great minds must truly think alike. thanks again dan, gordon. i have indeed
been thinking of a smaller boat. went to the lake the other day and looked
at an islander 28. nice boat, but too short. cant stand up in it. maybe some
of the others will have more headroom. im 6'2 in my socks. that said, very
sound advice from both and it truly is much appreciated. as i said
previously, im going to socal within a mont. probably 2 to 3 weeks and will
spend a couple of days looking at a lot of them. will take a digital camera
and a large chip and just have a good look. thanks again fellas and best
regards, j.d.

Coming late to this party...

JDS, search for threads originated by me starting about two years ago. Most
of them have lots of applicability to your situation.

I'm 6-4. Tall is a *VERY* large challenge if you're going to live aboard.
Like you, we wanted to stay small. If you want not to hit your head, it
will be very difficult to accomplish in a small boat. One which might work
for you is a Beneteau 321 or the like in that line; we very much liked one
of those in the first part of our search in the Virgins. What we didn't
like was as pointed out about this marque - not enough storage. Beneteaus
are roundly laughed at in the "serious cruiser" world, but somehow they seem
to be the huge majority of what's used in the Caribbean charter trade, and
they're routinely sailed to and from there and the east coast, so they must
have something going for them. For us, there's a variety of reasons we
didn't seriously look at them, even when we doubled our budget and
space/volume parameters (mentioned in earlier portions of this thread), but
one might be right for you.

We had to look for a very long time to meet our needs. With your couple of
inches less, it might not be quite as difficult. After looking at all the
atlases of boats (Sherwood, Mauch, etc.) to try to get a feel for layouts
and heights/drafts/various ratios, we (well, mostly I) reviewed over 3000
internet listings (primarily through YachtWorld or its sister Boats.com),
selecting over 300 candidates, and actually getting aboard right at 200,
videoing and shooting hours and gigabytes worth of digidata, to get to our
eventual type (make, model) preference. From there we really bore down, and
had our boat bought (after a failed mechanical and standard survey/trial on
our first successful offer), very quickly.

We had a slight advantage on you - I'd done a lot of sailing/cruising
earlier in my life, and Lydia'd grown up on a Channel Island which required
boats if you wanted to go anywhere - so we knew what to expect of the water
and boat life. It remained only to go on a leg of a circumnav with my
ex-father-in-law for her to be fully hooked; our search began in earnest at
that point - to that point, we'd only been talking about it for 4-5 years,
always knowing that we'd have to do the actuality first before committing to
it. Our trail led us to that first leg, then two bareboats on the smallest
and oldest boats we could find, in the nastiest conditions we could
generate, in order to simulate our likely home. Since she was still hooked,
we started the buying process. See above for synopsis :{)) [handlebars and
full beard, tm] Old-timers here can tell you it (our search) was a very
exhaustive process.

Others have said to get on a lot of boats. I agree with that wholeheartedly.
One other usual recommendation I've not yet seen is to haunt the docks and
crew for anyone who needs it. Someone's always looking for crew; it would
be an easy way to get a lot of sailing experience quickly and free, too.
Along the way you might find just the boat you wanted, but the bigger part
is to get lots of sailing under your hands and feet. I agree with the
recommendation to take your girlfriend with you. Might as well find out
what she's made of now, rather than after you've bought the boat...

It's going to be an exciting time, and perhaps grueling, too, as you go
about your search. Please keep us posted on your progress.

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Apologies if this appears twice - I didn't see it from the first reply:

great minds must truly think alike. thanks again dan, gordon. i have
indeed
been thinking of a smaller boat. went to the lake the other day and looked
at an islander 28. nice boat, but too short. cant stand up in it. maybe
some
of the others will have more headroom. im 6'2 in my socks. that said, very
sound advice from both and it truly is much appreciated. as i said
previously, im going to socal within a mont. probably 2 to 3 weeks and
will
spend a couple of days looking at a lot of them. will take a digital
camera
and a large chip and just have a good look. thanks again fellas and best
regards, j.d.


Coming late to this party...

JDS, search for threads originated by me starting about two years ago. Most
of them have lots of applicability to your situation.

I'm 6-4. Tall is a *VERY* large challenge if you're going to live aboard.
Like you, we wanted to stay small. If you want not to hit your head, it
will be very difficult to accomplish in a small boat. One which might work
for you is a Beneteau 321 or the like in that line; we very much liked one
of those in the first part of our search in the Virgins. What we didn't
like was as pointed out about this marque - not enough storage. Beneteaus
are roundly laughed at in the "serious cruiser" world, but somehow they seem
to be the huge majority of what's used in the Caribbean charter trade, and
they're routinely sailed to and from there and the east coast, so they must
have something going for them. For us, there's a variety of reasons we
didn't seriously look at them, even when we doubled our budget and
space/volume parameters (mentioned in earlier portions of this thread), but
one might be right for you.

We had to look for a very long time to meet our needs. With your couple of
inches less, it might not be quite as difficult. After looking at all the
atlases of boats (Sherwood, Mauch, etc.) to try to get a feel for layouts
and heights/drafts/various ratios, we (well, mostly I) reviewed over 3000
internet listings (primarily through YachtWorld or its sister Boats.com),
selecting over 300 candidates, and actually getting aboard right at 200,
videoing and shooting hours and gigabytes worth of digidata, to get to our
eventual type (make, model) preference. From there we really bore down, and
had our boat bought (after a failed mechanical and standard survey/trial on
our first successful offer), very quickly.

We had a slight advantage on you - I'd done a lot of sailing/cruising
earlier in my life, and Lydia'd grown up on a Channel Island which required
boats if you wanted to go anywhere - so we knew what to expect of the water
and boat life. It remained only to go on a leg of a circumnav with my
ex-father-in-law for her to be fully hooked; our search began in earnest at
that point - to that point, we'd only been talking about it for 4-5 years,
always knowing that we'd have to do the actuality first before committing to
it. Our trail led us to that first leg, then two bareboats on the smallest
and oldest boats we could find, in the nastiest conditions we could
generate, in order to simulate our likely home. Since she was still hooked,
we started the buying process. See above for synopsis :{)) [handlebars and
full beard, tm] Old-timers here can tell you it (our search) was a very
exhaustive process.

Others have said to get on a lot of boats. I agree with that wholeheartedly.
One other usual recommendation I've not yet seen is to haunt the docks and
crew for anyone who needs it. Someone's always looking for crew; it would
be an easy way to get a lot of sailing experience quickly and free, too.
Along the way you might find just the boat you wanted, but the bigger part
is to get lots of sailing under your hands and feet. I agree with the
recommendation to take your girlfriend with you. Might as well find out
what she's made of now, rather than after you've bought the boat...

It's going to be an exciting time, and perhaps grueling, too, as you go
about your search. Please keep us posted on your progress.

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

thanks skip. checked out your website. very nicely done, VERY nice vessel!!.

on another note, the sailing gods may very well be smiling on me!!. seems
one of the local yacht clubs is giving a free 2 day sailing course if you
join the club. called the guy, still no answer back , on how much it costs
to join. what would be a fair price for a 2 day lesson??

another possibly good thing. i was looking in the paper this morning, and a
guy has a gulf star 23 for sale with trailer. has 3 sails, sleeps 2, i guess
for overnighting for $1800 bux. have not seen the boat, so dont know what
shape it is in. but for the money, if i can learn to sail it without killing
myself, if i had to give it away after it served its purpose, it may well be
worth it. after reading dan and gordons advice, i think this may be a good
idea.

another question. is sailing sailing?? i would be in lake mead, nevada.
pretty big lake, but not by any means an ocean. can get very windy sometimes
though. is sailing in fresh water that much different from sailing on salt
water?? are the skill learned transferable, so to speak?? i must admit, im
getting excited about the prospect. much more convenient to drive 20 miles
to go sailing than 300. more time on the water, etc. and at any rate, would
give me at least some experience when looking for a larger boat.

would really appreciate your input on this fellas. thanks again and best
regards. j.d.

J.D.,
In some ways, lake sailing is harder than ocean or bay sailing. I don't
know about Lake Mead, but as a kid I did a lot of lake sailing on
smaller lakes and the winds on a lake tend to be far less consistent and
predictable. The can quickly change in both strength and direction.
This is not a bad thing and you'll get lots of practice trimming the
sails, thus learn even quicker.

Since I'm on the topic of the differences between lake, bay and ocean
sailing, bay sailing tends to have more consistent and predictable
winds, and you also get to deal with tides and currents. Depending on
the bay, you may also get to practice dodging huge tanker, freighters
and other comercial traffic. Ocean sailing has the most consistent and
predictble of winds, insignificant currents and less traffic, but you
get to deal with swells and waves.

Manmade lakes also tend to have very steep banks. Some of them even
also have old stumps down there. This can make anchoring difficult.
If, like one near here, there are also stumps, it ican also be a good
way to loose anchors.

I'm unfamiliar with the Gulf Star 23 (and Google came up empty on it),
but the size and cost is certainly right.

When I decided to get back into sailing, I bought a 25' trailerable
(http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/OurBoats.html) and this was the boat
I introduced my family to sailing with. It got 2 out of 3 of them
hooked on sailing (my daughter never did take to the sport). My wife
and son learned the basics of sailing and seamanship on that boat,
initially on fresh water lakes, then the SF Bay and short trips out the
gate. In a lot of ways, sailing that boat on SF Bay was a lot tricker
than sailing the larger boats. On summer afternoons, 20-25 knot winds
in "The Slot" are pretty common. These winds are no big deal on the
Tayana, but if you went out in them with all sail up in the MacGregor,
they would over-power you in a heartbeat. Suffice ti to say, we got a
lot of practice reef the main and changng jibs. The swing keel also
made it trivial to unstick it when we ran aground (I like to say that we
learned to sail the bay by the Braille method - an exageration, but not
an outrageous one).

Good luck - Dan

jds wrote:
thanks skip. checked out your website. very nicely done, VERY nice vessel!!.

on another note, the sailing gods may very well be smiling on me!!. seems
one of the local yacht clubs is giving a free 2 day sailing course if you
join the club. called the guy, still no answer back , on how much it costs
to join. what would be a fair price for a 2 day lesson??

another possibly good thing. i was looking in the paper this morning, and a
guy has a gulf star 23 for sale with trailer. has 3 sails, sleeps 2, i guess
for overnighting for $1800 bux. have not seen the boat, so dont know what
shape it is in. but for the money, if i can learn to sail it without killing
myself, if i had to give it away after it served its purpose, it may well be
worth it. after reading dan and gordons advice, i think this may be a good
idea.

another question. is sailing sailing?? i would be in lake mead, nevada.
pretty big lake, but not by any means an ocean. can get very windy sometimes
though. is sailing in fresh water that much different from sailing on salt
water?? are the skill learned transferable, so to speak?? i must admit, im
getting excited about the prospect. much more convenient to drive 20 miles
to go sailing than 300. more time on the water, etc. and at any rate, would
give me at least some experience when looking for a larger boat.

would really appreciate your input on this fellas. thanks again and best
regards. j.d.



--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

thanks again dan. its a gulf coast, not gulf star.thats what happens when
you get older. mind does strange things. my mistake.

anyway, i went to look at this "boat". doesnt look like its seen water in a
while. all the ropes are dry rotted or half worn out. cable seems ok. has
about a 4 foot long crack on the starboard side where the deck glues to the
hull. not broken all the way through, but a pretty good crack. in the
overall grand scheme of things, not too hard to repair. have been in the
auto body biz for 30 some odd years, have patched many a plastic car. hell i
own 2 of em. inside looks like someone threw a couple grenades in it. some
cracks in there too. all the cushions are shot, not really a big deal, cuz i
dont think anyone over 3 1/2 feet tall could get themselves below anyway.
does have a hanging locker. to what point i have no clue. sails are all
mildewed. doesnt look like they are rotted, very light sail material, guess
thats all you need for this thing. doesnt look too heavy. looks like one of
em is a spinnaker. . looks like everything is there. mast , boom etc. have
no clue how to rig it, either does the guy thats selling it. could probably
figure that out though. seems hes selling it for a friend that moved out of
state and is going to send him the money when/if it sells. mast has a dent
in it, fairly good sized one, also mast looks a little bent. winches work.
the wood on top of the cabin, hand holds i would assume, are all weather
cracked and havnt seen varnish in , at the very least, this century. all in
all , the best thing about the whole package , is the tires on the trailer
look pretty good.

if it holds water out, looks like the perfect new guy boat. if i ground it,
it would take a pretty good eye to determine where the new damage was. if i
sink it , i would be doing the sailing world a tremendous favor. if it holds
together long enough to teach me how to sail, would be doing me a tremendous
favor. so i need to sleep on it for a couple days and shoot the guy an
offer. 1800 is completely out of the question. $18 is closer to the mark,
but more likely than not, unacceptable to the present owner. think ill offer
him 800 bux and see what he says. all he can do is laugh at me. that will
make us even , as i had a pretty good laugh when i saw this tub.

on the plus side. i think a couple 3 weekends may do wonders for it. get in
there with a lot of soap and water to clean up the interior. wash the
cushion covers, maybe some new foam. have a friend that does auto
upholstery. but then again , why bother. function over form so to speak. no
ones going to be sitting on them anyway. clean the sails up. dont look too
big. can probably go to a laundramat and throw them in a washing machine. is
that ok to do?? if not , hose them out good and proper. another customer of
mine sells power boats and accessories. can get new rope at a fair price
from him. have some fibreglas. resin and cloth. could do the patch work in a
day or so. spot in some paint, maybe varnish the wood. pick up a cheap
outboard to get me out far enough to raise the sails, and off i go. if i can
pick it up for a grand, ill probably have 15 to 18 in it by the time its
ready for water, but thats acceptable to me. education costs money. could
probaly get a grand for it after im through with it, so not too bad. will be
sure to get a very good life jacket and waterproof my cell phone. anyway. if
it works out it should entertain the guys at the marina watching me learn
how to sail it. i will most likely be quite a sight to see for a while.
still havnt heard back from the guy about the sailing lessons. hes probaly
out sailing , been a very nice weekend here. high 90s and a little breezy.

so.....what do you think?? would like to hear what you guys think on this.

ps. just talked to the guy thats selling it. told him what i thought, he
suggested an 800 dollar offer to the owner. so we shall see. guess hes left
town permanantly and is paying 50 bux a month storage on it. seems several
people have called and looked at it. no offers thus far. as always, any
input much appreciated. best regards, j.d.

J.D,
I like your attitude! This is not a boat you're likely to fall in love
with, it's a tool to learn with and have some fun with. From your
description, the only thing that concerns me is the dent you describe in
the mast ("mast has a dent
in it, fairly good sized one, also mast looks a little bent"). This
is going to be a weak spot and even on a 22' boat, there can be some
prtty good compression loads on the mast. This may not be a deal
breaker, but loosing your mast can spoil a perfectly good day. Where is
the bend and how severe is it? The rest of it sounds like a little elbow
grease can bring it back to being functional.

The cost of all new running rigging on a 22' boat isn't significant,
even if you have to pay full retail. I wouldn't put the sails into a
washing machine if I were you. Lay em' out on a lawn and use a brush
and a weak bleach solution to get rid of the mildew.

Funny you sould mention the lack of varnish. We're in the middle of
redoing all out varnish. Here's a photo I took about an hour ago
showing the work I did today. We decided to use a product called Honey
Teak instead of varnish this time. It's a two part acrylic and
expensive compared to varnish, but you can put all the coats on in a
single day and it's supposed to hold up better.

i dont think anyone over 3 1/2 feet tall could get themselves below...
Yeah, 22' boats just don't have much volume to work with. That 25' one
we had was a lot better as especially in this size range, every foot
makes a big difference. All four of us could sleep below (my kids were
small back then), but when we were all below, if anyone was moving
around, everyone else was not only aware of it, but had to make
allowances for it.

Does the boat have any kind of an outboard that comes with it? You'll
pretty much need one. It can be small (3.4 - 5 hp), but you'll probably
need a long shaft one.




jds wrote:
thanks again dan. its a gulf coast, not gulf star.thats what happens when
you get older. mind does strange things. my mistake.

anyway, i went to look at this "boat". doesnt look like its seen water in a
while. all the ropes are dry rotted or half worn out. cable seems ok. has
about a 4 foot long crack on the starboard side where the deck glues to the
hull. not broken all the way through, but a pretty good crack. in the
overall grand scheme of things, not too hard to repair. have been in the
auto body biz for 30 some odd years, have patched many a plastic car. hell i
own 2 of em. inside looks like someone threw a couple grenades in it. some
cracks in there too. all the cushions are shot, not really a big deal, cuz i
dont think anyone over 3 1/2 feet tall could get themselves below anyway.
does have a hanging locker. to what point i have no clue. sails are all
mildewed. doesnt look like they are rotted, very light sail material, guess
thats all you need for this thing. doesnt look too heavy. looks like one of
em is a spinnaker. . looks like everything is there. mast , boom etc. have
no clue how to rig it, either does the guy thats selling it. could probably
figure that out though. seems hes selling it for a friend that moved out of
state and is going to send him the money when/if it sells. mast has a dent
in it, fairly good sized one, also mast looks a little bent. winches work.
the wood on top of the cabin, hand holds i would assume, are all weather
cracked and havnt seen varnish in , at the very least, this century. all in
all , the best thing about the whole package , is the tires on the trailer
look pretty good.

if it holds water out, looks like the perfect new guy boat. if i ground it,
it would take a pretty good eye to determine where the new damage was. if i
sink it , i would be doing the sailing world a tremendous favor. if it holds
together long enough to teach me how to sail, would be doing me a tremendous
favor. so i need to sleep on it for a couple days and shoot the guy an
offer. 1800 is completely out of the question. $18 is closer to the mark,
but more likely than not, unacceptable to the present owner. think ill offer
him 800 bux and see what he says. all he can do is laugh at me. that will
make us even , as i had a pretty good laugh when i saw this tub.

on the plus side. i think a couple 3 weekends may do wonders for it. get in
there with a lot of soap and water to clean up the interior. wash the
cushion covers, maybe some new foam. have a friend that does auto
upholstery. but then again , why bother. function over form so to speak. no
ones going to be sitting on them anyway. clean the sails up. dont look too
big. can probably go to a laundramat and throw them in a washing machine. is
that ok to do?? if not , hose them out good and proper. another customer of
mine sells power boats and accessories. can get new rope at a fair price
from him. have some fibreglas. resin and cloth. could do the patch work in a
day or so. spot in some paint, maybe varnish the wood. pick up a cheap
outboard to get me out far enough to raise the sails, and off i go. if i can
pick it up for a grand, ill probably have 15 to 18 in it by the time its
ready for water, but thats acceptable to me. education costs money. could
probaly get a grand for it after im through with it, so not too bad. will be
sure to get a very good life jacket and waterproof my cell phone. anyway. if
it works out it should entertain the guys at the marina watching me learn
how to sail it. i will most likely be quite a sight to see for a while.
still havnt heard back from the guy about the sailing lessons. hes probaly
out sailing , been a very nice weekend here. high 90s and a little breezy.

so.....what do you think?? would like to hear what you guys think on this.

ps. just talked to the guy thats selling it. told him what i thought, he
suggested an 800 dollar offer to the owner. so we shall see. guess hes left
town permanantly and is paying 50 bux a month storage on it. seems several
people have called and looked at it. no offers thus far. as always, any
input much appreciated. best regards, j.d.



--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

In article mYK0d.21858$aW5.21670@fed1read07,
"jds" wrote:

thanks skip. checked out your website. very nicely done, VERY nice vessel!!.

on another note, the sailing gods may very well be smiling on me!!. seems
one of the local yacht clubs is giving a free 2 day sailing course if you
join the club. called the guy, still no answer back , on how much it costs
to join. what would be a fair price for a 2 day lesson??

Nothing to add to the other posts *except* that volunteering to crew for
races will give you the best lessons, particularly on a 2-person dinghy:
One-on-one instruction, constantly. Right or wrong, you know
immediately. You might or might not have to join the club to get those
lessons as I don't know a racing fleet that wasn't looking for willing
vic^h^h^h volunteers.

To learn how to *sail* on your own, get (or borrow or rent) a little
dink and race in the single-handed one-design fleet(s). Nothing teaches
sail and boat handling better; the after-race discussions are incredible
learning tools.

Whatever you do, sail early and often.

I forget the beginning of the thread, but if you have a significant
other, first and always make sure they are having fun. If that means
never letting the boat heel more than 5 degrees, so be it.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

hi dan. well the dent in the mast is maybe 3-4" long and maybe half as wide
as the mast. doesnt look like it did anything structural, but dont know.
looks like someone dropped it. the bend in the mast isnt drastic. if you
stand and look up the thing, it just isnt quite straight, maybe a 3"
difference from top to bottom. maybe by the time its rigged, you could get
the bend out. not sure. in any case, it doesnt look like it would bend in
half.

ill have to take a closer look at the dent. could be a guy could take a 2x4,
trim it down till it slid through the good part of the mast, then take a
broom handle or a small diameter piece of pipe and gently tap the block
through and get most of the dent out. have done that before on tube frames
on 4 wheelers and sand rails. works pretty good most the time.

found a place to park it. can get a slip on the lake for 86 bux a month. 40
miles up the road, but if i cant find something closer, may be better than
trailing it all the time and having to re-rig it every time i want to go
sailing. will wait and see.

been looking for a small outboard. the boat doesnt have one. this may be the
most difficult part. seems there arent too many around. havnt done a lot of
searching yet though, so im pretty sure i can find something suitable.

thats about it. the more i think about it and check on additional costs
involved, it seems pretty doable. going to call the guy back tomorrow nite
and make him an offer. so, will see. one nice thing. to park it at a marina,
you have to have 300k in liability insurance. called my agent today, 55 bux
a year. wow. wish i could do my cars for that. seems on a boat this size,
they go by horsepower. when i told him 3 to 5 , he kind of laughed and gave
me the price. good deal. trailer is covered when its attached to my car, no
worries there. foolish not to have at least liability coverage anyway.

once again dan, thank you for your input. as always, well noted and
appreciated. wish me luck. best regards, j.d.

well. im an owner. going to the bank in the morning. so , here we go. will
haul it down to my shop this weekend and start cleaning her up and do some
minor repairs. hopwe to have it on the water in less than a month. possibly
3 weeks. will take some photos and post them when i get her home. thanks for
all the input from you fellas. much appreciated. will keep you posted.
thanks again and best regards, j.d.