway.

Has the captain received compensation for this according to USCG
regulations? Does this mean s/he needs chartering insurance, has to be
documented, etc. to do this annually?

Capt. Jeff

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:27:32 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:


If the poster has a "Captain's License" he can accept money as long as
there are 6 or less "paying" passengers. If I pick out the words,
"licensed master" and accept them literally, your boat had better be
duly *Inspected*.

The boat does not have to be an inspected vessel for a charter.


If the boarding officer has an attitude, you'd be
better off to have your documentation on board.... License, Drug Test,
etc.... (although if you argued that would be an admission of for-pay
intent, I'd have to concede.)

Licence only, not drug test card or CPR

Best bet is to get "permission" since this outing is really up to
interpretation, whether specifically mentioned in the law or not.
Roger offered excellent advice.... get prior interpretation of how
the law will be enforced from the MSO.

And Harry is right, too. "...if there is a mishap, the captain will be
sued, and if he isn't "documented" and insured up to the hilt, he
soon will be boatless, carless, houseless and, worst of all,
baitless.

Harry is wrong again, but...