That rings a bell and I think you might be right. The shoal being
shallower than charted may have been a secondary factor.

I don't think it would have been GPS in those days. Probably Loran.

--

Roger Long



wrote in message
.. .
Yeah, the QEII (I think) ran aground about 20 years ago just off
the
Elizabeth Islands on Cape Cod and in one of the most heavily
traveled
areas of New England. The chart turned out to be wrong.

Is that the case? I heard about something similar but not a case of
a
chart being wrong. A cruise liner enroute to Boston was under
autopilot
but the gps lost lock for an extended period of time. During that
period
the course was continued with the unit doing its own dead reckoning.
By
the time it regained lock it was well off course and the new course
to
the next waypoint took it over some rocks. None of the crew had
noticed
the system had lost lock and all were trusting that the "gps
referenced
autopilot" was safely steering the ship waypoint to waypoint. They
also
did not bother to look and see that their course was now taking them
over the rocks.

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:17:11 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

That rings a bell and I think you might be right. The shoal being
shallower than charted may have been a secondary factor.

I don't think it would have been GPS in those days. Probably Loran.


Can't tell what you are talking about. Both the QE2 and Nantucket
shoals incident are quite recent. The QE2 was a chart problem, since
corrected, and had nothing to do with autopilot or any other automated
gear.

The Nantucket shoals incident was from a system that ran on DR for
600+ miles with the GPS disconnected.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


Capsizing under chute, and having the chute rise and fill without tangling, all while Mark and Sally are still behind you

The Nantucket shoals incident was from a system that ran on DR for
600+ miles with the GPS disconnected.

THAT is the story I was remembering. None of the crew noticed. No one
was running their own plot.

When did these incidents happen? I lived on the Cape in the late 70's
so I may be transferring the memory back to that association. When
did they start installing GPS on big ships?

--

Roger Long



"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:17:11 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

That rings a bell and I think you might be right. The shoal being
shallower than charted may have been a secondary factor.

I don't think it would have been GPS in those days. Probably Loran.


Can't tell what you are talking about. Both the QE2 and Nantucket
shoals incident are quite recent. The QE2 was a chart problem, since
corrected, and had nothing to do with autopilot or any other
automated
gear.

The Nantucket shoals incident was from a system that ran on DR for
600+ miles with the GPS disconnected.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC
J36 Gjo/a


Capsizing under chute, and having the chute rise and fill without
tangling, all while Mark and Sally are still behind you

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:34:23 -0500, Rodney Myrvaagnes
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:17:11 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

That rings a bell and I think you might be right. The shoal being
shallower than charted may have been a secondary factor.

I don't think it would have been GPS in those days. Probably Loran.


Can't tell what you are talking about. Both the QE2 and Nantucket
shoals incident are quite recent. The QE2 was a chart problem, since
corrected, and had nothing to do with autopilot or any other automated
gear.


I heard they had more of a squat problem. As in they forgot to figure
in the ship's squat at their speed over the shoal.
Mark E. Williams

snip

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 17:02:09 -0600, wrote:

Yeah, the QEII (I think) ran aground about 20 years ago just off the
Elizabeth Islands on Cape Cod and in one of the most heavily traveled
areas of New England. The chart turned out to be wrong.

Is that the case? I heard about something similar but not a case of a
chart being wrong. A cruise liner enroute to Boston was under autopilot
but the gps lost lock for an extended period of time. During that period
the course was continued with the unit doing its own dead reckoning. By
the time it regained lock it was well off course and the new course to
the next waypoint took it over some rocks. None of the crew had noticed
the system had lost lock and all were trusting that the "gps referenced
autopilot" was safely steering the ship waypoint to waypoint. They also
did not bother to look and see that their course was now taking them
over the rocks.


Hmmm...can you spot the pattern?

A Cathay-Pacific jet out of London had an autopilot disengage after
a windshear alert while maneuvering in the terminal area last
October.
The crew saw the jet turning, but figured it was a response to the
wind-shear(??) The jet turned close by a mountain and continued
climbing, while the crew merrily concentrated on clean-up, though the
plane was near stall. When the controllers first queried the altitude
exceedence, the crew STILL thought they were responding appropriately
to a wind-shear (the w/s response CAN mandate holding attitude in a
climb, ignoring transient stall warnings).

When I sent this news report to associates, I heard back that
one of the people in that office had been on a flight with the cockpit
door open ( not a US long-haul, I'd think?) and heard the GPWS
calling "Pull up, Pull up" while the crew were argiung about
something....

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

wrote:
Yeah, the QEII (I think) ran aground about 20 years ago just off the
Elizabeth Islands on Cape Cod and in one of the most heavily traveled
areas of New England. The chart turned out to be wrong.


Is that the case? I heard about something similar but not a case of a
chart being wrong. A cruise liner enroute to Boston was under autopilot
but the gps lost lock for an extended period of time. During that period
the course was continued with the unit doing its own dead reckoning. By
the time it regained lock it was well off course and the new course to
the next waypoint took it over some rocks. None of the crew had noticed
the system had lost lock and all were trusting that the "gps referenced
autopilot" was safely steering the ship waypoint to waypoint. They also
did not bother to look and see that their course was now taking them
over the rocks.


I believe in the case of the QE2, the rock was charted but the depth was
wrong, plus they didn't allow for squat.
In the other case the antenna was disconnected to the GPS which forced
the system to go on DR, which coupled with other procedure errors ended
them on a sandbar.
Overall, the accuracy of existing charts is amazing considering the
equipment available for the original calculations, etc..
However, many need updating and upgrading for accuracy and and content
and this is going to be a slow process.

otn

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 17:02:09 -0600, wrote:

Yeah, the QEII (I think) ran aground about 20 years ago just off the
Elizabeth Islands on Cape Cod and in one of the most heavily traveled
areas of New England. The chart turned out to be wrong.

Is that the case? I heard about something similar but not a case of a
chart being wrong. A cruise liner enroute to Boston was under autopilot
but the gps lost lock for an extended period of time. During that period
the course was continued with the unit doing its own dead reckoning. By
the time it regained lock it was well off course and the new course to
the next waypoint took it over some rocks. None of the crew had noticed
the system had lost lock and all were trusting that the "gps referenced
autopilot" was safely steering the ship waypoint to waypoint. They also
did not bother to look and see that their course was now taking them
over the rocks.

That was a different incident, not the QE2.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


Capsizing under chute, and having the chute rise and fill without tangling, all while Mark and Sally are still behind you

In article ,
says...


Yeah, the QEII (I think) ran aground about 20 years ago just off the
Elizabeth Islands on Cape Cod and in one of the most heavily traveled
areas of New England. The chart turned out to be wrong.

Is that the case? I heard about something similar but not a case of a
chart being wrong. A cruise liner enroute to Boston was under autopilot
but the gps lost lock for an extended period of time. During that period
the course was continued with the unit doing its own dead reckoning. By
the time it regained lock it was well off course and the new course to
the next waypoint took it over some rocks. None of the crew had noticed
the system had lost lock and all were trusting that the "gps referenced
autopilot" was safely steering the ship waypoint to waypoint. They also
did not bother to look and see that their course was now taking them
over the rocks.

That was a different case from the QE2. Equally instructive.

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:31:22 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Yeah, the QEII (I think) ran aground about 20 years ago just off the
Elizabeth Islands on Cape Cod and in one of the most heavily traveled
areas of New England. The chart turned out to be wrong.

--
Much more recent than that. I kept a copy of the last chart edition
before the grounding just to show people.

It was surveyed quite promptly after the grounding. THe new edition
looks very different.

BTW, the previous survey was not 100 years old. It was 1939. WW2
intervened or I expect the job would have been completed.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


Capsizing under chute, and having the chute rise and fill without tangling, all while Mark and Sally are still behind you