Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water
in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance.


In article
le.rogers.com,
Bowgus wrote:

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning there
is no
such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in
the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent
gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with
water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water
in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine
might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a
drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

And when the temperature drops ... although I suppose some of you guys don't
live where that happens ... the alcohol can get dumped. Refer to the
excellent link posted by John Wentworth to "2003 Marine Manufacturere Fuel
Recommendations" at http://www.ethanolrfa.org/2003marine.pdf

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water
in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance.


In article
le.rogers.com,
Bowgus wrote:

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning
there
is no
such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some
in
the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to
prevent
gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with
water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the
water
in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If
that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine
might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by
a
drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved.
My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left
and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good
for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How
is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Oops ... must be the scotch ... the water gets dumped ... how true :-)

"Bowgus" wrote in message
.rogers.com...
And when the temperature drops ... although I suppose some of you guys
don't
live where that happens ... the alcohol can get dumped. Refer to the
excellent link posted by John Wentworth to "2003 Marine Manufacturere Fuel
Recommendations" at http://www.ethanolrfa.org/2003marine.pdf

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water
in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance.


In article
le.rogers.com,
Bowgus wrote:

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning
there
is no
such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by
some
in
the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to
prevent
gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with
water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the
water
in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If
that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the
engine
might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused
by
a
drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when
revved.
My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left
and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here
(Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good
for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running
problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas
in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional
(national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How
is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

whatever are you talking about, blow gut. I lived a LOT of years where
wintertime temps were well below zero actual (the lowest I ever saw was -48
actual, not "windchill"), and alcohol was -- at the time -- a standard
ingredient added at gas tank fill time. in fact, one very large petro company
advertised they added alcohol at the refinery.

"Bowgus"
Date: 9/22/2004 6:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: ers.com

And when the temperature drops ... although I suppose some of you guys don't
live where that happens ... the alcohol can get dumped. Refer to the
excellent link posted by John Wentworth to "2003 Marine Manufacturere Fuel
Recommendations" at http://www.ethanolrfa.org/2003marine.pdf

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water
in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance.


In article
le.rogers.com,
Bowgus wrote:

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning
there
is no
such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some
in
the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to
prevent
gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with
water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the
water
in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If
that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine
might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by
a
drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved.
My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left
and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good
for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How
is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

(JAXAshby) wrote in message ...
whatever are you talking about, blow gut. I lived a LOT of years where
wintertime temps were well below zero actual (the lowest I ever saw was -48
actual, not "windchill"), and alcohol was -- at the time -- a standard
ingredient added at gas tank fill time. in fact, one very large petro company
advertised they added alcohol at the refinery.

"Bowgus"
Date: 9/22/2004 6:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: ers.com

And when the temperature drops ... although I suppose some of you guys don't
live where that happens ... the alcohol can get dumped. Refer to the
excellent link posted by John Wentworth to "2003 Marine Manufacturere Fuel
Recommendations" at http://www.ethanolrfa.org/2003marine.pdf


That stuff we were always using up in Minnesota. It came in a 10 oz or
so can, it was called "Heet". The gasline between the tank and the
engine was where the water would collect and freeze. You'd dump in a
can or two of Heet, go away for awhile, then come back and start the
engine.------You know, when I think about it, that doesn't make
sense.The correct way was to dump it in when you filled your tank, but
that implies having a plan, which usually wasn't the case 40 years
ago. Does anybody know if that stuff works after the fact, that is,
will it thaw a frozen line? I'm thinking yes. I remember 40's,
possibly 50 degrees below actual, not windchill. My first car, a '56
Rambler Super Cross Country, had clear vynil plastic covering the
seats. When I sat down on it, it was so cold it didn't just crack, the
whole front seat cover shattered like glass.

I am talking about Minnesota and upper Wisconsin. I, too, saw many times a
can or two of Heet thaw out a frozen gas line.

"My advice, sir, don't forget your De-Icer" was long an advertising slogan for
Standard Oil. Eventually, all petro companies added alcohol to wintertime gas.

Ever hear of Eureka or Durrand or Lykens or Frederic or Wayzata or Plymouth or
Dinkytown?

That stuff we were always using up in Minnesota. It came in a 10 oz or
so can, it was called "Heet". The gasline between the tank and the
engine was where the water would collect and freeze. You'd dump in a
can or two of Heet, go away for awhile, then come back and start the
engine.------You know, when I think about it, that doesn't make
sense.The correct way was to dump it in when you filled your tank, but
that implies having a plan, which usually wasn't the case 40 years
ago. Does anybody know if that stuff works after the fact, that is,
will it thaw a frozen line? I'm thinking yes. I remember 40's,
possibly 50 degrees below actual, not windchill. My first car, a '56
Rambler Super Cross Country, had clear vynil plastic covering the
seats. When I sat down on it, it was so cold it didn't just crack, the
whole front seat cover shattered like glass.

"My advice, sir, don't forget your De-Icer"

actually, "My advice, sir, get De-Icer."

(JAXAshby) wrote in message ...
I am talking about Minnesota and upper Wisconsin. I, too, saw many times a
can or two of Heet thaw out a frozen gas line.

"My advice, sir, don't forget your De-Icer" was long an advertising slogan for
Standard Oil. Eventually, all petro companies added alcohol to wintertime gas.

Ever hear of Eureka or Durrand or Lykens or Frederic or Wayzata or Plymouth or
Dinkytown?

That stuff we were always using up in Minnesota. It came in a 10 oz or
so can, it was called "Heet". The gasline between the tank and the
engine was where the water would collect and freeze. You'd dump in a
can or two of Heet, go away for awhile, then come back and start the
engine.------You know, when I think about it, that doesn't make
sense.The correct way was to dump it in when you filled your tank, but
that implies having a plan, which usually wasn't the case 40 years
ago. Does anybody know if that stuff works after the fact, that is,
will it thaw a frozen line? I'm thinking yes. I remember 40's,
possibly 50 degrees below actual, not windchill. My first car, a '56
Rambler Super Cross Country, had clear vynil plastic covering the
seats. When I sat down on it, it was so cold it didn't just crack, the
whole front seat cover shattered like glass.







I was pretty sure Heet thawed out frozen lines but it seems it must
all sink to do that and then that's all the engine would burn until it
was gone.Oh well, it worked,that's what counted.Another bit of
excitement was sliding a pan of burning fuel oil under the motor to
warm it up enough to start or thawing the houses water pipes with a
bic lighter and a can of the wifes hair spray.I grew up in
Rochester,but my ex's sister lived in Wayzata so we were there
occasionally.My grandma lived on Lake Calhoun, I spent a lot of time
there when I was young.Lived in Wis. for 13 years,some of it in
Nelson, where the Chippewa runs into the Mississippi,about 20 miles up
the Chippewa there was a town named Durand.Is that it?

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:28:58 GMT,
Rich Hampel wrote:
Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water
in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance.


So does this mean that a 55 gal drum of water, will form an emulsion
when you add 1 drop of Ethanol to it? this doesn't make sense.

Surely there's some point at which adding more water to the ethanol will
leave a non-emulsified amount of water?



In article
ble.rogers.com,
Bowgus wrote:

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning
there is no such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Proud Member of THRUSH:
the Technological Hierarchy for the Removal of Undesirables
and the Subjugation of Humanity

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:28:58 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water
in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance.

The first line should warn you that a mistake is in the offing.

Here are some definitions:
"azeotrope" a mixture of liquids with a constant boiling temperature
- because the vapor has the same composition as the liquid.

Contrast this with a mix of grain acohol (aka ethanol) and water:
when heated, the ethanol evolves preferentially: this process is
called "distillation"

An "emulsion" is a preparation of two immiscible liquids: though they
will not mutually dissolve, finely divided particles of one phase
remain stable in the other component, often with a milky appearance:
mayonnaise is a classic example.

The problem in the lines quoted is the confusion between water/oil or
water/gasoline mixes which CAN emulsify - and water/alcohol mixes
which DO NOT emulsify.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK