Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Jeff Morris
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Me wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Morris wrote:


Commercial flights do not rely on GPS for approaches.



Bzzzt, Wrong, Would you like to try for whats behind Door No. 1?

The FAA has certified CAT V GPS/ILS for about three years now.
It is a Aircraft Based System that only requires only a local
DGPS Beacon at the airport.


Me

Are you sure of that? Are you really claiming that the thousands of
jets that are in the air now completely rely on GPS and would be unable
to land without it? Are you actually telling me that when I board a 757
to go to FL for Christmas the only nav system on board will be a GPS?
  #2   Report Post  
Jim Donohue
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

Are you sure of that? Are you really claiming that the thousands of jets
that are in the air now completely rely on GPS and would be unable to land
without it? Are you actually telling me that when I board a 757 to go to
FL for Christmas the only nav system on board will be a GPS?


I am not sure what point you are making. There are airport approaches that
can only be executed by a GPS equipped airplane. So under at least some
weather conditions the only way to get into that airport is to fly a GPS
approach.

There are airplanes under the existing regulations that lack equipment that
used to be required for some instrument approaches.

All airplanes can of course resort to visual approaches. So when everything
breaks, you can run for a place where you can see. Note though that
occassionally there are no such places available.

I am not aware of any precision approach that has been approved for GPS.
Maybe Me knows something I don't. If so I would like to see a reference.

There appears no doubt in the direction of the FAA that the system will go
entirely GPS eventually...but that point is still many years in the future.
The present state is one of transition...changing from the procedures of
VOR/DME to those of GPS. So every year more and more of the procedures will
be GPS.


JIm Donohue


  #3   Report Post  
Jeff Morris
 
Posts: n/a
Default

My point was simply that although the FAA has started approval GPS in
some situations, commercial flights, in particular large jets flying
into major cities, do not rely on GPS.

AnchorLt implied that anyone flying at the time of a GPS outage could be
in for "an ending." I think that commercial flights would be able to
cope since they do not rely exclusively on GPS. "me" rather rudely
pointed out the the FAA has begun approving GPS in some situations, some
I pointed out a few days ago, but missed the point the GPS is not the
sole means used by commercial aircraft.

I appreciate that there may be some situations GPS is the only way to
get into some airports, and that there may be not other backup. But
this scenario would apply to very few, if any commercial aircraft today.

Curiously, the scenario I remember given when SA was removed in 2000 was
that the 300 foot uncertainty in location meant that rescue vehicles
might go to the wrong side of a divided highway, causing perhaps fatal
delays. I wonder if the administration has some breakdown of the cost
in lives, accidents, and economic loss if GPS were shut down?


Jim Donohue wrote:
"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...


Are you sure of that? Are you really claiming that the thousands of jets
that are in the air now completely rely on GPS and would be unable to land
without it? Are you actually telling me that when I board a 757 to go to
FL for Christmas the only nav system on board will be a GPS?



I am not sure what point you are making. There are airport approaches that
can only be executed by a GPS equipped airplane. So under at least some
weather conditions the only way to get into that airport is to fly a GPS
approach.

There are airplanes under the existing regulations that lack equipment that
used to be required for some instrument approaches.

All airplanes can of course resort to visual approaches. So when everything
breaks, you can run for a place where you can see. Note though that
occassionally there are no such places available.

I am not aware of any precision approach that has been approved for GPS.
Maybe Me knows something I don't. If so I would like to see a reference.

There appears no doubt in the direction of the FAA that the system will go
entirely GPS eventually...but that point is still many years in the future.
The present state is one of transition...changing from the procedures of
VOR/DME to those of GPS. So every year more and more of the procedures will
be GPS.


JIm Donohue


  #4   Report Post  
Jim Donohue
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I think you will find many Airline fleets fully equipped with GPS today. It
appears that GPS is well on its way to become the standard primary
navigation system with VOR/DME as the secondary backup system.

For sophisticated operation it appears likely that GPS will be combined with
inertial.

The marine problem is in general much simpler. It is nice to be able to
stop or go real slow...a tactic not available in an airplane.

Jim

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
My point was simply that although the FAA has started approval GPS in some
situations, commercial flights, in particular large jets flying into major
cities, do not rely on GPS.

AnchorLt implied that anyone flying at the time of a GPS outage could be
in for "an ending." I think that commercial flights would be able to cope
since they do not rely exclusively on GPS. "me" rather rudely pointed out
the the FAA has begun approving GPS in some situations, some I pointed out
a few days ago, but missed the point the GPS is not the sole means used by
commercial aircraft.

I appreciate that there may be some situations GPS is the only way to get
into some airports, and that there may be not other backup. But this
scenario would apply to very few, if any commercial aircraft today.

Curiously, the scenario I remember given when SA was removed in 2000 was
that the 300 foot uncertainty in location meant that rescue vehicles might
go to the wrong side of a divided highway, causing perhaps fatal delays.
I wonder if the administration has some breakdown of the cost in lives,
accidents, and economic loss if GPS were shut down?


Jim Donohue wrote:
"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...




  #5   Report Post  
Me
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article G_4yd.8097$iD.5755@fed1read05,
"Jim Donohue" wrote:

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

Are you sure of that? Are you really claiming that the thousands of jets
that are in the air now completely rely on GPS and would be unable to land
without it? Are you actually telling me that when I board a 757 to go to
FL for Christmas the only nav system on board will be a GPS?


I am not sure what point you are making. There are airport approaches that
can only be executed by a GPS equipped airplane. So under at least some
weather conditions the only way to get into that airport is to fly a GPS
approach.

There are airplanes under the existing regulations that lack equipment that
used to be required for some instrument approaches.

All airplanes can of course resort to visual approaches. So when everything
breaks, you can run for a place where you can see. Note though that
occassionally there are no such places available.

I am not aware of any precision approach that has been approved for GPS.
Maybe Me knows something I don't. If so I would like to see a reference.

There appears no doubt in the direction of the FAA that the system will go
entirely GPS eventually...but that point is still many years in the future.
The present state is one of transition...changing from the procedures of
VOR/DME to those of GPS. So every year more and more of the procedures will
be GPS.


JIm Donohue



Juneau, Alaska check it out....... the ILS Approch has a 45 degree
DogLeg 1000 feet before the end of the runway. Try that with the
old Ground based ILS system........


Me


  #6   Report Post  
Jim Donohue
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Me" wrote in message
...
In article G_4yd.8097$iD.5755@fed1read05,
"Jim Donohue" wrote:

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

Are you sure of that? Are you really claiming that the thousands of
jets
that are in the air now completely rely on GPS and would be unable to
land
without it? Are you actually telling me that when I board a 757 to go
to
FL for Christmas the only nav system on board will be a GPS?


I am not sure what point you are making. There are airport approaches
that
can only be executed by a GPS equipped airplane. So under at least some
weather conditions the only way to get into that airport is to fly a GPS
approach.

There are airplanes under the existing regulations that lack equipment
that
used to be required for some instrument approaches.

All airplanes can of course resort to visual approaches. So when
everything
breaks, you can run for a place where you can see. Note though that
occassionally there are no such places available.

I am not aware of any precision approach that has been approved for GPS.
Maybe Me knows something I don't. If so I would like to see a reference.

There appears no doubt in the direction of the FAA that the system will
go
entirely GPS eventually...but that point is still many years in the
future.
The present state is one of transition...changing from the procedures of
VOR/DME to those of GPS. So every year more and more of the procedures
will
be GPS.


JIm Donohue



Juneau, Alaska check it out....... the ILS Approch has a 45 degree
DogLeg 1000 feet before the end of the runway. Try that with the
old Ground based ILS system........


Me


Only published approach is RNAV non-precision approach. No dog leg close
in. There was a very sophisticated early experiment at Juneau that may have
been what your are referring to.

A quick check of the literature indicates there are no CAT I or better GPS
approaches. LAAS is supposed to enable this and there is talk that a
combination with Galileo will eventually enable precision approaches. I
believe at one point they were projecting CAT I with WAAS but decided
integrity is not high enough.

Jim


  #7   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Jim Donohue wrote:
. . .
There appears no doubt in the direction of the FAA that the system

will go
entirely GPS eventually...but that point is still many years in the

future.
The present state is one of transition...changing from the procedures

of
VOR/DME to those of GPS. So every year more and more of the

procedures will
be GPS.


Agreed terminal approach GPS control is years down the road, but, isn't
the "free flight" initiative, which would allow airliners outside of
TRACON to route themselves, based on GPS transponders, pretty much
being fast tracked? Allegedly the system will gain significant
in-transit capacity so there's a big cost savings envisioned.

  #8   Report Post  
Jim Donohue
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote in message
ups.com...

Jim Donohue wrote:
. . .
There appears no doubt in the direction of the FAA that the system

will go
entirely GPS eventually...but that point is still many years in the

future.
The present state is one of transition...changing from the procedures

of
VOR/DME to those of GPS. So every year more and more of the

procedures will
be GPS.


Agreed terminal approach GPS control is years down the road, but, isn't
the "free flight" initiative, which would allow airliners outside of
TRACON to route themselves, based on GPS transponders, pretty much
being fast tracked? Allegedly the system will gain significant
in-transit capacity so there's a big cost savings envisioned.


Free Flight - It is I think trapped in the bureaucracy. It is the
procedures and protocols that limit its application rather than technology.

V irtually any modern airliner, with or without GPS, knows where it is to
the nearest tenth of a mile or better. It is the development of a system
compatible with the existing air traffic control that is the killer. That
means small incremental improvements at best. Note that on time performance
continues to degrade even as they claim gains from implenting some of the
free flight tools.

One hopes...but they expect almost as many air traffic controllers in 10
years as now...does not give much reason form optimism.

Jim Donohue


  #9   Report Post  
Me
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
Jeff Morris wrote:

Me wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Morris wrote:


Commercial flights do not rely on GPS for approaches.



Bzzzt, Wrong, Would you like to try for whats behind Door No. 1?

The FAA has certified CAT V GPS/ILS for about three years now.
It is a Aircraft Based System that only requires only a local
DGPS Beacon at the airport.


Me

Are you sure of that? Are you really claiming that the thousands of
jets that are in the air now completely rely on GPS and would be unable
to land without it? Are you actually telling me that when I board a 757
to go to FL for Christmas the only nav system on board will be a GPS?


Yes, I am sure of that, as I service the system on a bunch of 737-400's.
This is an option for all Boeing jets now. I am not saying that ALL
Jets have this system, I am saying that there is a CAT V GPS/ILS that
is FAA Certified and in use in the USA. Most of the commercial
carriers are using Inertial guidance systems, and the GPS/ILS is an
additional option for the Approch and Landing phase of flight, that
CAN either replace the old Microwave Ground Based System or be a
Redundent System to it. I also would say that 90% of the commercial
Air Fleet, has GPS inputs to the Navigation systems onboard.
Hell I saw a superb Glass Cockpit installed in a Cessna Archer,
that used GPS as a PRIMARY Navigation Instrument, with VOR as the
redundant backup. This was installed by an FAA Grant on an alaskan bush
plane. $50K of your tax dollars for each installation and there are a
buch of them in service now.


Me
  #10   Report Post  
Jeff Morris
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Me wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Morris wrote:


Me wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Morris wrote:



Commercial flights do not rely on GPS for approaches.


Bzzzt, Wrong, Would you like to try for whats behind Door No. 1?

The FAA has certified CAT V GPS/ILS for about three years now.
It is a Aircraft Based System that only requires only a local
DGPS Beacon at the airport.


Me


Are you sure of that? Are you really claiming that the thousands of
jets that are in the air now completely rely on GPS and would be unable
to land without it? Are you actually telling me that when I board a 757
to go to FL for Christmas the only nav system on board will be a GPS?



Yes, I am sure of that, as I service the system on a bunch of 737-400's.
This is an option for all Boeing jets now. I am not saying that ALL
Jets have this system, I am saying that there is a CAT V GPS/ILS that
is FAA Certified and in use in the USA. Most of the commercial
carriers are using Inertial guidance systems, and the GPS/ILS is an
additional option for the Approch and Landing phase of flight, that
CAN either replace the old Microwave Ground Based System or be a
Redundent System to it. I also would say that 90% of the commercial
Air Fleet, has GPS inputs to the Navigation systems onboard.
Hell I saw a superb Glass Cockpit installed in a Cessna Archer,
that used GPS as a PRIMARY Navigation Instrument, with VOR as the
redundant backup. This was installed by an FAA Grant on an alaskan bush
plane. $50K of your tax dollars for each installation and there are a
buch of them in service now.


Me


Even so, this doesn't mean that commercial flights *rely* on GPS; it
only means that they *use* GPS. There's a big difference.

So what do you think would happen if the feds decided they had to shut
down the GPS system?




Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ending GPS? [email protected] Cruising 41 December 20th 04 10:49 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:09 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2025 BoatBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Boats"

 

Copyright © 2017