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what's the best way to deploy the second anchor ?
Assuming an anchor from the bow is to be deployed using the windlass,
what is the proper technique for deploying a second anchor and what is recommended to secure it's rode ? For example, if the second anchor is taken out in the dinghy and lowered away, what is then the best technique for securing the second's rode for storm security ? Also, if the original is not left on the windlass, what is regarded as the stoutest method of securing it as well ? Both rodes might be all chain, or mixed. Appreciatively, Courtney -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 |
Our setup is that our primary anchor is maintianed on the windlass.
One deployed we secure it with a chain stopper on a bridle that is secured to both foredeck cleats. Once secured the windlass is free to be used for the secondary anchor. Once set, it is secured to a deck cleat (it is 50 ft chain and the rest rope). Doug s/v Callista "Courtney Thomas" wrote in message ... Assuming an anchor from the bow is to be deployed using the windlass, what is the proper technique for deploying a second anchor and what is recommended to secure it's rode ? For example, if the second anchor is taken out in the dinghy and lowered away, what is then the best technique for securing the second's rode for storm security ? Also, if the original is not left on the windlass, what is regarded as the stoutest method of securing it as well ? Both rodes might be all chain, or mixed. Appreciatively, Courtney -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 |
For deployment, one good method is to set your first anchor and let out
twice the scope or length you will need. Then drop the second anchor at that spot. Pull in on the first rode to the desired scope while letting out on the second. You are now anchored with a Bahamian Moor. Courtney Thomas wrote: Assuming an anchor from the bow is to be deployed using the windlass, what is the proper technique for deploying a second anchor and what is recommended to secure it's rode ? For example, if the second anchor is taken out in the dinghy and lowered away, what is then the best technique for securing the second's rode for storm security ? Also, if the original is not left on the windlass, what is regarded as the stoutest method of securing it as well ? Both rodes might be all chain, or mixed. Appreciatively, Courtney |
This doesn't answer the OP's question in any way. What is your
point? Doug s/v Callista "Bill Adams" wrote in message news:iOq%c.4615$j62.2895@trnddc04... For deployment, one good method is to set your first anchor and let out twice the scope or length you will need. Then drop the second anchor at that spot. Pull in on the first rode to the desired scope while letting out on the second. You are now anchored with a Bahamian Moor. Courtney Thomas wrote: Assuming an anchor from the bow is to be deployed using the windlass, what is the proper technique for deploying a second anchor and what is recommended to secure it's rode ? For example, if the second anchor is taken out in the dinghy and lowered away, what is then the best technique for securing the second's rode for storm security ? Also, if the original is not left on the windlass, what is regarded as the stoutest method of securing it as well ? Both rodes might be all chain, or mixed. Appreciatively, Courtney |
I will wait for the response of the grand and to the point of JAXAshby!
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 16:55:45 -0500, Courtney Thomas
wrote: Assuming an anchor from the bow is to be deployed using the windlass, what is the proper technique for deploying a second anchor and what is recommended to secure it's rode ? Depends on whether you're doing a true "Bahamian" moor ( usually used in strong tidal streams) or setting the two anchors forward in a "V". In a Bahamian moor drop the first one, set, drop back to max. drop the second one, steam ahead till both are at the right scope. Chain secure with a snubber, line on a cleat. For example, if the second anchor is taken out in the dinghy and lowered away, what is then the best technique for securing the second's rode for storm security ? You never need to take the second anchor out with a dinghy. With the Bahamian moor just drop back and let go. With the "V" set the first anchor - drop back to the right scope, let some more line out- about forty feet, steam at right angles to the set anchor ( if port down first steam starboard and vice versa) as the set anchor rode takes the strain your boat will start closing the right angle. When you get pulled ahead to about where the first hook was dropped, drop the second one, with practice you'll get them about 50 -60 degrees apart. Take up the slack in the first anchor. Especially good with a boat that skates a lot. Of course it's advisable to anchor the same way as the other boats in the anchorage, unless there's tons of room between boats. Also, if the original is not left on the windlass, what is regarded as the stoutest method of securing it as well ? Snub it with a good length (25-30 ft) of nylon and a chain hook. Wrap the loose chain around a cleat. Both rodes might be all chain, or mixed. Both chain, snub them both. Line , cleat it. Appreciatively, Courtney Rick Itenson Breathless Toronto |
First, get a good book on anchoring such as:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...662172-8296016 or http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...662172-8296016 or http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...662172-8296016 That will tell you most of what you need to know. That said, you are probably wanting to know some of the stuff that is so basic that it never makes it into the books. First, you need to know why you are puting out a second anchor in the first place. If it is because of a crowded anchorage, then you will need to cleat the second rode at the aft end of the vessel. If it is for changing winds or tides, then a bahamian moor is best. If it a storm that concerns you, then I don't think that you want to attach a rode to your stern because if the wind shift catches you abeam, you are likely to drag BOTH anchors (due to increased windage) where a single anchor would have held. So my assumption is that you intend to set both anchors at 60 degrees from each other off your bow (covered in the aforementioned books) for extreme storm situations where you are forced to ride out at anchor. The first anchor is set normally and the load is taken off the windlass using snubbers to your deck cleats. The second anchor is rowed out in the dinghy. If it is an all chain rode, that will be a pretty tough row. The second rode is also snubbed to deck cleats. The windlass NEVER should accept any strain from anchor rodes except as a back-up to the snubbers ( the grinding of the gears and the creaking of the mounting bolts is your 30 second warning to get on deck and check things out). You asked about secure rode fastening. First be sure that your deck cleats are firmly attached and well backed up with backing plates. The vintage of your vessel probably means that you have a sampson post as well, It is likely to be your strongest attachment, use it for your main rode snubbers. Try to distribute your snubbers to as many different pieces of deck hardware as you can. That way if one lets loose, you are still firmly attached. Pay particular attention to sources of chafe on your snubbers. Size your snubbers according to the tables in the books. The chain in your locker is your last line of defense if your snubbers fail. Be sure your bitter end is secured. On a different subject, I still have not had a chance to scan images of my boat trailer for you, but I will forward them on once I get a chance. David Braun s/v Nausicaa |
What makes you think jaxie has ever anchored, let alone double anchored? He has
tried to make the case that a single Danforth is all the anchor you ever need. I used to think double anchoring was hard, until I started using it more often. For heavy weather, the goal is to have the two anchors rodes at about a 45 degree angle, with the anchors roughly equal distances ahead. After setting the primary (presumably your heaviest, most reliable anchor), let out some extra rode and power over to where the second belongs and set that. Then adjust both rodes. A few things help: while the primary is probably a heavy plow (or Bruce, or Spade, etc) with a lot of chain and perhaps a windlass, the secondary does not have to be the same. A Danforth, or better yet, an oversized Fortress, will have tremendous holding power and can be set easily with limited chain. The one flaw of this style anchor, failing to reset on a shift, is not a problem in the double anchor setup. It can be deployed by hand and usually set with a sharp tug, and is light enough to set from a dink. For the record, I use a Delta 35 with 50 feet of chain plus nylon rode as my primary, and a Fortress FX23 with 20 feet of chain as a lunch hook/secondary. I have moved to the "lighter is better" approach, partly because I have a cat which would suffer if I used a big CQR and all chain, but mainly because I've found the most important part of anchoring is getting properly set in the right place, which is a lot easier with lighter gear. -- -jeff www.sv-loki.com "Constant Vigilance!" - Frances W. Wright "Garuda" wrote in message ... I will wait for the response of the grand and to the point of JAXAshby! |
I am a firm disbeliever in stern anchors. They cause more problems than they
solve. If you think you must use a stern anchor, think about anchoring somewhere else first. David |
You need to learn how they should be used.
Doug s/v Callista "David&Joan" wrote in message news:mTu%c.21143$9Y5.20176@fed1read02... I am a firm disbeliever in stern anchors. They cause more problems than they solve. If you think you must use a stern anchor, think about anchoring somewhere else first. David |
Comments Below.
Doug s/v Callista "Jeff Morris" wrote in message ... I have moved to the "lighter is better" approach, partly because I have a cat which would suffer if I used a big CQR and all chain, but mainly because I've found the most important part of anchoring is getting properly set in the right place, which is a lot easier with lighter gear. I have to dissagree. Lighter anchors tend to float and flutter so that getting then to set where you want is harder. Heavier anchors drop quickly and tend to stay put while paying out the rode. I have a Spade anchor that is rated for a boat that is far larger than mine. It won't set reliably in sand and grass. So lighter is easier to handle but certainly doesn;t give as reliable set as a heavier anchor. I understand that the Fortress anchors do perform very well for their weight, but I will be getting one that is still oversized for my boat. I read that any anchor less than 35 pounds will not set well. Just not enough weight to allow it to settle in reliably. -- -jeff www.sv-loki.com "Constant Vigilance!" - Frances W. Wright "Garuda" wrote in message ... I will wait for the response of the grand and to the point of JAXAshby! |
David&Joan wrote:
I am a firm disbeliever in stern anchors. They cause more problems than they solve. If you think you must use a stern anchor, think about anchoring somewhere else first. Why would it matter which end of the boat the anchor was set from? Does the bottom react differently? How does it know? Does the anchor know? DSK |
"Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... "Jeff Morris" wrote in message ... I have moved to the "lighter is better" approach, partly because I have a cat which would suffer if I used a big CQR and all chain, but mainly because I've found the most important part of anchoring is getting properly set in the right place, which is a lot easier with lighter gear. I have to dissagree. Lighter anchors tend to float and flutter so that getting then to set where you want is harder. I said lighter, not underweight. Cruisers should always go up at least one size, especially on the primary, simply because the sizing charts are based on 45 knots of wind. And while many boaters swear by their CQRs, I've heard a lot of stories about how they drag on their sides for 100 feet before setting (and experienced it myself); I've even seen videos of this. My somewhat smaller Delta tends to land "point first" and sets with less hassle. Heavier anchors drop quickly and tend to stay put while paying out the rode. I have a Spade anchor that is rated for a boat that is far larger than mine. It won't set reliably in sand and grass. The ability to set in a given situation has absolutely nothing to do with the size of your boat. What you're saying is that Spade anchors aren't good in grass. Many anchors have trouble in grass, and more often than not you end up hooking to the grass which gradually gives way. When I have to anchor in grass I double anchor. So lighter is easier to handle but certainly doesn;t give as reliable set as a heavier anchor. I understand that the Fortress anchors do perform very well for their weight, but I will be getting one that is still oversized for my boat. You should consider the light weight of a Fortress an oppurtunity to go up one size. My "lunch hook" is a FX23, which is rated for boats 39 to 45 feet (mine is a 36 foot cat). But it only weighs 15 pounds. I have a modest amount of chain on it (20 feet), just enough to ensure it will go straight down. Frankly, adding more chain doesn't help it hold better in the double anchor situation, but it does make it more difficult to set, since you can't "feel the bottom" as well. And it certainly doesn't help if you have to row it out or haul by hand. Its true that the smaller Fortresses (10 pounds and under) can "sail" in a current - when you lower one you should watch the orientation carefully, since they can end up 10 or 20 feet away from where you intend. I read that any anchor less than 35 pounds will not set well. Just not enough weight to allow it to settle in reliably. I'd have to agree that my Delta 35 seems to set easier than my previous Delta 22, but I went to the 22 (on my previous boat, a Nonsuch 30) because the CQR 35 it came with was a pain to deploy and worse to recover, and was more prone to drag before setting. I also reduced the chain from 90 feet to 45, and life was much better. |
I have to agree that the CQR is more difficult to set and there is
definitely a technique to setting it. I saw far more CQRs in the Bahamas than any other anchor. Our 45 poundes saved our cookies when the Spade wouldn;t set. You can;t just drop it and back down on is though. Our Spade just flopped over on its side and dragged and wasn;t heavy enough to get a bite. I'm planning on getting a 45 lb Fortress as a sand/grass anchor and also to use as a storm anchor. DOug s/v Callista "Jeff Morris" wrote in message ... "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... "Jeff Morris" wrote in message ... I have moved to the "lighter is better" approach, partly because I have a cat which would suffer if I used a big CQR and all chain, but mainly because I've found the most important part of anchoring is getting properly set in the right place, which is a lot easier with lighter gear. I have to dissagree. Lighter anchors tend to float and flutter so that getting then to set where you want is harder. I said lighter, not underweight. Cruisers should always go up at least one size, especially on the primary, simply because the sizing charts are based on 45 knots of wind. And while many boaters swear by their CQRs, I've heard a lot of stories about how they drag on their sides for 100 feet before setting (and experienced it myself); I've even seen videos of this. My somewhat smaller Delta tends to land "point first" and sets with less hassle. Heavier anchors drop quickly and tend to stay put while paying out the rode. I have a Spade anchor that is rated for a boat that is far larger than mine. It won't set reliably in sand and grass. The ability to set in a given situation has absolutely nothing to do with the size of your boat. What you're saying is that Spade anchors aren't good in grass. Many anchors have trouble in grass, and more often than not you end up hooking to the grass which gradually gives way. When I have to anchor in grass I double anchor. So lighter is easier to handle but certainly doesn;t give as reliable set as a heavier anchor. I understand that the Fortress anchors do perform very well for their weight, but I will be getting one that is still oversized for my boat. You should consider the light weight of a Fortress an oppurtunity to go up one size. My "lunch hook" is a FX23, which is rated for boats 39 to 45 feet (mine is a 36 foot cat). But it only weighs 15 pounds. I have a modest amount of chain on it (20 feet), just enough to ensure it will go straight down. Frankly, adding more chain doesn't help it hold better in the double anchor situation, but it does make it more difficult to set, since you can't "feel the bottom" as well. And it certainly doesn't help if you have to row it out or haul by hand. Its true that the smaller Fortresses (10 pounds and under) can "sail" in a current - when you lower one you should watch the orientation carefully, since they can end up 10 or 20 feet away from where you intend. I read that any anchor less than 35 pounds will not set well. Just not enough weight to allow it to settle in reliably. I'd have to agree that my Delta 35 seems to set easier than my previous Delta 22, but I went to the 22 (on my previous boat, a Nonsuch 30) because the CQR 35 it came with was a pain to deploy and worse to recover, and was more prone to drag before setting. I also reduced the chain from 90 feet to 45, and life was much better. |
"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
... I have to agree that the CQR is more difficult to set and there is definitely a technique to setting it. I saw far more CQRs in the Bahamas than any other anchor. Our 45 poundes saved our cookies when the Spade wouldn;t set. You can;t just drop it and back down on is though. Our Spade just flopped over on its side and dragged and wasn;t heavy enough to get a bite. One lesson learned in our Nonsuch, which refused to back in a straight line anyways, was to just wait for a few minutes, and then very gradually add backing power. This certainly works for the Delta which almost always sets within a few feet of where it lands; I've heard that CQR owners use the same tecnique and I'd guess it also works for the Spade. A Fortress (or Danforth) however, shouldn't need this as long as there is enough scope - 2:1 is too little, 3:1 is better - its very satisfying to feel it dig in. Of course, more scope should be let out in most situations. I'm planning on getting a 45 lb Fortress as a sand/grass anchor and also to use as a storm anchor. 45 pounds? Do you mean the FX85 which is 47 pounds? This a monster (the shank is 51"), which I wouldn't mind having as a storm anchor, but it seems a bit large to keep on deck. How big is your boat? BTW, I've had Danforth style anchors tear out some weeds, then flop over and refuse to reset because the weed is holding the flukes up. THis is why I wouldn't use a Fortress as the only anchor overnight, except possibly in soft mud. Perhaps the FX85 is big enough to avoid this problem, but how can you really be sure? DOug s/v Callista |
Assuming an anchor from the bow is to be deployed using the windlass,
what is the proper technique for deploying a second anchor and what is recommended to secure it's rode ? There are different ways to use the second anchor. You can set it in different ways to. It will depend on if you are just anchoring or if you have been there for a while. The easiest way is the best. I have set both from the bow by setting one and then motoring to where I want the second and then setting it. If I am already anchored and want to set a second bow anchor I use the dinghy. If you have a small outboard you will not be able to set a second anchor with all chain. Their is to much weight there to pull out. I prefer to set stern anchors with the dinghy. It is easier to get the boat lined up and pointed in the right direction. I use it mostly to point the boat into a swell. Also, if the original is not left on the windlass, what is regarded as the stoutest method of securing it as well ? I use double nylon snubbing lines with a devils claw to attach to the chain. Both rodes might be all chain, or mixed. My boat stays pointed into the wind when I use both (one all chain and one with 30 feet of chain and the rest nylon line) off the bow close to each other. No sailing back and forth. Dick |
"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ... "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I have to agree that the CQR is more difficult to set and there is definitely a technique to setting it. I saw far more CQRs in the Bahamas than any other anchor. Our 45 poundes saved our cookies when the Spade wouldn;t set. You can;t just drop it and back down on is though. Our Spade just flopped over on its side and dragged and wasn;t heavy enough to get a bite. One lesson learned in our Nonsuch, which refused to back in a straight line anyways, was to just wait for a few minutes, and then very gradually add backing power. This certainly works for the Delta which almost always sets within a few feet of where it lands; I've heard that CQR owners use the same tecnique and I'd guess it also works for the Spade. I definitely works for the CQR as this the standard way to set one. I tried this with the Spade with no luck. I even dove on the anchor and pushed the point into the bottom. Even with the boat just drifting back, it just flopped over and dragged over the grass. It is an aluminum Spade. I suspect the steel Spade will work much better. 45 pounds? Do you mean the FX85 which is 47 pounds? This a monster (the shank is 51"), which I wouldn't mind having as a storm anchor, but it seems a bit large to keep on deck. How big is your boat? Yup, that's the one I want and yes it will be my storm anchor but will be used as a backup where my Bruce or CQR will not set. Won't be kept on deck normally. Boat is 43' and there is plenty of room to keep it on deck if necessary.. BTW, I've had Danforth style anchors tear out some weeds, then flop over and refuse to reset because the weed is holding the flukes up. THis is why I wouldn't use a Fortress as the only anchor overnight, except possibly in soft mud. Perhaps the FX85 is big enough to avoid this problem, but how can you really be sure? Danforth style anchors are not known to reset well. They quite often tangle in their rode and don't reset. If I used one in sand or grass it would be in a Bahamian moor with the CQR on the other end if the current is likely to change direction. DOug s/v Callista |
In article ,
"Doug Dotson" wrote: I have to dissagree. Lighter anchors tend to float and flutter so that getting then to set where you want is harder. Heavier anchors drop quickly and tend to stay put while paying out the rode. I have a Spade anchor that is rated for a boat that is far larger than mine. It won't set reliably in sand and grass. I believe you're the one report I've heard of a Spade not hooking well. I tried ours (aluminum 80) in every "tough" spot I'd found in my travels and it hooked every time, though I had to go slow in one hard current-swept sand spot. One or two of them were weedy, and it hooked without any trouble. Then again, I've got oversized chain (30') hooked to it. That's twice the weight of the anchor. Where it hits, it hooks. I'm also of the "kick it overboard and let the boat settle back" mentality, which could be a difference. I'll only back down after a few minutes, and then not very violently. Last weekend, we were rafted up with 10 boats, about 100k pounds (we're 7k) with the two 40+' big boats. After a wind shift, our anchor, put out only to angle the raft into the waves, held everyone quite nicely in 15+ knot winds for a couple of days. One poor sod not looking where he was going, was quite surprised when he was slingshot backwards after trying to run his outdrive through that line ;-) The big boats' anchors didn't do squat most of the weekend. (yeah, hauling anchor was a bear: As far as I can tell, the anchor was buried in 5 or so feet of that lovely Chesapeake Bay mud on Monday.) -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Several posters have apparently had some trouble getting a spade
anchor to set. There was a discussion just on 8/11/04 in this newsgroup about that. See BVI Anchor Test - Glenn Ashmore The conclusion was to let the spade sit and dig in on its own for a little while before trying to back down with the engine. Those who drop the anchor and just let the boat fall back with the wind seem to be successful. Waiting apparently lets the heavy point begin to sink in on its own. I do not have any personal experience with this. I am just repeating what was recently posted. Lee Huddleston s/v Truelove |
"Jere Lull" wrote in message ... In article , "Doug Dotson" wrote: I have to dissagree. Lighter anchors tend to float and flutter so that getting then to set where you want is harder. Heavier anchors drop quickly and tend to stay put while paying out the rode. I have a Spade anchor that is rated for a boat that is far larger than mine. It won't set reliably in sand and grass. I believe you're the one report I've heard of a Spade not hooking well. I tried ours (aluminum 80) in every "tough" spot I'd found in my travels and it hooked every time, though I had to go slow in one hard current-swept sand spot. One or two of them were weedy, and it hooked without any trouble. We found it very reliable in everything we encountered until we got into the Bahamas. Then it was hit or miss. Had to resort to the CQR several times. Then again, I've got oversized chain (30') hooked to it. That's twice the weight of the anchor. Where it hits, it hooks. We have 3/8" all chain. I'm also of the "kick it overboard and let the boat settle back" mentality, which could be a difference. I'll only back down after a few minutes, and then not very violently. Same here, although I have to lower it using the windlass. Then I pay out chain while the boat drifts back. Once it settles in I back down on it gently severla times until I get a set. Last weekend, we were rafted up with 10 boats, about 100k pounds (we're 7k) with the two 40+' big boats. After a wind shift, our anchor, put out only to angle the raft into the waves, held everyone quite nicely in 15+ knot winds for a couple of days. One poor sod not looking where he was going, was quite surprised when he was slingshot backwards after trying to run his outdrive through that line ;-) The big boats' anchors didn't do squat most of the weekend. (yeah, hauling anchor was a bear: As far as I can tell, the anchor was buried in 5 or so feet of that lovely Chesapeake Bay mud on Monday.) The bay is a forgiving place in terms of anchor. I've never dragged anchor anywhere on the bay. Same with the ICW and FL. Only started having trouble with the Spade in the Bahamas and then pretty much only in grass. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
DSK,
I would think that for most boats there is more stress on the anchor when anchored from the stern. The flat surface would cause more pull in a current. Less hydro dynamic. Paul "DSK" wrote in message . .. David&Joan wrote: I am a firm disbeliever in stern anchors. They cause more problems than they solve. If you think you must use a stern anchor, think about anchoring somewhere else first. Why would it matter which end of the boat the anchor was set from? Does the bottom react differently? How does it know? Does the anchor know? DSK |
Paul Schilter wrote: DSK, I would think that for most boats there is more stress on the anchor when anchored from the stern. The flat surface would cause more pull in a current. Less hydro dynamic. Paul G Depends on the boat. Many boats have a sharper "entry" from astern than they do from ahead (look at the underwater hull) |
A stern anchor isn't usually used as a sole anchor. It is used
in conjunction with a bow anchor when anchoring in close quarters to limit swinging. The most frequent use I used one for was when anchoring just outside the channel along the ICW to keep me from swinging into the channel or into the shallows. Doug s/v Callista "Paul Schilter" paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote in message ... DSK, I would think that for most boats there is more stress on the anchor when anchored from the stern. The flat surface would cause more pull in a current. Less hydro dynamic. Paul "DSK" wrote in message . .. David&Joan wrote: I am a firm disbeliever in stern anchors. They cause more problems than they solve. If you think you must use a stern anchor, think about anchoring somewhere else first. Why would it matter which end of the boat the anchor was set from? Does the bottom react differently? How does it know? Does the anchor know? DSK |
Paul Schilter wrote:
DSK, I would think that for most boats there is more stress on the anchor when anchored from the stern. The flat surface would cause more pull in a current. Less hydro dynamic. Do you mean, "less hydrodynamically efficient" as in more drag? At low speeds such as currents (and if you're anchoring in 10+ knot current, you have chosen unwisely) there is not likely to be any noticable difference. Most people worry more about dragging anchor from wind, not current. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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