hi gordon, and thanks for the reply. as far as sailing experience, i have
none. have been on a few , but was never driving the boat, just riding. i
plan on taking some lessons and sail around in the bay for a while untill i
am comfortable enough with my skills to go out of the breakwater. im not on
any particular schedule, so time frame doesnt really matter.

i wont have any experienced crew. im ready to make the move, but not sure if
my present girl friend is or not. if she does, fine , if she doesnt, ill
find one who is. i wont be going off on any long trips alone. i will be
doing a lot of single hand sailing. if the weather is good, and i want to go
out and practice a bit, im not going to wait for somebody to decide if they
want to go along or not. im going.

i think most of my sailing will no doubt be coastal, with the occasional
trip to oregon, possibly alaska, possibly hawaii. more often to mexico, or
santa barbara, san diego etc. just screwing around in general and enjoying
myself and significant other. being as worthless as possible, other than
tending to the boat etc.

anyway, going to fly to lax in a couple three weeks and go hit some marinas
and get a little better idea of what im looking at and what i think my
requirements will be. should be fun and informative. get out of the heat for
a couple days. while i think a coastal boat may suffice, i also want one
stout enough to cruise in if the feeling grabs me.

thanks again to all for the advice. it is most appreciated. best regards,
j.d.
"Gordon Wedman" wrote in message
news:NFq%c.155425$X12.69348@edtnps84...

j.d.,
I'm gonna jump in here with a bit of advice. Feel free to ignore it,
but based on the info you've given below, Since you state that there is
no real time frame, I'd suggest planning to do this in a couple of
steps. Get something smaller for a year or so. Say a 27'-30' coastal
cruiser. This will be more than enough for exploring anywhere from San
Diego to Santa Barbara, including the Channel Islands.

- It's cheap. Having never sailed much before, you may find that the
reality doesn't live up to the dream. Many find that it doesn't and are
then in the position of having a huge amount of capitol tied up in a
boat they detest and can't sell for months. Smaller boats sell much
faster than the larger cruisers simply because there's a larger market
for them. If you get an older one that's already fully depreciated,
you'll be able to sell it for just about what you paid for it.

- You'll learn much faster on a smaller boat. The ideal is to start on
something smaller than this, either a sailing dinghy or perhaps a day
sailor up to about 25' and doing this in 3 steps.

- It's safer. You're going to make mistakes. We all do. Because the
forces involved are smaller, you're mistakes are less likely to injure
somebody. In a small boat, muscle power can often prevent an
unfortunate outcome of a mistake. In a 24,000 lb boat, your mistakes
are far more likely to injure some or damage yours or someone else's boat.

- It's cheap. When you make those mistakes and wind up having to pay to
have a boat repaired, smaller boats are LOT'S cheaper to fix and do much
less damage to the other guy's boat.

- Learning to maneuver around the docks in a 24,000 lb. momentum machine
is like trying to learn to drive using a fully loaded semi in a wet ice
covered crowded parking lot. It can get real expensive, real fast.

Good luck, whatever you decide - Dan

jds wrote:
hi gordon, and thanks for the reply. as far as sailing experience, i have
none. have been on a few , but was never driving the boat, just riding. i
plan on taking some lessons and sail around in the bay for a while untill i
am comfortable enough with my skills to go out of the breakwater. im not on
any particular schedule, so time frame doesnt really matter.

i wont have any experienced crew. im ready to make the move, but not sure if
my present girl friend is or not. if she does, fine , if she doesnt, ill
find one who is. i wont be going off on any long trips alone. i will be
doing a lot of single hand sailing. if the weather is good, and i want to go
out and practice a bit, im not going to wait for somebody to decide if they
want to go along or not. im going.

i think most of my sailing will no doubt be coastal, with the occasional
trip to oregon, possibly alaska, possibly hawaii. more often to mexico, or
santa barbara, san diego etc. just screwing around in general and enjoying
myself and significant other. being as worthless as possible, other than
tending to the boat etc.

anyway, going to fly to lax in a couple three weeks and go hit some marinas
and get a little better idea of what im looking at and what i think my
requirements will be. should be fun and informative. get out of the heat for
a couple days. while i think a coastal boat may suffice, i also want one
stout enough to cruise in if the feeling grabs me.

thanks again to all for the advice. it is most appreciated. best regards,
j.d.
"Gordon Wedman" wrote in message
news:NFq%c.155425$X12.69348@edtnps84...



--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

Hi jds
If you are just starting out and will not often have crew you probably don't
want a boat much over 30 feet. Dan's idea of starting small and working up
is a good one except that you may find it difficult to live comfortably on
some of these smaller boats. Something like a Pearson 28, C&C 29, Catalina
30 might fit the bill. I think these are reasonably easy to sell at a later
date. You wouldn't want to take one of these to Hawaii but could harbour
hop up the coast. If you are going to do a lot of singlehanding a boat with
roller furling and an autopilot will make this a lot easier. I don't really
agree with Dan about starting on a dingy. In my opinion, capsizing and
being dumped into cold water is not an integral part of sailing. It may
turn you off and it most likely will not interest your girlfriend. I
basically learned to sail on J24s and I think these are sensitive enough. I
wouldn't recommend anything but a keelboat to a newcomer. I would recommend
taking a couple of ASA courses in your home area. You will learn much
faster than if you try on your own and you might find some crewmates. Take
your girlfriend along. If you are presently compatible in everything, but
sailing is a question mark, its probably a lot easier to get her into
sailing than to start all over again with someone else.
Good luck and remember, its supposed to be fun.

"jds" wrote in message
news:35N%c.16498$aW5.15058@fed1read07...
hi gordon, and thanks for the reply. as far as sailing experience, i have
none. have been on a few , but was never driving the boat, just riding. i
plan on taking some lessons and sail around in the bay for a while untill
i
am comfortable enough with my skills to go out of the breakwater. im not
on
any particular schedule, so time frame doesnt really matter.

i wont have any experienced crew. im ready to make the move, but not sure
if
my present girl friend is or not. if she does, fine , if she doesnt, ill
find one who is. i wont be going off on any long trips alone. i will be
doing a lot of single hand sailing. if the weather is good, and i want to
go
out and practice a bit, im not going to wait for somebody to decide if
they
want to go along or not. im going.

i think most of my sailing will no doubt be coastal, with the occasional
trip to oregon, possibly alaska, possibly hawaii. more often to mexico, or
santa barbara, san diego etc. just screwing around in general and enjoying
myself and significant other. being as worthless as possible, other than
tending to the boat etc.

anyway, going to fly to lax in a couple three weeks and go hit some
marinas
and get a little better idea of what im looking at and what i think my
requirements will be. should be fun and informative. get out of the heat
for
a couple days. while i think a coastal boat may suffice, i also want one
stout enough to cruise in if the feeling grabs me.

thanks again to all for the advice. it is most appreciated. best regards,
j.d.
"Gordon Wedman" wrote in message
news:NFq%c.155425$X12.69348@edtnps84...

great minds must truly think alike. thanks again dan, gordon. i have indeed
been thinking of a smaller boat. went to the lake the other day and looked
at an islander 28. nice boat, but too short. cant stand up in it. maybe some
of the others will have more headroom. im 6'2 in my socks. that said, very
sound advice from both and it truly is much appreciated. as i said
previously, im going to socal within a mont. probably 2 to 3 weeks and will
spend a couple of days looking at a lot of them. will take a digital camera
and a large chip and just have a good look. thanks again fellas and best
regards, j.d.

Coming late to this party...

JDS, search for threads originated by me starting about two years ago. Most
of them have lots of applicability to your situation.

I'm 6-4. Tall is a *VERY* large challenge if you're going to live aboard.
Like you, we wanted to stay small. If you want not to hit your head, it
will be very difficult to accomplish in a small boat. One which might work
for you is a Beneteau 321 or the like in that line; we very much liked one
of those in the first part of our search in the Virgins. What we didn't
like was as pointed out about this marque - not enough storage. Beneteaus
are roundly laughed at in the "serious cruiser" world, but somehow they seem
to be the huge majority of what's used in the Caribbean charter trade, and
they're routinely sailed to and from there and the east coast, so they must
have something going for them. For us, there's a variety of reasons we
didn't seriously look at them, even when we doubled our budget and
space/volume parameters (mentioned in earlier portions of this thread), but
one might be right for you.

We had to look for a very long time to meet our needs. With your couple of
inches less, it might not be quite as difficult. After looking at all the
atlases of boats (Sherwood, Mauch, etc.) to try to get a feel for layouts
and heights/drafts/various ratios, we (well, mostly I) reviewed over 3000
internet listings (primarily through YachtWorld or its sister Boats.com),
selecting over 300 candidates, and actually getting aboard right at 200,
videoing and shooting hours and gigabytes worth of digidata, to get to our
eventual type (make, model) preference. From there we really bore down, and
had our boat bought (after a failed mechanical and standard survey/trial on
our first successful offer), very quickly.

We had a slight advantage on you - I'd done a lot of sailing/cruising
earlier in my life, and Lydia'd grown up on a Channel Island which required
boats if you wanted to go anywhere - so we knew what to expect of the water
and boat life. It remained only to go on a leg of a circumnav with my
ex-father-in-law for her to be fully hooked; our search began in earnest at
that point - to that point, we'd only been talking about it for 4-5 years,
always knowing that we'd have to do the actuality first before committing to
it. Our trail led us to that first leg, then two bareboats on the smallest
and oldest boats we could find, in the nastiest conditions we could
generate, in order to simulate our likely home. Since she was still hooked,
we started the buying process. See above for synopsis :{)) [handlebars and
full beard, tm] Old-timers here can tell you it (our search) was a very
exhaustive process.

Others have said to get on a lot of boats. I agree with that wholeheartedly.
One other usual recommendation I've not yet seen is to haunt the docks and
crew for anyone who needs it. Someone's always looking for crew; it would
be an easy way to get a lot of sailing experience quickly and free, too.
Along the way you might find just the boat you wanted, but the bigger part
is to get lots of sailing under your hands and feet. I agree with the
recommendation to take your girlfriend with you. Might as well find out
what she's made of now, rather than after you've bought the boat...

It's going to be an exciting time, and perhaps grueling, too, as you go
about your search. Please keep us posted on your progress.

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Apologies if this appears twice - I didn't see it from the first reply:

great minds must truly think alike. thanks again dan, gordon. i have
indeed
been thinking of a smaller boat. went to the lake the other day and looked
at an islander 28. nice boat, but too short. cant stand up in it. maybe
some
of the others will have more headroom. im 6'2 in my socks. that said, very
sound advice from both and it truly is much appreciated. as i said
previously, im going to socal within a mont. probably 2 to 3 weeks and
will
spend a couple of days looking at a lot of them. will take a digital
camera
and a large chip and just have a good look. thanks again fellas and best
regards, j.d.


Coming late to this party...

JDS, search for threads originated by me starting about two years ago. Most
of them have lots of applicability to your situation.

I'm 6-4. Tall is a *VERY* large challenge if you're going to live aboard.
Like you, we wanted to stay small. If you want not to hit your head, it
will be very difficult to accomplish in a small boat. One which might work
for you is a Beneteau 321 or the like in that line; we very much liked one
of those in the first part of our search in the Virgins. What we didn't
like was as pointed out about this marque - not enough storage. Beneteaus
are roundly laughed at in the "serious cruiser" world, but somehow they seem
to be the huge majority of what's used in the Caribbean charter trade, and
they're routinely sailed to and from there and the east coast, so they must
have something going for them. For us, there's a variety of reasons we
didn't seriously look at them, even when we doubled our budget and
space/volume parameters (mentioned in earlier portions of this thread), but
one might be right for you.

We had to look for a very long time to meet our needs. With your couple of
inches less, it might not be quite as difficult. After looking at all the
atlases of boats (Sherwood, Mauch, etc.) to try to get a feel for layouts
and heights/drafts/various ratios, we (well, mostly I) reviewed over 3000
internet listings (primarily through YachtWorld or its sister Boats.com),
selecting over 300 candidates, and actually getting aboard right at 200,
videoing and shooting hours and gigabytes worth of digidata, to get to our
eventual type (make, model) preference. From there we really bore down, and
had our boat bought (after a failed mechanical and standard survey/trial on
our first successful offer), very quickly.

We had a slight advantage on you - I'd done a lot of sailing/cruising
earlier in my life, and Lydia'd grown up on a Channel Island which required
boats if you wanted to go anywhere - so we knew what to expect of the water
and boat life. It remained only to go on a leg of a circumnav with my
ex-father-in-law for her to be fully hooked; our search began in earnest at
that point - to that point, we'd only been talking about it for 4-5 years,
always knowing that we'd have to do the actuality first before committing to
it. Our trail led us to that first leg, then two bareboats on the smallest
and oldest boats we could find, in the nastiest conditions we could
generate, in order to simulate our likely home. Since she was still hooked,
we started the buying process. See above for synopsis :{)) [handlebars and
full beard, tm] Old-timers here can tell you it (our search) was a very
exhaustive process.

Others have said to get on a lot of boats. I agree with that wholeheartedly.
One other usual recommendation I've not yet seen is to haunt the docks and
crew for anyone who needs it. Someone's always looking for crew; it would
be an easy way to get a lot of sailing experience quickly and free, too.
Along the way you might find just the boat you wanted, but the bigger part
is to get lots of sailing under your hands and feet. I agree with the
recommendation to take your girlfriend with you. Might as well find out
what she's made of now, rather than after you've bought the boat...

It's going to be an exciting time, and perhaps grueling, too, as you go
about your search. Please keep us posted on your progress.

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

thanks skip. checked out your website. very nicely done, VERY nice vessel!!.

on another note, the sailing gods may very well be smiling on me!!. seems
one of the local yacht clubs is giving a free 2 day sailing course if you
join the club. called the guy, still no answer back , on how much it costs
to join. what would be a fair price for a 2 day lesson??

another possibly good thing. i was looking in the paper this morning, and a
guy has a gulf star 23 for sale with trailer. has 3 sails, sleeps 2, i guess
for overnighting for $1800 bux. have not seen the boat, so dont know what
shape it is in. but for the money, if i can learn to sail it without killing
myself, if i had to give it away after it served its purpose, it may well be
worth it. after reading dan and gordons advice, i think this may be a good
idea.

another question. is sailing sailing?? i would be in lake mead, nevada.
pretty big lake, but not by any means an ocean. can get very windy sometimes
though. is sailing in fresh water that much different from sailing on salt
water?? are the skill learned transferable, so to speak?? i must admit, im
getting excited about the prospect. much more convenient to drive 20 miles
to go sailing than 300. more time on the water, etc. and at any rate, would
give me at least some experience when looking for a larger boat.

would really appreciate your input on this fellas. thanks again and best
regards. j.d.

J.D.,
In some ways, lake sailing is harder than ocean or bay sailing. I don't
know about Lake Mead, but as a kid I did a lot of lake sailing on
smaller lakes and the winds on a lake tend to be far less consistent and
predictable. The can quickly change in both strength and direction.
This is not a bad thing and you'll get lots of practice trimming the
sails, thus learn even quicker.

Since I'm on the topic of the differences between lake, bay and ocean
sailing, bay sailing tends to have more consistent and predictable
winds, and you also get to deal with tides and currents. Depending on
the bay, you may also get to practice dodging huge tanker, freighters
and other comercial traffic. Ocean sailing has the most consistent and
predictble of winds, insignificant currents and less traffic, but you
get to deal with swells and waves.

Manmade lakes also tend to have very steep banks. Some of them even
also have old stumps down there. This can make anchoring difficult.
If, like one near here, there are also stumps, it ican also be a good
way to loose anchors.

I'm unfamiliar with the Gulf Star 23 (and Google came up empty on it),
but the size and cost is certainly right.

When I decided to get back into sailing, I bought a 25' trailerable
(http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/OurBoats.html) and this was the boat
I introduced my family to sailing with. It got 2 out of 3 of them
hooked on sailing (my daughter never did take to the sport). My wife
and son learned the basics of sailing and seamanship on that boat,
initially on fresh water lakes, then the SF Bay and short trips out the
gate. In a lot of ways, sailing that boat on SF Bay was a lot tricker
than sailing the larger boats. On summer afternoons, 20-25 knot winds
in "The Slot" are pretty common. These winds are no big deal on the
Tayana, but if you went out in them with all sail up in the MacGregor,
they would over-power you in a heartbeat. Suffice ti to say, we got a
lot of practice reef the main and changng jibs. The swing keel also
made it trivial to unstick it when we ran aground (I like to say that we
learned to sail the bay by the Braille method - an exageration, but not
an outrageous one).

Good luck - Dan

jds wrote:
thanks skip. checked out your website. very nicely done, VERY nice vessel!!.

on another note, the sailing gods may very well be smiling on me!!. seems
one of the local yacht clubs is giving a free 2 day sailing course if you
join the club. called the guy, still no answer back , on how much it costs
to join. what would be a fair price for a 2 day lesson??

another possibly good thing. i was looking in the paper this morning, and a
guy has a gulf star 23 for sale with trailer. has 3 sails, sleeps 2, i guess
for overnighting for $1800 bux. have not seen the boat, so dont know what
shape it is in. but for the money, if i can learn to sail it without killing
myself, if i had to give it away after it served its purpose, it may well be
worth it. after reading dan and gordons advice, i think this may be a good
idea.

another question. is sailing sailing?? i would be in lake mead, nevada.
pretty big lake, but not by any means an ocean. can get very windy sometimes
though. is sailing in fresh water that much different from sailing on salt
water?? are the skill learned transferable, so to speak?? i must admit, im
getting excited about the prospect. much more convenient to drive 20 miles
to go sailing than 300. more time on the water, etc. and at any rate, would
give me at least some experience when looking for a larger boat.

would really appreciate your input on this fellas. thanks again and best
regards. j.d.



--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

thanks again dan. its a gulf coast, not gulf star.thats what happens when
you get older. mind does strange things. my mistake.

anyway, i went to look at this "boat". doesnt look like its seen water in a
while. all the ropes are dry rotted or half worn out. cable seems ok. has
about a 4 foot long crack on the starboard side where the deck glues to the
hull. not broken all the way through, but a pretty good crack. in the
overall grand scheme of things, not too hard to repair. have been in the
auto body biz for 30 some odd years, have patched many a plastic car. hell i
own 2 of em. inside looks like someone threw a couple grenades in it. some
cracks in there too. all the cushions are shot, not really a big deal, cuz i
dont think anyone over 3 1/2 feet tall could get themselves below anyway.
does have a hanging locker. to what point i have no clue. sails are all
mildewed. doesnt look like they are rotted, very light sail material, guess
thats all you need for this thing. doesnt look too heavy. looks like one of
em is a spinnaker. . looks like everything is there. mast , boom etc. have
no clue how to rig it, either does the guy thats selling it. could probably
figure that out though. seems hes selling it for a friend that moved out of
state and is going to send him the money when/if it sells. mast has a dent
in it, fairly good sized one, also mast looks a little bent. winches work.
the wood on top of the cabin, hand holds i would assume, are all weather
cracked and havnt seen varnish in , at the very least, this century. all in
all , the best thing about the whole package , is the tires on the trailer
look pretty good.

if it holds water out, looks like the perfect new guy boat. if i ground it,
it would take a pretty good eye to determine where the new damage was. if i
sink it , i would be doing the sailing world a tremendous favor. if it holds
together long enough to teach me how to sail, would be doing me a tremendous
favor. so i need to sleep on it for a couple days and shoot the guy an
offer. 1800 is completely out of the question. $18 is closer to the mark,
but more likely than not, unacceptable to the present owner. think ill offer
him 800 bux and see what he says. all he can do is laugh at me. that will
make us even , as i had a pretty good laugh when i saw this tub.

on the plus side. i think a couple 3 weekends may do wonders for it. get in
there with a lot of soap and water to clean up the interior. wash the
cushion covers, maybe some new foam. have a friend that does auto
upholstery. but then again , why bother. function over form so to speak. no
ones going to be sitting on them anyway. clean the sails up. dont look too
big. can probably go to a laundramat and throw them in a washing machine. is
that ok to do?? if not , hose them out good and proper. another customer of
mine sells power boats and accessories. can get new rope at a fair price
from him. have some fibreglas. resin and cloth. could do the patch work in a
day or so. spot in some paint, maybe varnish the wood. pick up a cheap
outboard to get me out far enough to raise the sails, and off i go. if i can
pick it up for a grand, ill probably have 15 to 18 in it by the time its
ready for water, but thats acceptable to me. education costs money. could
probaly get a grand for it after im through with it, so not too bad. will be
sure to get a very good life jacket and waterproof my cell phone. anyway. if
it works out it should entertain the guys at the marina watching me learn
how to sail it. i will most likely be quite a sight to see for a while.
still havnt heard back from the guy about the sailing lessons. hes probaly
out sailing , been a very nice weekend here. high 90s and a little breezy.

so.....what do you think?? would like to hear what you guys think on this.

ps. just talked to the guy thats selling it. told him what i thought, he
suggested an 800 dollar offer to the owner. so we shall see. guess hes left
town permanantly and is paying 50 bux a month storage on it. seems several
people have called and looked at it. no offers thus far. as always, any
input much appreciated. best regards, j.d.

In article mYK0d.21858$aW5.21670@fed1read07,
"jds" wrote:

thanks skip. checked out your website. very nicely done, VERY nice vessel!!.

on another note, the sailing gods may very well be smiling on me!!. seems
one of the local yacht clubs is giving a free 2 day sailing course if you
join the club. called the guy, still no answer back , on how much it costs
to join. what would be a fair price for a 2 day lesson??

Nothing to add to the other posts *except* that volunteering to crew for
races will give you the best lessons, particularly on a 2-person dinghy:
One-on-one instruction, constantly. Right or wrong, you know
immediately. You might or might not have to join the club to get those
lessons as I don't know a racing fleet that wasn't looking for willing
vic^h^h^h volunteers.

To learn how to *sail* on your own, get (or borrow or rent) a little
dink and race in the single-handed one-design fleet(s). Nothing teaches
sail and boat handling better; the after-race discussions are incredible
learning tools.

Whatever you do, sail early and often.

I forget the beginning of the thread, but if you have a significant
other, first and always make sure they are having fun. If that means
never letting the boat heel more than 5 degrees, so be it.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/