Comments Below.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
I have moved to the "lighter is better" approach, partly because I have a
cat
which would suffer if I used a big CQR and all chain, but mainly because
I've
found the most important part of anchoring is getting properly set in the
right
place, which is a lot easier with lighter gear.


I have to dissagree. Lighter anchors tend to float and flutter so that
getting
then to set where you want is harder. Heavier anchors drop quickly and
tend to stay put while paying out the rode. I have a Spade anchor that is
rated for a boat that is
far larger than mine. It won't set reliably in sand and grass. So lighter
is easier to handle but certainly doesn;t give as reliable set as a heavier
anchor. I understand that the Fortress anchors do perform very well
for their weight, but I will be getting one that is still oversized for my
boat. I read that any anchor less than 35 pounds will not set well.
Just not enough weight to allow it to settle in reliably.


--
-jeff www.sv-loki.com
"Constant Vigilance!" - Frances W. Wright


"Garuda" wrote in message
...
I will wait for the response of the grand and to the point of JAXAshby!

David&Joan wrote:
I am a firm disbeliever in stern anchors. They cause more problems than they
solve. If you think you must use a stern anchor, think about anchoring
somewhere else first.

Why would it matter which end of the boat the anchor was set from?

Does the bottom react differently? How does it know? Does the anchor know?

DSK

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
I have moved to the "lighter is better" approach, partly because I have a
cat
which would suffer if I used a big CQR and all chain, but mainly because
I've
found the most important part of anchoring is getting properly set in the
right
place, which is a lot easier with lighter gear.


I have to dissagree. Lighter anchors tend to float and flutter so that
getting
then to set where you want is harder.

I said lighter, not underweight. Cruisers should always go up at least one
size, especially on the primary, simply because the sizing charts are based on
45 knots of wind. And while many boaters swear by their CQRs, I've heard a lot
of stories about how they drag on their sides for 100 feet before setting (and
experienced it myself); I've even seen videos of this. My somewhat smaller
Delta tends to land "point first" and sets with less hassle.


Heavier anchors drop quickly and
tend to stay put while paying out the rode. I have a Spade anchor that is
rated for a boat that is
far larger than mine. It won't set reliably in sand and grass.

The ability to set in a given situation has absolutely nothing to do with the
size of your boat. What you're saying is that Spade anchors aren't good in
grass. Many anchors have trouble in grass, and more often than not you end up
hooking to the grass which gradually gives way. When I have to anchor in grass
I double anchor.

So lighter
is easier to handle but certainly doesn;t give as reliable set as a heavier
anchor. I understand that the Fortress anchors do perform very well
for their weight, but I will be getting one that is still oversized for my
boat.

You should consider the light weight of a Fortress an oppurtunity to go up one
size. My "lunch hook" is a FX23, which is rated for boats 39 to 45 feet (mine
is a 36 foot cat). But it only weighs 15 pounds. I have a modest amount of
chain on it (20 feet), just enough to ensure it will go straight down.
Frankly, adding more chain doesn't help it hold better in the double anchor
situation, but it does make it more difficult to set, since you can't "feel the
bottom" as well. And it certainly doesn't help if you have to row it out or
haul by hand.

Its true that the smaller Fortresses (10 pounds and under) can "sail" in a
current - when you lower one you should watch the orientation carefully, since
they can end up 10 or 20 feet away from where you intend.

I read that any anchor less than 35 pounds will not set well.
Just not enough weight to allow it to settle in reliably.

I'd have to agree that my Delta 35 seems to set easier than my previous Delta
22, but I went to the 22 (on my previous boat, a Nonsuch 30) because the CQR 35
it came with was a pain to deploy and worse to recover, and was more prone to
drag before setting. I also reduced the chain from 90 feet to 45, and life was
much better.

I have to agree that the CQR is more difficult to set and there is
definitely a technique to setting it. I saw far more CQRs in the
Bahamas than any other anchor. Our 45 poundes saved our
cookies when the Spade wouldn;t set. You can;t just drop it
and back down on is though. Our Spade just flopped over on its
side and dragged and wasn;t heavy enough to get a bite.

I'm planning on getting a 45 lb Fortress as a sand/grass anchor and
also to use as a storm anchor.

DOug
s/v Callista

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
I have moved to the "lighter is better" approach, partly because I have
a
cat
which would suffer if I used a big CQR and all chain, but mainly
because
I've
found the most important part of anchoring is getting properly set in
the
right
place, which is a lot easier with lighter gear.


I have to dissagree. Lighter anchors tend to float and flutter so that
getting
then to set where you want is harder.

I said lighter, not underweight. Cruisers should always go up at least
one
size, especially on the primary, simply because the sizing charts are
based on
45 knots of wind. And while many boaters swear by their CQRs, I've heard
a lot
of stories about how they drag on their sides for 100 feet before setting
(and
experienced it myself); I've even seen videos of this. My somewhat
smaller
Delta tends to land "point first" and sets with less hassle.


Heavier anchors drop quickly and
tend to stay put while paying out the rode. I have a Spade anchor that is
rated for a boat that is
far larger than mine. It won't set reliably in sand and grass.

The ability to set in a given situation has absolutely nothing to do with
the
size of your boat. What you're saying is that Spade anchors aren't good
in
grass. Many anchors have trouble in grass, and more often than not you
end up
hooking to the grass which gradually gives way. When I have to anchor in
grass
I double anchor.

So lighter
is easier to handle but certainly doesn;t give as reliable set as a
heavier
anchor. I understand that the Fortress anchors do perform very well
for their weight, but I will be getting one that is still oversized for
my
boat.

You should consider the light weight of a Fortress an oppurtunity to go up
one
size. My "lunch hook" is a FX23, which is rated for boats 39 to 45 feet
(mine
is a 36 foot cat). But it only weighs 15 pounds. I have a modest amount
of
chain on it (20 feet), just enough to ensure it will go straight down.
Frankly, adding more chain doesn't help it hold better in the double
anchor
situation, but it does make it more difficult to set, since you can't
"feel the
bottom" as well. And it certainly doesn't help if you have to row it out
or
haul by hand.

Its true that the smaller Fortresses (10 pounds and under) can "sail" in
a
current - when you lower one you should watch the orientation carefully,
since
they can end up 10 or 20 feet away from where you intend.

I read that any anchor less than 35 pounds will not set well.
Just not enough weight to allow it to settle in reliably.

I'd have to agree that my Delta 35 seems to set easier than my previous
Delta
22, but I went to the 22 (on my previous boat, a Nonsuch 30) because the
CQR 35
it came with was a pain to deploy and worse to recover, and was more prone
to
drag before setting. I also reduced the chain from 90 feet to 45, and
life was
much better.

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
I have to agree that the CQR is more difficult to set and there is
definitely a technique to setting it. I saw far more CQRs in the
Bahamas than any other anchor. Our 45 poundes saved our
cookies when the Spade wouldn;t set. You can;t just drop it
and back down on is though. Our Spade just flopped over on its
side and dragged and wasn;t heavy enough to get a bite.


One lesson learned in our Nonsuch, which refused to back in a straight line
anyways, was to just wait for a few minutes, and then very gradually add backing
power. This certainly works for the Delta which almost always sets within a few
feet of where it lands; I've heard that CQR owners use the same tecnique and I'd
guess it also works for the Spade.

A Fortress (or Danforth) however, shouldn't need this as long as there is enough
scope - 2:1 is too little, 3:1 is better - its very satisfying to feel it dig
in. Of course, more scope should be let out in most situations.

I'm planning on getting a 45 lb Fortress as a sand/grass anchor and
also to use as a storm anchor.

45 pounds? Do you mean the FX85 which is 47 pounds? This a monster (the shank
is 51"), which I wouldn't mind having as a storm anchor, but it seems a bit
large to keep on deck. How big is your boat?

BTW, I've had Danforth style anchors tear out some weeds, then flop over and
refuse to reset because the weed is holding the flukes up. THis is why I
wouldn't use a Fortress as the only anchor overnight, except possibly in soft
mud. Perhaps the FX85 is big enough to avoid this problem, but how can you
really be sure?



DOug
s/v Callista

Assuming an anchor from the bow is to be deployed using the windlass,
what is the proper technique for deploying a second anchor and what is
recommended to secure it's rode ?


There are different ways to use the second anchor. You can set it in different
ways to. It will depend on if you are just anchoring or if you have been there
for a while. The easiest way is the best. I have set both from the bow by
setting one and then motoring to where I want the second and then setting it.
If I am already anchored and want to set a second bow anchor I use the dinghy.
If you have a small outboard you will not be able to set a second anchor with
all chain. Their is to much weight there to pull out.

I prefer to set stern anchors with the dinghy. It is easier to get the boat
lined up and pointed in the right direction. I use it mostly to point the boat
into a swell.

Also, if the original is not left on the windlass, what is regarded as
the stoutest method of securing it as well ?


I use double nylon snubbing lines with a devils claw to attach to the chain.

Both rodes might be all chain, or mixed.


My boat stays pointed into the wind when I use both (one all chain and one with
30 feet of chain and the rest nylon line) off the bow close to each other. No
sailing back and forth.


Dick

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
I have to agree that the CQR is more difficult to set and there is
definitely a technique to setting it. I saw far more CQRs in the
Bahamas than any other anchor. Our 45 poundes saved our
cookies when the Spade wouldn;t set. You can;t just drop it
and back down on is though. Our Spade just flopped over on its
side and dragged and wasn;t heavy enough to get a bite.


One lesson learned in our Nonsuch, which refused to back in a straight
line
anyways, was to just wait for a few minutes, and then very gradually add
backing
power. This certainly works for the Delta which almost always sets within
a few
feet of where it lands; I've heard that CQR owners use the same tecnique
and I'd
guess it also works for the Spade.

I definitely works for the CQR as this the standard way to set one. I tried
this with the Spade with no luck. I even dove on the anchor and pushed the
point into the bottom. Even with the boat just drifting back, it just
flopped over and
dragged over the grass. It is an aluminum Spade. I suspect the steel Spade
will work much better.

45 pounds? Do you mean the FX85 which is 47 pounds? This a monster (the
shank
is 51"), which I wouldn't mind having as a storm anchor, but it seems a
bit
large to keep on deck. How big is your boat?

Yup, that's the one I want and yes it will be my storm anchor but will be
used as a backup where my Bruce or CQR will not set. Won't be kept on
deck normally. Boat is 43' and there is plenty of room to keep it on
deck if necessary..

BTW, I've had Danforth style anchors tear out some weeds, then flop over
and
refuse to reset because the weed is holding the flukes up. THis is why I
wouldn't use a Fortress as the only anchor overnight, except possibly in
soft
mud. Perhaps the FX85 is big enough to avoid this problem, but how can
you
really be sure?

Danforth style anchors are not known to reset well. They quite often
tangle in their rode and don't reset. If I used one in sand or grass it
would
be in a Bahamian moor with the CQR on the other end if the current is
likely to change direction.




DOug
s/v Callista

In article ,
"Doug Dotson" wrote:

I have to dissagree. Lighter anchors tend to float and flutter so
that getting then to set where you want is harder. Heavier anchors
drop quickly and tend to stay put while paying out the rode. I have a
Spade anchor that is rated for a boat that is far larger than mine.
It won't set reliably in sand and grass.

I believe you're the one report I've heard of a Spade not hooking well.
I tried ours (aluminum 80) in every "tough" spot I'd found in my travels
and it hooked every time, though I had to go slow in one hard
current-swept sand spot. One or two of them were weedy, and it hooked
without any trouble.

Then again, I've got oversized chain (30') hooked to it. That's twice
the weight of the anchor. Where it hits, it hooks.

I'm also of the "kick it overboard and let the boat settle back"
mentality, which could be a difference. I'll only back down after a few
minutes, and then not very violently.

Last weekend, we were rafted up with 10 boats, about 100k pounds (we're
7k) with the two 40+' big boats. After a wind shift, our anchor, put out
only to angle the raft into the waves, held everyone quite nicely in 15+
knot winds for a couple of days. One poor sod not looking where he was
going, was quite surprised when he was slingshot backwards after trying
to run his outdrive through that line ;-) The big boats' anchors didn't
do squat most of the weekend.

(yeah, hauling anchor was a bear: As far as I can tell, the anchor was
buried in 5 or so feet of that lovely Chesapeake Bay mud on Monday.)

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Several posters have apparently had some trouble getting a spade
anchor to set. There was a discussion just on 8/11/04 in this
newsgroup about that. See BVI Anchor Test - Glenn Ashmore

The conclusion was to let the spade sit and dig in on its own for a
little while before trying to back down with the engine. Those who
drop the anchor and just let the boat fall back with the wind seem to
be successful. Waiting apparently lets the heavy point begin to sink
in on its own.

I do not have any personal experience with this. I am just repeating
what was recently posted.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Doug Dotson" wrote:

I have to dissagree. Lighter anchors tend to float and flutter so
that getting then to set where you want is harder. Heavier anchors
drop quickly and tend to stay put while paying out the rode. I have a
Spade anchor that is rated for a boat that is far larger than mine.
It won't set reliably in sand and grass.

I believe you're the one report I've heard of a Spade not hooking well.
I tried ours (aluminum 80) in every "tough" spot I'd found in my travels
and it hooked every time, though I had to go slow in one hard
current-swept sand spot. One or two of them were weedy, and it hooked
without any trouble.

We found it very reliable in everything we encountered until
we got into the Bahamas. Then it was hit or miss. Had to resort to the CQR
several times.

Then again, I've got oversized chain (30') hooked to it. That's twice
the weight of the anchor. Where it hits, it hooks.

We have 3/8" all chain.

I'm also of the "kick it overboard and let the boat settle back"
mentality, which could be a difference. I'll only back down after a few
minutes, and then not very violently.

Same here, although I have to lower it using the windlass. Then I pay
out chain while the boat drifts back. Once it settles in I back down on
it gently severla times until I get a set.

Last weekend, we were rafted up with 10 boats, about 100k pounds (we're
7k) with the two 40+' big boats. After a wind shift, our anchor, put out
only to angle the raft into the waves, held everyone quite nicely in 15+
knot winds for a couple of days. One poor sod not looking where he was
going, was quite surprised when he was slingshot backwards after trying
to run his outdrive through that line ;-) The big boats' anchors didn't
do squat most of the weekend.

(yeah, hauling anchor was a bear: As far as I can tell, the anchor was
buried in 5 or so feet of that lovely Chesapeake Bay mud on Monday.)

The bay is a forgiving place in terms of anchor. I've never dragged
anchor anywhere on the bay. Same with the ICW and FL. Only
started having trouble with the Spade in the Bahamas and then pretty
much only in grass.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/