You can find any number of cases where someone had an accident because
they "eyeball" navigated and ignored their instruments.
You can find any number of cases where someone had an accident because
they "electronically" navigated and ignored their "eyeball"
You rarely (note "rarely" .... not always) find a case where someone had
an accident when they were using all means available.
There's nothing wrong with many of the "old" methods, but they required
training and experience and the knowledge of their drawbacks.
Even at night, you could tell when the seas shortened and became steeper
as you approached shallower water. Even at night you could identify
currents by increased whitecaps or disturbed water.
The problem with many of these methods is they aren't always available
and you need to know what to look for, if it is.

otn

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:18:02 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

The post about taking your charts with a grain of salt and using all
available information brings up the conundrum I'm facing as I return
to sailing after nearly 20 years.

Most of my command time was in simple, traditional, boats. The most
complex instrument on board was my usually watch. I didn't even have a
depth sounder or speedometer and navigated clock and compass exactly
as was done 100 years ago. Since I sailed in Maine, I saw a lot of fog
and made a lot of long runs this way.

Never in a boat have I felt more aware and in touch with my
surroundings then when enveloped in that gray cocoon with buoys and
ledges occasionally moving through it, usually right on schedule. The
faint sound of a wave on rock, the darkening of the fog where a
headland blocked the light, a change in wave patterns as I passed a
gap in a protecting chain of islands or ledges, all helped confirm
that my chart work was right.

Some of the later boats I chartered had Loran but I never turned it
on. I didn't want to be distracted by learning it and using the old
ways was a big part of the enjoyment of cruising. I used (and taught
when I was a piloting instructor) very simple methods that would be
less likely to let me down when tired or busy. Instead of speed and
distance calculations, I would just set my dividers to the boat's
speed on the scale and then do everything in time.

On one of my last charters, a hurricane threatened. We were way
downeast and the owner insisted that we had to get sixty miles back to
his mooring in dense fog instead of tucking the boat into a hole and
riding it out. It was one of the thickest fogs I have ever seen. We
ran through most of Fox Island Thoroughfare without seeing either
shore. It was a memorable day.


I learned how to fly airplanes a few years later and that put
navigation in a whole new light. The plane had Loran and GPS but I
refused to turn them on for the first three years so that I would
develop the map and eyeball skills and a feel for the distances and
speed. Now I use the magic boxes all the time but, in some ways, my
situational awareness is less. I track a position that I can transfer
to the paper map it the power fails but it is different. I used to be
flying over the land and identified fixes below. Now I am flying over
the map. You get lazy fast, especially with all the other things to
attend to in an airplane.

Now that I am about to return to boat piloting, I'm unsure about the
place of GPS in my life. The old ways were a big part of cruising for
me. Ride a cable car up a mountain in Switzerland and you may see
people with ropes hanging by their fingernails trying to get the same
place you are going. The rational is similar. I'd also like my video
gaming kids to learn what the human mind can accomplish without the
aid of a microprocessor.

But, is it responsible? It certainly won't be seen as such if I ever
hit anything. On the other hand, I know of many aircraft accidents
that were clearly caused by the pilot trying to use the box instead of
his mind. I always used to know where I was. I'm not sure narrowing it
down with an electronic cursor will significantly increase my safety
in most circumstances.

The strongest rational I can see for relating my place in life to
invisible satellites instead of the landscape I can see around me is
backup for my macroprocessor. If I should fall overboard or become
incapacitated, the kids can either tell the Coast Guard, "We're right
here", or follow the cursor home. I'd like to think I could teach them
to do the same thing the old way but, face it, they know about GPS,
they aren't going to be very interested in learning that, "other
stuff".

I like gadgets though. I have an old aviation GPS that will give me
latitude, longitude, and waypoints. I can't knowingly leave it ashore.
I'll have to buy a marine unit for my new job as Harbormaster. I won't
leave that behind either. Once I turn them on, I know I'll be hooked
and something very rich and rewarding will have passed from my life
forever.


I have transited the Fox I Thorofare without seeing anything but
buoys, but that was with a loran c. I have done shorter and less
unlikely DR passages in total pea soup in the same area of the Maine
coast without electronics, and I am glad I did.

After that we chartered a boat that had no loran a total of 8 weeks in
5 years, departing from Northeast Harbor. But that was in May and
September, when the fog is much less frequent.

Now I wouldn't dream of leaving the GPS turned off. Using all the info
at your disposal requires that. I also use the radar if it socks in.


Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Be careful. The toe you stepped on yesterday may be connected to the ass you have to kiss today." --Former mayor Ciancia

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:06:22 -0500, Rodney Myrvaagnes
wrote:

I have transited the Fox I Thorofare without seeing anything but
buoys, but that was with a loran c.

Yep. We once did the same thing eastbound on Eggemoggin Reach, never
even saw the bridge as we went under.

Now I wouldn't dream of leaving the GPS turned off. Using all the info
at your disposal requires that. I also use the radar if it socks in.

I certainly agree with that. Good navigation requires using all the
tools at your disposal and GPS/WAAS is about as good as it gets.
Chart error is the primary issue for us these days. Take a look at
the following GPS track, all of which was done in deep water and
recorded with a WAAS GPS:

http://tinyurl.com/5utpw

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/hoonos...&.dnm=66dc.jpg

That is good. GPS is a tool, not the way to navigate.

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:18:02 GMT, "Roger Long" said:

I'd like to think I could teach them
to do the same thing the old way but, face it, they know about GPS,
they aren't going to be very interested in learning that, "other
stuff".

I used to work on an oceanographic ship, the CO would tape cardboard over the
GPS during watch and have his ensigns use only DR and celestial .

Dennis

Which ship was that? Oceanographic vessels are my primary
professional interest.

--

Roger Long



"Den73740" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:18:02 GMT, "Roger Long"
said:

I'd like to think I could teach them
to do the same thing the old way but, face it, they know about GPS,
they aren't going to be very interested in learning that, "other
stuff".

I used to work on an oceanographic ship, the CO would tape cardboard
over the
GPS during watch and have his ensigns use only DR and celestial .

Dennis

I agree that no accomplished boater would teach someone to navigate with
GPS alone. But it's the Newbies that buy a new boat, with all the bells
and whistles, except a chart, and fire out across the western end of
Lake Erie, only to run aground on a reel. Or like the boat last year
that ran into an island, at night, killing all 6 on board.

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:58:44 -0500, (Jim P.) wrote:
But it's the Newbies that buy a new boat, with all the bells
and whistles, except a chart, and fire out across the western end of
Lake Erie, only to run aground on a reel. Or like the boat last year
that ran into an island, at night, killing all 6 on board.

======================

Tragic but that kind of accident has been happening for a long time,
since well before the advent of GPS, LORAN or even RDF. It's just
Darwin doing his thing.

Good Morning Roger!
I just read your thread. I was moved by it. I am a neophyte sailor who has
been avidly sailing and living aboard for over six years on a small racing
sloop (7.7m). I conclude from your edress that you're in New England.
I know it won't be possible for me to come to you, so would you consider
passing on " that something rich and rewarding" to someone eager to learn it
as opposed to having it passing "from my life" and being lost forever.
Although I have and use the new GPS technology I am eager to learn the old
ways. My problem is I can't afford the schools for celestial navigation etc.
If interested would you be interested in a "distance learning program" with
me. Then perhaps in the future we can establish a time when I can come to
your location over a long weekend or personal vacation to test and apply
what I've learned. Maybe this is a crazy idea to you, but I hope you will
find someone to whom you can "pass down'' this knowledge and experience so
that it can be perpetuated instead of lost.

Rico
S/V OSAZZE
"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
The post about taking your charts with a grain of salt and using all
available information brings up the conundrum I'm facing as I return
to sailing after nearly 20 years.

Most of my command time was in simple, traditional, boats. The most
complex instrument on board was my usually watch. I didn't even have a
depth sounder or speedometer and navigated clock and compass exactly
as was done 100 years ago. Since I sailed in Maine, I saw a lot of fog
and made a lot of long runs this way.

Never in a boat have I felt more aware and in touch with my
surroundings then when enveloped in that gray cocoon with buoys and
ledges occasionally moving through it, usually right on schedule. The
faint sound of a wave on rock, the darkening of the fog where a
headland blocked the light, a change in wave patterns as I passed a
gap in a protecting chain of islands or ledges, all helped confirm
that my chart work was right.

Some of the later boats I chartered had Loran but I never turned it
on. I didn't want to be distracted by learning it and using the old
ways was a big part of the enjoyment of cruising. I used (and taught
when I was a piloting instructor) very simple methods that would be
less likely to let me down when tired or busy. Instead of speed and
distance calculations, I would just set my dividers to the boat's
speed on the scale and then do everything in time.

On one of my last charters, a hurricane threatened. We were way
downeast and the owner insisted that we had to get sixty miles back to
his mooring in dense fog instead of tucking the boat into a hole and
riding it out. It was one of the thickest fogs I have ever seen. We
ran through most of Fox Island Thoroughfare without seeing either
shore. It was a memorable day.


I learned how to fly airplanes a few years later and that put
navigation in a whole new light. The plane had Loran and GPS but I
refused to turn them on for the first three years so that I would
develop the map and eyeball skills and a feel for the distances and
speed. Now I use the magic boxes all the time but, in some ways, my
situational awareness is less. I track a position that I can transfer
to the paper map it the power fails but it is different. I used to be
flying over the land and identified fixes below. Now I am flying over
the map. You get lazy fast, especially with all the other things to
attend to in an airplane.

Now that I am about to return to boat piloting, I'm unsure about the
place of GPS in my life. The old ways were a big part of cruising for
me. Ride a cable car up a mountain in Switzerland and you may see
people with ropes hanging by their fingernails trying to get the same
place you are going. The rational is similar. I'd also like my video
gaming kids to learn what the human mind can accomplish without the
aid of a microprocessor.

But, is it responsible? It certainly won't be seen as such if I ever
hit anything. On the other hand, I know of many aircraft accidents
that were clearly caused by the pilot trying to use the box instead of
his mind. I always used to know where I was. I'm not sure narrowing it
down with an electronic cursor will significantly increase my safety
in most circumstances.

The strongest rational I can see for relating my place in life to
invisible satellites instead of the landscape I can see around me is
backup for my macroprocessor. If I should fall overboard or become
incapacitated, the kids can either tell the Coast Guard, "We're right
here", or follow the cursor home. I'd like to think I could teach them
to do the same thing the old way but, face it, they know about GPS,
they aren't going to be very interested in learning that, "other
stuff".

I like gadgets though. I have an old aviation GPS that will give me
latitude, longitude, and waypoints. I can't knowingly leave it ashore.
I'll have to buy a marine unit for my new job as Harbormaster. I won't
leave that behind either. Once I turn them on, I know I'll be hooked
and something very rich and rewarding will have passed from my life
forever.


--

Roger Long

Well, I'm touched by your comments.

However, there is nothing special about my knowledge. It's just the
basics of coastal piloting and the foundation on which you should
build your use of more advanced methods and tools.

My original comment was that, when forced to rely on these methods
alone because of economics and the availability of equipment at the
time, I found myself forced into a heightened awareness of my
surroundings and enjoying the simplicity. It's much like how a
backpacker experiences his environment differently than someone who is
driving through it. Just as there are times and places you shouldn't
be walking, there are times and places that it would be foolish not to
use GPS and other such tools now that they are universally available.

I was never actually taught any of this. I just read about it and
really paid attention when I first started going out in boats. You can
do the same although learning from people who know more is never
wasted.

Finally, I know next to nothing about celestial. I'm strictly a
coastal sailor. My big boat ocean time has always been as crew.

I'm not in a position to take time to teach you anything personally
and, as I said, it's no more that what a good piloting teacher would
teach you first. The key is to navigate constantly, even when there is
no question about your position. Read what you can, talk to everyone
you can, and just sail in an alert fashion trying different things and
paying attention to every clue you can. You should do fine.