Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water
in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance.


In article
le.rogers.com,
Bowgus wrote:

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning there
is no
such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in
the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent
gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with
water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water
in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine
might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a
drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

And when the temperature drops ... although I suppose some of you guys don't
live where that happens ... the alcohol can get dumped. Refer to the
excellent link posted by John Wentworth to "2003 Marine Manufacturere Fuel
Recommendations" at http://www.ethanolrfa.org/2003marine.pdf

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water
in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance.


In article
le.rogers.com,
Bowgus wrote:

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning
there
is no
such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some
in
the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to
prevent
gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with
water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the
water
in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If
that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine
might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by
a
drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved.
My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left
and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good
for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How
is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:28:58 GMT,
Rich Hampel wrote:
Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water
in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance.


So does this mean that a 55 gal drum of water, will form an emulsion
when you add 1 drop of Ethanol to it? this doesn't make sense.

Surely there's some point at which adding more water to the ethanol will
leave a non-emulsified amount of water?



In article
ble.rogers.com,
Bowgus wrote:

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning
there is no such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Proud Member of THRUSH:
the Technological Hierarchy for the Removal of Undesirables
and the Subjugation of Humanity

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:28:58 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water
in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance.

The first line should warn you that a mistake is in the offing.

Here are some definitions:
"azeotrope" a mixture of liquids with a constant boiling temperature
- because the vapor has the same composition as the liquid.

Contrast this with a mix of grain acohol (aka ethanol) and water:
when heated, the ethanol evolves preferentially: this process is
called "distillation"

An "emulsion" is a preparation of two immiscible liquids: though they
will not mutually dissolve, finely divided particles of one phase
remain stable in the other component, often with a milky appearance:
mayonnaise is a classic example.

The problem in the lines quoted is the confusion between water/oil or
water/gasoline mixes which CAN emulsify - and water/alcohol mixes
which DO NOT emulsify.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Nope 10% ethanol mixed with gasoline will result in the water component
forming into an emulsified form which doesnt separate readily.

Actually the additional water content helps increase the "octane"
number, and also helps to clean the piston ring grooves, blows the
carbon out of the combustion chamber, etc.
Some engines (back in 'muscle car days') used water injection to boost
power output while helping to cool the combustion chambers.


article gers.com,
Bowgus wrote:

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

WRONG! No matter how much alcohol you add to gasoline, once it is mixed, any
water in the alcohol will separate almost immediately. Water does nothing to
increase the octane of any fossil fuel. When water injection was used on
automobiles it was used to slow the burn time of cheap low octane gasoline. By
adding water you could keep your timing advanced to specs without the clatter
of a pinging engine from detonation on high compression engines. One primary
reason alcohol is added to fuel is its ability to retain more oxygen so when
added to gasoline you actually end up with a more efficent burn. Its an EPA
thing. Alcohol actually has a lower octane rating but because of its added
oxygenation properties, its benficial when added to gasoline.

From: Rich Hampel
Date: 9/21/04 11:26 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Nope 10% ethanol mixed with gasoline will result in the water component
forming into an emulsified form which doesnt separate readily.

Actually the additional water content helps increase the "octane"
number, and also helps to clean the piston ring grooves, blows the
carbon out of the combustion chamber, etc.
Some engines (back in 'muscle car days') used water injection to boost
power output while helping to cool the combustion chambers.

WRONG! No matter how much alcohol you add to gasoline, once it is mixed, any
water in the alcohol will separate almost immediately

where did you learn this? please be specific, as millions of drivers with
experience in cold winter states disagree with you.

ospam (DDeanFountain) wrote in message ...
One primary
reason alcohol is added to fuel is its ability to retain more oxygen so when
added to gasoline you actually end up with a more efficent burn. Its an EPA
thing.

Reduction of CO emissions during warm-up for carbureted engines.

Alcohol actually has a lower octane rating but because of its added
oxygenation properties, its benficial when added to gasoline.

Depends on the alcohol, but the most common added to gasoline are
ethanol and methanol, each with octane numbers of 100 or so. They
boost the octane.

%mod%

mod knock it off. even 25% alcohol to gas hardly raises the octane
---------------- rating ------------------ at all. you have been reading
1940's Popular Mechanix mags again. tsk tsk

Depends on the alcohol, but the most common added to gasoline are
ethanol and methanol, each with octane numbers of 100 or so. They
boost the octane.

Reduction of CO emissions during warm-up for carbureted engines.


mum mum vador, knock it off. for all practical purposes there are no carbueted
auto engines on the road for a very long time. I believe that last such sold
as new was the miserable CVCC engine, and that was well more than 25 years ago.