newby questions
 

hi all. i am currently in rersearch mode looking for a cruising sailboat.
have read some, have a lot more to read and learn. most of the web sites
and forums i have gone to seem to be primarily east coast stuff. i will be
on west coast, southern california. my plans are to cruise up and down the
coast, possibly alaska, possibly hawaii. im 57 and a few creature comforts
are more important than speed. i dont want a boat that will beat me up, and
i dont want a boat that if the wind kicks up a bit i have to fold my tent
and go home.

ok, on many forums they talk about how heavy and slow cruisers are. does
that mean you have to have heavy winds to sail in them?? i dont want to be
sitting in the marina/mooring , whatever, while a bunch of lighter boats are
out on the water. how much wind does it take to move one of these boats??
right now, im very interested in a westsail 32. i have about 50k to spend.
so far the only thing bad i have read about these boats is they are slow.
not an issue with me as long as you dont need a hurricane to get them
moving.

i have also read that all boats are a comprimise. i can understand that. are
there any good solid boats that are maybe a happy medium?? comfort that will
still sail in light winds?? we dont have a lot of heavy wind in this area,
but you never know when you may run into some. safety and strength are more
important than speed to me.

i plan on living aboard a great deal of the time. i have a house in socal i
can go to if i want to, but i let my mother and sister live there, and a
little bit of both of them is enough for me for several weeks/months/years.
but can live there if i have to. point being, i want something with at least
some creature comforts. hot water, nice head with shower, and a galley thats
usable. comfortable bed.

anyway, seems like the more i read the more confused i become. some insight
from you old salts would be greatly appreciated. by the way, anyone ever
hear of a yorktown?? apparently a well made boat, but havnt seen too much
about them even on a google search. thanks for any input here. regards, j.d.

On the spectrum of light vs heavy boats, the Westsail 32 is certainly
out towards the heavy end of things. Many derisively refer to them as
the "Westsnail". On the other hand, many of them have been successively
cruised. Some friends of ours, were in New Zealand last I heard (they
started 5 years ago in N. Calif) and love their boat. My wife and I
think the ideal is out toward the ehavy end, but not quite that far out.
Our Tayana weighs in at about 22,500 lb.s (dry) and is 37' on deck
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG.

For sailing around S. Calif, light winds are not uncommon and you may
find yourself motoring more than you now anticipate in such a heavy boat.

You also speak to a desire of "a few creature comforts". While many
(including me) find the motion of a heavier boat more pleasant (and much
less tiring) than that of lighter weight ones, the bottom line is that
there's not a whole lot of room for those creature comforts in a 32'
boat. Our last boat was a Catalina 30 and we did a lot with it,
includeing taking it down to the Sea of Cortez, but we REALLY appreciate
the extra tankage, storage and living space the bigger boat brings.

You've stated a $50K budget and a desire to cross oceans (to Hawaii &
Alaska). This seems like a reasonable budget for a good quality, low
end cruising boat to me. you can certainly spend a lot more, but you
don't have to. If you're willing to limit your cruising range to San
Francisco down to Mexico, you can get by a lot cheaper ( $20K). A
quick search for Westsails on yachtworld.com shows a number of them in
the $40K - $50K range. There is even one listed in Alameda (SF Bay
area) for $27.5K. Don't forget, while you'll probably buy it for less
than the asking price, you'll also have to pay Calif. sales tax on it
and put anywhere from 10% - 30% of the initial cost into it to get it
ready.

- Dan - T minus 29 days (but whose counting?)

jds wrote:

hi all. i am currently in rersearch mode looking for a cruising sailboat.
have read some, have a lot more to read and learn. most of the web sites
and forums i have gone to seem to be primarily east coast stuff. i will be
on west coast, southern california. my plans are to cruise up and down the
coast, possibly alaska, possibly hawaii. im 57 and a few creature comforts
are more important than speed. i dont want a boat that will beat me up, and
i dont want a boat that if the wind kicks up a bit i have to fold my tent
and go home.

ok, on many forums they talk about how heavy and slow cruisers are. does
that mean you have to have heavy winds to sail in them?? i dont want to be
sitting in the marina/mooring , whatever, while a bunch of lighter boats are
out on the water. how much wind does it take to move one of these boats??
right now, im very interested in a westsail 32. i have about 50k to spend.
so far the only thing bad i have read about these boats is they are slow.
not an issue with me as long as you dont need a hurricane to get them
moving.

i have also read that all boats are a comprimise. i can understand that. are
there any good solid boats that are maybe a happy medium?? comfort that will
still sail in light winds?? we dont have a lot of heavy wind in this area,
but you never know when you may run into some. safety and strength are more
important than speed to me.

i plan on living aboard a great deal of the time. i have a house in socal i
can go to if i want to, but i let my mother and sister live there, and a
little bit of both of them is enough for me for several weeks/months/years.
but can live there if i have to. point being, i want something with at least
some creature comforts. hot water, nice head with shower, and a galley thats
usable. comfortable bed.

anyway, seems like the more i read the more confused i become. some insight
from you old salts would be greatly appreciated. by the way, anyone ever
hear of a yorktown?? apparently a well made boat, but havnt seen too much
about them even on a google search. thanks for any input here. regards, j.d.



--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

thanks for the reply dan. nice boat by the way. advice noted and
appreciated. another question: how much larger is a 37' boat than a 32'
boat? as a complete fng, 5 feet doesnt seem that much longer. how much more
living space is gained by the additional footage?

would you consider your boat medium displacement?? medium heavy??? does it
sail ok in light winds??

i dont think i want to limit myself to the bay area south as i have friends
and family in seattle and coos bay oregon. would like to visit them and the
only time i was in alaska was in an airport on the way to se asia. would
like to go there again and spend some time fishing.

50k is what i have budgeted for the boat itself, i understand there will be
additional costs. do you think i would be better off buying one already
equiped for cruising?? one that has been cruised and refitted over one i
have to fit myself?? thanks again for the advise and take god care. regards,
j.d.

oh, as a ps. i talked to a broker in socal and he said if you go to mexico
for 91 days, you dont have to pay calif sales tax. i guess if i had to (g) i
could spend some time there doing whatever. probably end up spending more
than the sales tax, but at least would get something in return. thanks
again, j.d.

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 04:57:29 -0700, "jds" wrote:
thanks for the reply dan. nice boat by the way. advice noted and
appreciated. another question: how much larger is a 37' boat than a 32'
boat? as a complete fng, 5 feet doesnt seem that much longer. how much more
living space is gained by the additional footage?

==========================================

As a general rule the size of a boat increases in proportion to the
cube of its length. In other words a 48 foot boat is about 8 times
larger than a 24 foot boat. That may seem extreme but try looking at
both a 24 and a 48 and you'll see for yourself. The rationale is that
not only does the length increase but also the depth and width. Since
a 37 foot boat is 1.15 times as long as a 32, and 1.15 cubed is 1.52,
you can infer that the 37 will have about 50% more usable space.

jds wrote:
how much larger is a 37' boat than a 32'
boat? as a complete fng, 5 feet doesnt seem that much longer. how much more
living space is gained by the additional footage?

As Wayne pointed out, volume increases as the cube of the length, but
it's even more than that because there are some areas that are
relatively fixed in size: Cockpit, galley, head, chain locker, etc.. So
the bulk of the added volume goes directly into the living and storage
areas. BTW, if you're going to be living aboard, the importance of
readily available storage (drawers and lockers) can't be stressed
enough. A major downfall just about all of the smaller boats and most
of the coastal cruisers (Hunter, Catalina, Benateau, etc.) is their lack
in this area (tankage is another).

would you consider your boat medium displacement?? medium heavy??? does it
sail ok in light winds??

I think just about everybody would consider the Tayana a heavy
displacement cruiser. It's got a pretty generous sail plan though so it
moves right along. We were pleasantly surprised at its' performance,
especially in light airs. We were expecting it to be something of a
pig. We did add an asymmetrical spinnaker for light wind sailing and
are VERY pleased with it http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/SPIN3.jpg.


i dont think i want to limit myself to the bay area south...

No reason why you should, it was just an option I threw out. You should
note however that going north from San Francisco up to Washington can be
a very rough trip. Heck, coming down is a rough one for a lot of people
and going upwind and into the waves is much worse. We also plan on
spending a season in Alaska, but will be getting there via Hawaii.


50k is what i have budgeted for the boat itself, i understand there will be
additional costs. do you think i would be better off buying one already
equiped for cruising??

In general, it's more cost effective to buy gear with the boat than
purchasing and installing it yourself. You have to put up with the PO
(Previous Owner) idiosyncrasies (I refer to my PO as "electrically
challenged" and have replaced ALL of the non-factory installed wiring
that was in the boat), but costwise it's usually a bunch cheaper.

oh, as a ps. i talked to a broker in socal and he said if you go to mexico
for 91 days, you dont have to pay calif sales tax.

I don't know the details here, but it's my understanding that this law
is in the process of changing. Be very careful here as we're talking
about thousands of dollars.

One last piece of advice. Get out and start looking at some boats.
Contact some brokers and get aboard and poke your nose into LOTS of
different boats. You'll get a feel for not only the many different
styles of boats, but they're general market value. It's a buyers market
and has been for some time, so there are a lot of boats out there and
they stay on the market for a long time. Take your time looking. If
one your interested in sells before you make an offer on it, no big
deal, There are lots more to choose from. The time to fall in love
with a boat is AFTER it's yours, not while you're trying to buy it.

Good luck - Dan

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

again, thank you for the advice and information, dan, wayne. in 2 weeks im
going to socal and spend a couple days looking at various boats. will know
more then. i live in las vegas, and although the lake we have here is quite
large, not many boats over 30 feet or so and all day sailer type craft.
o'day, etc. i have not seen a serious boat at any of the marinas. which of
course is quite natural, as that is what they are used for. one very nice
pearson. dont know how seaworthy they are but it is a very nice boat for the
lake. once again, thanks for the advice. it is appreciated and well taken.
best regards, j.d.

jds

You've got some good advice from Dan. I would agree that buying a boat that
is already outfitted as close to what you want is the best approach. You
sort of get the equipment and installation cost/work for free. I would also
agree that you need to get out and look at a lot of boats in your price
range and a little above. Have a look at some that are a bit more costly to
see what the extra dollars buy.

I think for 50k you may be bit limited in choices for heavier displacement
offshore capable cruisers, at least ones that equipped well enough and
decent enough to live aboard. I've been contemplating this for a while and
for my daydreaming I think 75 to 100k would get me a well equipped offshore-
capable long distance cruiser. I've pretty much concluded the Tayana 37
seems to give the most bang for the bucks in this class. I think if you
have a big genoa and good condition sails these boats will move OK on any
day that's worth going out on. I see on Yachtworld there is an older one in
Alameda for 49k but usually they are 75k+.

If most of your sailing will be coastal you don't really need all the
storage of an offshore boat and could get buy with something like an early
'80s Hunter 37, a Pearson 36 or C&C 38. I think you might get one for close
to 50k and they have enough storage for living aboard. I'm currently living
on my C&C 37. If you wanted to make a trip to Hawaii you do it on one of
these boats. You don't mention how much sailing experience you have or if
you would have crew?
One of these larger boats might be a bit much if you don't have experience
or experienced crew.

As Dan says, take your time to work through this and come back with
questions as they come up. The more time you take the more likely you will
be very satisfied in the end. Lastly, I think it was John Vigor who advised
"buy the boat that makes you smile when you turn around to look at her while
rowing away".......


"jds" wrote in message
news:3KPZc.785$aW5.646@fed1read07...
hi all. i am currently in rersearch mode looking for a cruising sailboat.
have read some, have a lot more to read and learn. most of the web sites
and forums i have gone to seem to be primarily east coast stuff. i will be
on west coast, southern california. my plans are to cruise up and down the
coast, possibly alaska, possibly hawaii. im 57 and a few creature comforts
are more important than speed. i dont want a boat that will beat me up,
and
i dont want a boat that if the wind kicks up a bit i have to fold my tent
and go home.

ok, on many forums they talk about how heavy and slow cruisers are. does
that mean you have to have heavy winds to sail in them?? i dont want to be
sitting in the marina/mooring , whatever, while a bunch of lighter boats
are
out on the water. how much wind does it take to move one of these boats??
right now, im very interested in a westsail 32. i have about 50k to spend.
so far the only thing bad i have read about these boats is they are slow.
not an issue with me as long as you dont need a hurricane to get them
moving.

i have also read that all boats are a comprimise. i can understand that.
are
there any good solid boats that are maybe a happy medium?? comfort that
will
still sail in light winds?? we dont have a lot of heavy wind in this area,
but you never know when you may run into some. safety and strength are
more
important than speed to me.

i plan on living aboard a great deal of the time. i have a house in socal
i
can go to if i want to, but i let my mother and sister live there, and a
little bit of both of them is enough for me for several
weeks/months/years.
but can live there if i have to. point being, i want something with at
least
some creature comforts. hot water, nice head with shower, and a galley
thats
usable. comfortable bed.

anyway, seems like the more i read the more confused i become. some
insight
from you old salts would be greatly appreciated. by the way, anyone ever
hear of a yorktown?? apparently a well made boat, but havnt seen too much
about them even on a google search. thanks for any input here. regards,
j.d.

hi gordon, and thanks for the reply. as far as sailing experience, i have
none. have been on a few , but was never driving the boat, just riding. i
plan on taking some lessons and sail around in the bay for a while untill i
am comfortable enough with my skills to go out of the breakwater. im not on
any particular schedule, so time frame doesnt really matter.

i wont have any experienced crew. im ready to make the move, but not sure if
my present girl friend is or not. if she does, fine , if she doesnt, ill
find one who is. i wont be going off on any long trips alone. i will be
doing a lot of single hand sailing. if the weather is good, and i want to go
out and practice a bit, im not going to wait for somebody to decide if they
want to go along or not. im going.

i think most of my sailing will no doubt be coastal, with the occasional
trip to oregon, possibly alaska, possibly hawaii. more often to mexico, or
santa barbara, san diego etc. just screwing around in general and enjoying
myself and significant other. being as worthless as possible, other than
tending to the boat etc.

anyway, going to fly to lax in a couple three weeks and go hit some marinas
and get a little better idea of what im looking at and what i think my
requirements will be. should be fun and informative. get out of the heat for
a couple days. while i think a coastal boat may suffice, i also want one
stout enough to cruise in if the feeling grabs me.

thanks again to all for the advice. it is most appreciated. best regards,
j.d.
"Gordon Wedman" wrote in message
news:NFq%c.155425$X12.69348@edtnps84...

j.d.,
I'm gonna jump in here with a bit of advice. Feel free to ignore it,
but based on the info you've given below, Since you state that there is
no real time frame, I'd suggest planning to do this in a couple of
steps. Get something smaller for a year or so. Say a 27'-30' coastal
cruiser. This will be more than enough for exploring anywhere from San
Diego to Santa Barbara, including the Channel Islands.

- It's cheap. Having never sailed much before, you may find that the
reality doesn't live up to the dream. Many find that it doesn't and are
then in the position of having a huge amount of capitol tied up in a
boat they detest and can't sell for months. Smaller boats sell much
faster than the larger cruisers simply because there's a larger market
for them. If you get an older one that's already fully depreciated,
you'll be able to sell it for just about what you paid for it.

- You'll learn much faster on a smaller boat. The ideal is to start on
something smaller than this, either a sailing dinghy or perhaps a day
sailor up to about 25' and doing this in 3 steps.

- It's safer. You're going to make mistakes. We all do. Because the
forces involved are smaller, you're mistakes are less likely to injure
somebody. In a small boat, muscle power can often prevent an
unfortunate outcome of a mistake. In a 24,000 lb boat, your mistakes
are far more likely to injure some or damage yours or someone else's boat.

- It's cheap. When you make those mistakes and wind up having to pay to
have a boat repaired, smaller boats are LOT'S cheaper to fix and do much
less damage to the other guy's boat.

- Learning to maneuver around the docks in a 24,000 lb. momentum machine
is like trying to learn to drive using a fully loaded semi in a wet ice
covered crowded parking lot. It can get real expensive, real fast.

Good luck, whatever you decide - Dan

jds wrote:
hi gordon, and thanks for the reply. as far as sailing experience, i have
none. have been on a few , but was never driving the boat, just riding. i
plan on taking some lessons and sail around in the bay for a while untill i
am comfortable enough with my skills to go out of the breakwater. im not on
any particular schedule, so time frame doesnt really matter.

i wont have any experienced crew. im ready to make the move, but not sure if
my present girl friend is or not. if she does, fine , if she doesnt, ill
find one who is. i wont be going off on any long trips alone. i will be
doing a lot of single hand sailing. if the weather is good, and i want to go
out and practice a bit, im not going to wait for somebody to decide if they
want to go along or not. im going.

i think most of my sailing will no doubt be coastal, with the occasional
trip to oregon, possibly alaska, possibly hawaii. more often to mexico, or
santa barbara, san diego etc. just screwing around in general and enjoying
myself and significant other. being as worthless as possible, other than
tending to the boat etc.

anyway, going to fly to lax in a couple three weeks and go hit some marinas
and get a little better idea of what im looking at and what i think my
requirements will be. should be fun and informative. get out of the heat for
a couple days. while i think a coastal boat may suffice, i also want one
stout enough to cruise in if the feeling grabs me.

thanks again to all for the advice. it is most appreciated. best regards,
j.d.
"Gordon Wedman" wrote in message
news:NFq%c.155425$X12.69348@edtnps84...



--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

Hi jds
If you are just starting out and will not often have crew you probably don't
want a boat much over 30 feet. Dan's idea of starting small and working up
is a good one except that you may find it difficult to live comfortably on
some of these smaller boats. Something like a Pearson 28, C&C 29, Catalina
30 might fit the bill. I think these are reasonably easy to sell at a later
date. You wouldn't want to take one of these to Hawaii but could harbour
hop up the coast. If you are going to do a lot of singlehanding a boat with
roller furling and an autopilot will make this a lot easier. I don't really
agree with Dan about starting on a dingy. In my opinion, capsizing and
being dumped into cold water is not an integral part of sailing. It may
turn you off and it most likely will not interest your girlfriend. I
basically learned to sail on J24s and I think these are sensitive enough. I
wouldn't recommend anything but a keelboat to a newcomer. I would recommend
taking a couple of ASA courses in your home area. You will learn much
faster than if you try on your own and you might find some crewmates. Take
your girlfriend along. If you are presently compatible in everything, but
sailing is a question mark, its probably a lot easier to get her into
sailing than to start all over again with someone else.
Good luck and remember, its supposed to be fun.

"jds" wrote in message
news:35N%c.16498$aW5.15058@fed1read07...
hi gordon, and thanks for the reply. as far as sailing experience, i have
none. have been on a few , but was never driving the boat, just riding. i
plan on taking some lessons and sail around in the bay for a while untill
i
am comfortable enough with my skills to go out of the breakwater. im not
on
any particular schedule, so time frame doesnt really matter.

i wont have any experienced crew. im ready to make the move, but not sure
if
my present girl friend is or not. if she does, fine , if she doesnt, ill
find one who is. i wont be going off on any long trips alone. i will be
doing a lot of single hand sailing. if the weather is good, and i want to
go
out and practice a bit, im not going to wait for somebody to decide if
they
want to go along or not. im going.

i think most of my sailing will no doubt be coastal, with the occasional
trip to oregon, possibly alaska, possibly hawaii. more often to mexico, or
santa barbara, san diego etc. just screwing around in general and enjoying
myself and significant other. being as worthless as possible, other than
tending to the boat etc.

anyway, going to fly to lax in a couple three weeks and go hit some
marinas
and get a little better idea of what im looking at and what i think my
requirements will be. should be fun and informative. get out of the heat
for
a couple days. while i think a coastal boat may suffice, i also want one
stout enough to cruise in if the feeling grabs me.

thanks again to all for the advice. it is most appreciated. best regards,
j.d.
"Gordon Wedman" wrote in message
news:NFq%c.155425$X12.69348@edtnps84...

great minds must truly think alike. thanks again dan, gordon. i have indeed
been thinking of a smaller boat. went to the lake the other day and looked
at an islander 28. nice boat, but too short. cant stand up in it. maybe some
of the others will have more headroom. im 6'2 in my socks. that said, very
sound advice from both and it truly is much appreciated. as i said
previously, im going to socal within a mont. probably 2 to 3 weeks and will
spend a couple of days looking at a lot of them. will take a digital camera
and a large chip and just have a good look. thanks again fellas and best
regards, j.d.

Coming late to this party...

JDS, search for threads originated by me starting about two years ago. Most
of them have lots of applicability to your situation.

I'm 6-4. Tall is a *VERY* large challenge if you're going to live aboard.
Like you, we wanted to stay small. If you want not to hit your head, it
will be very difficult to accomplish in a small boat. One which might work
for you is a Beneteau 321 or the like in that line; we very much liked one
of those in the first part of our search in the Virgins. What we didn't
like was as pointed out about this marque - not enough storage. Beneteaus
are roundly laughed at in the "serious cruiser" world, but somehow they seem
to be the huge majority of what's used in the Caribbean charter trade, and
they're routinely sailed to and from there and the east coast, so they must
have something going for them. For us, there's a variety of reasons we
didn't seriously look at them, even when we doubled our budget and
space/volume parameters (mentioned in earlier portions of this thread), but
one might be right for you.

We had to look for a very long time to meet our needs. With your couple of
inches less, it might not be quite as difficult. After looking at all the
atlases of boats (Sherwood, Mauch, etc.) to try to get a feel for layouts
and heights/drafts/various ratios, we (well, mostly I) reviewed over 3000
internet listings (primarily through YachtWorld or its sister Boats.com),
selecting over 300 candidates, and actually getting aboard right at 200,
videoing and shooting hours and gigabytes worth of digidata, to get to our
eventual type (make, model) preference. From there we really bore down, and
had our boat bought (after a failed mechanical and standard survey/trial on
our first successful offer), very quickly.

We had a slight advantage on you - I'd done a lot of sailing/cruising
earlier in my life, and Lydia'd grown up on a Channel Island which required
boats if you wanted to go anywhere - so we knew what to expect of the water
and boat life. It remained only to go on a leg of a circumnav with my
ex-father-in-law for her to be fully hooked; our search began in earnest at
that point - to that point, we'd only been talking about it for 4-5 years,
always knowing that we'd have to do the actuality first before committing to
it. Our trail led us to that first leg, then two bareboats on the smallest
and oldest boats we could find, in the nastiest conditions we could
generate, in order to simulate our likely home. Since she was still hooked,
we started the buying process. See above for synopsis :{)) [handlebars and
full beard, tm] Old-timers here can tell you it (our search) was a very
exhaustive process.

Others have said to get on a lot of boats. I agree with that wholeheartedly.
One other usual recommendation I've not yet seen is to haunt the docks and
crew for anyone who needs it. Someone's always looking for crew; it would
be an easy way to get a lot of sailing experience quickly and free, too.
Along the way you might find just the boat you wanted, but the bigger part
is to get lots of sailing under your hands and feet. I agree with the
recommendation to take your girlfriend with you. Might as well find out
what she's made of now, rather than after you've bought the boat...

It's going to be an exciting time, and perhaps grueling, too, as you go
about your search. Please keep us posted on your progress.

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Apologies if this appears twice - I didn't see it from the first reply:

great minds must truly think alike. thanks again dan, gordon. i have
indeed
been thinking of a smaller boat. went to the lake the other day and looked
at an islander 28. nice boat, but too short. cant stand up in it. maybe
some
of the others will have more headroom. im 6'2 in my socks. that said, very
sound advice from both and it truly is much appreciated. as i said
previously, im going to socal within a mont. probably 2 to 3 weeks and
will
spend a couple of days looking at a lot of them. will take a digital
camera
and a large chip and just have a good look. thanks again fellas and best
regards, j.d.


Coming late to this party...

JDS, search for threads originated by me starting about two years ago. Most
of them have lots of applicability to your situation.

I'm 6-4. Tall is a *VERY* large challenge if you're going to live aboard.
Like you, we wanted to stay small. If you want not to hit your head, it
will be very difficult to accomplish in a small boat. One which might work
for you is a Beneteau 321 or the like in that line; we very much liked one
of those in the first part of our search in the Virgins. What we didn't
like was as pointed out about this marque - not enough storage. Beneteaus
are roundly laughed at in the "serious cruiser" world, but somehow they seem
to be the huge majority of what's used in the Caribbean charter trade, and
they're routinely sailed to and from there and the east coast, so they must
have something going for them. For us, there's a variety of reasons we
didn't seriously look at them, even when we doubled our budget and
space/volume parameters (mentioned in earlier portions of this thread), but
one might be right for you.

We had to look for a very long time to meet our needs. With your couple of
inches less, it might not be quite as difficult. After looking at all the
atlases of boats (Sherwood, Mauch, etc.) to try to get a feel for layouts
and heights/drafts/various ratios, we (well, mostly I) reviewed over 3000
internet listings (primarily through YachtWorld or its sister Boats.com),
selecting over 300 candidates, and actually getting aboard right at 200,
videoing and shooting hours and gigabytes worth of digidata, to get to our
eventual type (make, model) preference. From there we really bore down, and
had our boat bought (after a failed mechanical and standard survey/trial on
our first successful offer), very quickly.

We had a slight advantage on you - I'd done a lot of sailing/cruising
earlier in my life, and Lydia'd grown up on a Channel Island which required
boats if you wanted to go anywhere - so we knew what to expect of the water
and boat life. It remained only to go on a leg of a circumnav with my
ex-father-in-law for her to be fully hooked; our search began in earnest at
that point - to that point, we'd only been talking about it for 4-5 years,
always knowing that we'd have to do the actuality first before committing to
it. Our trail led us to that first leg, then two bareboats on the smallest
and oldest boats we could find, in the nastiest conditions we could
generate, in order to simulate our likely home. Since she was still hooked,
we started the buying process. See above for synopsis :{)) [handlebars and
full beard, tm] Old-timers here can tell you it (our search) was a very
exhaustive process.

Others have said to get on a lot of boats. I agree with that wholeheartedly.
One other usual recommendation I've not yet seen is to haunt the docks and
crew for anyone who needs it. Someone's always looking for crew; it would
be an easy way to get a lot of sailing experience quickly and free, too.
Along the way you might find just the boat you wanted, but the bigger part
is to get lots of sailing under your hands and feet. I agree with the
recommendation to take your girlfriend with you. Might as well find out
what she's made of now, rather than after you've bought the boat...

It's going to be an exciting time, and perhaps grueling, too, as you go
about your search. Please keep us posted on your progress.

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

thanks skip. checked out your website. very nicely done, VERY nice vessel!!.

on another note, the sailing gods may very well be smiling on me!!. seems
one of the local yacht clubs is giving a free 2 day sailing course if you
join the club. called the guy, still no answer back , on how much it costs
to join. what would be a fair price for a 2 day lesson??

another possibly good thing. i was looking in the paper this morning, and a
guy has a gulf star 23 for sale with trailer. has 3 sails, sleeps 2, i guess
for overnighting for $1800 bux. have not seen the boat, so dont know what
shape it is in. but for the money, if i can learn to sail it without killing
myself, if i had to give it away after it served its purpose, it may well be
worth it. after reading dan and gordons advice, i think this may be a good
idea.

another question. is sailing sailing?? i would be in lake mead, nevada.
pretty big lake, but not by any means an ocean. can get very windy sometimes
though. is sailing in fresh water that much different from sailing on salt
water?? are the skill learned transferable, so to speak?? i must admit, im
getting excited about the prospect. much more convenient to drive 20 miles
to go sailing than 300. more time on the water, etc. and at any rate, would
give me at least some experience when looking for a larger boat.

would really appreciate your input on this fellas. thanks again and best
regards. j.d.

J.D.,
In some ways, lake sailing is harder than ocean or bay sailing. I don't
know about Lake Mead, but as a kid I did a lot of lake sailing on
smaller lakes and the winds on a lake tend to be far less consistent and
predictable. The can quickly change in both strength and direction.
This is not a bad thing and you'll get lots of practice trimming the
sails, thus learn even quicker.

Since I'm on the topic of the differences between lake, bay and ocean
sailing, bay sailing tends to have more consistent and predictable
winds, and you also get to deal with tides and currents. Depending on
the bay, you may also get to practice dodging huge tanker, freighters
and other comercial traffic. Ocean sailing has the most consistent and
predictble of winds, insignificant currents and less traffic, but you
get to deal with swells and waves.

Manmade lakes also tend to have very steep banks. Some of them even
also have old stumps down there. This can make anchoring difficult.
If, like one near here, there are also stumps, it ican also be a good
way to loose anchors.

I'm unfamiliar with the Gulf Star 23 (and Google came up empty on it),
but the size and cost is certainly right.

When I decided to get back into sailing, I bought a 25' trailerable
(http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/OurBoats.html) and this was the boat
I introduced my family to sailing with. It got 2 out of 3 of them
hooked on sailing (my daughter never did take to the sport). My wife
and son learned the basics of sailing and seamanship on that boat,
initially on fresh water lakes, then the SF Bay and short trips out the
gate. In a lot of ways, sailing that boat on SF Bay was a lot tricker
than sailing the larger boats. On summer afternoons, 20-25 knot winds
in "The Slot" are pretty common. These winds are no big deal on the
Tayana, but if you went out in them with all sail up in the MacGregor,
they would over-power you in a heartbeat. Suffice ti to say, we got a
lot of practice reef the main and changng jibs. The swing keel also
made it trivial to unstick it when we ran aground (I like to say that we
learned to sail the bay by the Braille method - an exageration, but not
an outrageous one).

Good luck - Dan

jds wrote:
thanks skip. checked out your website. very nicely done, VERY nice vessel!!.

on another note, the sailing gods may very well be smiling on me!!. seems
one of the local yacht clubs is giving a free 2 day sailing course if you
join the club. called the guy, still no answer back , on how much it costs
to join. what would be a fair price for a 2 day lesson??

another possibly good thing. i was looking in the paper this morning, and a
guy has a gulf star 23 for sale with trailer. has 3 sails, sleeps 2, i guess
for overnighting for $1800 bux. have not seen the boat, so dont know what
shape it is in. but for the money, if i can learn to sail it without killing
myself, if i had to give it away after it served its purpose, it may well be
worth it. after reading dan and gordons advice, i think this may be a good
idea.

another question. is sailing sailing?? i would be in lake mead, nevada.
pretty big lake, but not by any means an ocean. can get very windy sometimes
though. is sailing in fresh water that much different from sailing on salt
water?? are the skill learned transferable, so to speak?? i must admit, im
getting excited about the prospect. much more convenient to drive 20 miles
to go sailing than 300. more time on the water, etc. and at any rate, would
give me at least some experience when looking for a larger boat.

would really appreciate your input on this fellas. thanks again and best
regards. j.d.



--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

thanks again dan. its a gulf coast, not gulf star.thats what happens when
you get older. mind does strange things. my mistake.

anyway, i went to look at this "boat". doesnt look like its seen water in a
while. all the ropes are dry rotted or half worn out. cable seems ok. has
about a 4 foot long crack on the starboard side where the deck glues to the
hull. not broken all the way through, but a pretty good crack. in the
overall grand scheme of things, not too hard to repair. have been in the
auto body biz for 30 some odd years, have patched many a plastic car. hell i
own 2 of em. inside looks like someone threw a couple grenades in it. some
cracks in there too. all the cushions are shot, not really a big deal, cuz i
dont think anyone over 3 1/2 feet tall could get themselves below anyway.
does have a hanging locker. to what point i have no clue. sails are all
mildewed. doesnt look like they are rotted, very light sail material, guess
thats all you need for this thing. doesnt look too heavy. looks like one of
em is a spinnaker. . looks like everything is there. mast , boom etc. have
no clue how to rig it, either does the guy thats selling it. could probably
figure that out though. seems hes selling it for a friend that moved out of
state and is going to send him the money when/if it sells. mast has a dent
in it, fairly good sized one, also mast looks a little bent. winches work.
the wood on top of the cabin, hand holds i would assume, are all weather
cracked and havnt seen varnish in , at the very least, this century. all in
all , the best thing about the whole package , is the tires on the trailer
look pretty good.

if it holds water out, looks like the perfect new guy boat. if i ground it,
it would take a pretty good eye to determine where the new damage was. if i
sink it , i would be doing the sailing world a tremendous favor. if it holds
together long enough to teach me how to sail, would be doing me a tremendous
favor. so i need to sleep on it for a couple days and shoot the guy an
offer. 1800 is completely out of the question. $18 is closer to the mark,
but more likely than not, unacceptable to the present owner. think ill offer
him 800 bux and see what he says. all he can do is laugh at me. that will
make us even , as i had a pretty good laugh when i saw this tub.

on the plus side. i think a couple 3 weekends may do wonders for it. get in
there with a lot of soap and water to clean up the interior. wash the
cushion covers, maybe some new foam. have a friend that does auto
upholstery. but then again , why bother. function over form so to speak. no
ones going to be sitting on them anyway. clean the sails up. dont look too
big. can probably go to a laundramat and throw them in a washing machine. is
that ok to do?? if not , hose them out good and proper. another customer of
mine sells power boats and accessories. can get new rope at a fair price
from him. have some fibreglas. resin and cloth. could do the patch work in a
day or so. spot in some paint, maybe varnish the wood. pick up a cheap
outboard to get me out far enough to raise the sails, and off i go. if i can
pick it up for a grand, ill probably have 15 to 18 in it by the time its
ready for water, but thats acceptable to me. education costs money. could
probaly get a grand for it after im through with it, so not too bad. will be
sure to get a very good life jacket and waterproof my cell phone. anyway. if
it works out it should entertain the guys at the marina watching me learn
how to sail it. i will most likely be quite a sight to see for a while.
still havnt heard back from the guy about the sailing lessons. hes probaly
out sailing , been a very nice weekend here. high 90s and a little breezy.

so.....what do you think?? would like to hear what you guys think on this.

ps. just talked to the guy thats selling it. told him what i thought, he
suggested an 800 dollar offer to the owner. so we shall see. guess hes left
town permanantly and is paying 50 bux a month storage on it. seems several
people have called and looked at it. no offers thus far. as always, any
input much appreciated. best regards, j.d.

J.D,
I like your attitude! This is not a boat you're likely to fall in love
with, it's a tool to learn with and have some fun with. From your
description, the only thing that concerns me is the dent you describe in
the mast ("mast has a dent
in it, fairly good sized one, also mast looks a little bent"). This
is going to be a weak spot and even on a 22' boat, there can be some
prtty good compression loads on the mast. This may not be a deal
breaker, but loosing your mast can spoil a perfectly good day. Where is
the bend and how severe is it? The rest of it sounds like a little elbow
grease can bring it back to being functional.

The cost of all new running rigging on a 22' boat isn't significant,
even if you have to pay full retail. I wouldn't put the sails into a
washing machine if I were you. Lay em' out on a lawn and use a brush
and a weak bleach solution to get rid of the mildew.

Funny you sould mention the lack of varnish. We're in the middle of
redoing all out varnish. Here's a photo I took about an hour ago
showing the work I did today. We decided to use a product called Honey
Teak instead of varnish this time. It's a two part acrylic and
expensive compared to varnish, but you can put all the coats on in a
single day and it's supposed to hold up better.

i dont think anyone over 3 1/2 feet tall could get themselves below...
Yeah, 22' boats just don't have much volume to work with. That 25' one
we had was a lot better as especially in this size range, every foot
makes a big difference. All four of us could sleep below (my kids were
small back then), but when we were all below, if anyone was moving
around, everyone else was not only aware of it, but had to make
allowances for it.

Does the boat have any kind of an outboard that comes with it? You'll
pretty much need one. It can be small (3.4 - 5 hp), but you'll probably
need a long shaft one.




jds wrote:
thanks again dan. its a gulf coast, not gulf star.thats what happens when
you get older. mind does strange things. my mistake.

anyway, i went to look at this "boat". doesnt look like its seen water in a
while. all the ropes are dry rotted or half worn out. cable seems ok. has
about a 4 foot long crack on the starboard side where the deck glues to the
hull. not broken all the way through, but a pretty good crack. in the
overall grand scheme of things, not too hard to repair. have been in the
auto body biz for 30 some odd years, have patched many a plastic car. hell i
own 2 of em. inside looks like someone threw a couple grenades in it. some
cracks in there too. all the cushions are shot, not really a big deal, cuz i
dont think anyone over 3 1/2 feet tall could get themselves below anyway.
does have a hanging locker. to what point i have no clue. sails are all
mildewed. doesnt look like they are rotted, very light sail material, guess
thats all you need for this thing. doesnt look too heavy. looks like one of
em is a spinnaker. . looks like everything is there. mast , boom etc. have
no clue how to rig it, either does the guy thats selling it. could probably
figure that out though. seems hes selling it for a friend that moved out of
state and is going to send him the money when/if it sells. mast has a dent
in it, fairly good sized one, also mast looks a little bent. winches work.
the wood on top of the cabin, hand holds i would assume, are all weather
cracked and havnt seen varnish in , at the very least, this century. all in
all , the best thing about the whole package , is the tires on the trailer
look pretty good.

if it holds water out, looks like the perfect new guy boat. if i ground it,
it would take a pretty good eye to determine where the new damage was. if i
sink it , i would be doing the sailing world a tremendous favor. if it holds
together long enough to teach me how to sail, would be doing me a tremendous
favor. so i need to sleep on it for a couple days and shoot the guy an
offer. 1800 is completely out of the question. $18 is closer to the mark,
but more likely than not, unacceptable to the present owner. think ill offer
him 800 bux and see what he says. all he can do is laugh at me. that will
make us even , as i had a pretty good laugh when i saw this tub.

on the plus side. i think a couple 3 weekends may do wonders for it. get in
there with a lot of soap and water to clean up the interior. wash the
cushion covers, maybe some new foam. have a friend that does auto
upholstery. but then again , why bother. function over form so to speak. no
ones going to be sitting on them anyway. clean the sails up. dont look too
big. can probably go to a laundramat and throw them in a washing machine. is
that ok to do?? if not , hose them out good and proper. another customer of
mine sells power boats and accessories. can get new rope at a fair price
from him. have some fibreglas. resin and cloth. could do the patch work in a
day or so. spot in some paint, maybe varnish the wood. pick up a cheap
outboard to get me out far enough to raise the sails, and off i go. if i can
pick it up for a grand, ill probably have 15 to 18 in it by the time its
ready for water, but thats acceptable to me. education costs money. could
probaly get a grand for it after im through with it, so not too bad. will be
sure to get a very good life jacket and waterproof my cell phone. anyway. if
it works out it should entertain the guys at the marina watching me learn
how to sail it. i will most likely be quite a sight to see for a while.
still havnt heard back from the guy about the sailing lessons. hes probaly
out sailing , been a very nice weekend here. high 90s and a little breezy.

so.....what do you think?? would like to hear what you guys think on this.

ps. just talked to the guy thats selling it. told him what i thought, he
suggested an 800 dollar offer to the owner. so we shall see. guess hes left
town permanantly and is paying 50 bux a month storage on it. seems several
people have called and looked at it. no offers thus far. as always, any
input much appreciated. best regards, j.d.



--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

In article mYK0d.21858$aW5.21670@fed1read07,
"jds" wrote:

thanks skip. checked out your website. very nicely done, VERY nice vessel!!.

on another note, the sailing gods may very well be smiling on me!!. seems
one of the local yacht clubs is giving a free 2 day sailing course if you
join the club. called the guy, still no answer back , on how much it costs
to join. what would be a fair price for a 2 day lesson??

Nothing to add to the other posts *except* that volunteering to crew for
races will give you the best lessons, particularly on a 2-person dinghy:
One-on-one instruction, constantly. Right or wrong, you know
immediately. You might or might not have to join the club to get those
lessons as I don't know a racing fleet that wasn't looking for willing
vic^h^h^h volunteers.

To learn how to *sail* on your own, get (or borrow or rent) a little
dink and race in the single-handed one-design fleet(s). Nothing teaches
sail and boat handling better; the after-race discussions are incredible
learning tools.

Whatever you do, sail early and often.

I forget the beginning of the thread, but if you have a significant
other, first and always make sure they are having fun. If that means
never letting the boat heel more than 5 degrees, so be it.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

hi dan. well the dent in the mast is maybe 3-4" long and maybe half as wide
as the mast. doesnt look like it did anything structural, but dont know.
looks like someone dropped it. the bend in the mast isnt drastic. if you
stand and look up the thing, it just isnt quite straight, maybe a 3"
difference from top to bottom. maybe by the time its rigged, you could get
the bend out. not sure. in any case, it doesnt look like it would bend in
half.

ill have to take a closer look at the dent. could be a guy could take a 2x4,
trim it down till it slid through the good part of the mast, then take a
broom handle or a small diameter piece of pipe and gently tap the block
through and get most of the dent out. have done that before on tube frames
on 4 wheelers and sand rails. works pretty good most the time.

found a place to park it. can get a slip on the lake for 86 bux a month. 40
miles up the road, but if i cant find something closer, may be better than
trailing it all the time and having to re-rig it every time i want to go
sailing. will wait and see.

been looking for a small outboard. the boat doesnt have one. this may be the
most difficult part. seems there arent too many around. havnt done a lot of
searching yet though, so im pretty sure i can find something suitable.

thats about it. the more i think about it and check on additional costs
involved, it seems pretty doable. going to call the guy back tomorrow nite
and make him an offer. so, will see. one nice thing. to park it at a marina,
you have to have 300k in liability insurance. called my agent today, 55 bux
a year. wow. wish i could do my cars for that. seems on a boat this size,
they go by horsepower. when i told him 3 to 5 , he kind of laughed and gave
me the price. good deal. trailer is covered when its attached to my car, no
worries there. foolish not to have at least liability coverage anyway.

once again dan, thank you for your input. as always, well noted and
appreciated. wish me luck. best regards, j.d.

well. im an owner. going to the bank in the morning. so , here we go. will
haul it down to my shop this weekend and start cleaning her up and do some
minor repairs. hopwe to have it on the water in less than a month. possibly
3 weeks. will take some photos and post them when i get her home. thanks for
all the input from you fellas. much appreciated. will keep you posted.
thanks again and best regards, j.d.

Congratulations, J.D.,

I've no doubt that your going to have a lot of fun with this thing.
Judging from your posts, I suspect that you're going to be pretty
aggressive about spending time aboard, learning the ropes and most
importantly, learning the boat's limitations. If that's the case, don't
be surprised if you find that you're pushing it's design envelope in a
year or so.

Every one's different and I don't know the first thing about you're girl
friend, but unless she is pretty adventurous, take lots of baby steps
with her. Extend her personal sailing envelope just a little bit at a
time. Take it from me, sailing with the rail under water and screaming
with delight at the top of your lungs can be great fun, but it can also
permanently scare off the less adventurous. I've got one young friend
that I'm ashamed to admit when I introduced her to sailing, I had a
great time, but it scared her so bad that ever since, she has flatly
refused to set foot aboard a sailboat. That was about 8 years ago and
to this day, she has never again been aboard a boat.

As I said, everyone's different, but perhaps the tale of how my wife
developed into a sailor might be instructive:

The background is that I sailed a fair amount in my teens and early
20's, including some pretty competitive SF Bay racing. Then when I left
the financial wing of my parents, that pretty much came to an end except
for occasional day sails on a friends' boat. She had been day sailing
strictly as a passenger a handful of times, primarily on our friends
Cascade 29.

About 8 or 9 years ago, I decided that I wanted to get back into sailing
and bought a 25' trailerable (in about the same condition as your new
boat). My wife originally came with me primarily because it was a way
to spend some recreational time with me as opposed to any great love of
sailing on her part.

We started out slowly, sailing and overnighting on some fresh water
lakes around here. My wife, being an intelligent lady, soon figured out
that if anything happened to me (like going overboard), it was going to
be up to her to sail the boat back to me or at the worst, sailing the
boat (with her two young children aboard) back to the docks or launch
ramp.

Partially for this reason, partially because she was enjoying her time
on the boat, and partially because me being a lazy turd, I encouraged
her to become crew and eventually co-skipper, she left the role of
passenger behind and started learning all that sailing a small boat
entails. The more active her participation became, the more she enjoyed
it. As a result, we wound up sailing that boat at least 3 weekends a
month for the year that we owned it. By the end of that year, we were
able to handle anything SF Bay could throw at us and were making short
trips out the Golden Gate into the Pacific. And while I usually still
made the safety decisions (Do we go out the gate or stay inside today?
Should we reef or change headsails?, etc.) when a job needed to be done
(reefing, setting the anchor, changing headsails, etc.), whichever of us
was not on the tiller was the one who went forward to do it. After a
year, we moved up to a Catalina 30 and began exploring the California
coast in earnest.

Fast forward several years (past lots of coastal cruising and a 2 month
trip from SF Bay down around Baja and up into the Sea of Cortez).

We are standing on the bow of a friends Valiant, having just helped him
deliver it from SF Bay down to Santa Cruz Island (off Santa Barbara). I
had just set the anchor and we are enjoying a quiet minute up on the bow
in a secluded anchorage. She turns to me and says "Dan, I think it may
be time to get the bigger boat." Three months later, we purchased our
Tayana and started planning and preparing to go cruising in 2007 or 2008.

Fast forward again to a few months ago. I had recently been
hospitalized for a few days with a potentially debilitating illness. It
turns out that I narrowly dodged the bullet and am going to be OK after
all. We're sitting at the dinner table and out of the blue, she asks me
what I think about the idea of leaving this fall instead of later.

We are now T minus 17 days before departure, but whose counting?

Many marriages have broken up and/or cruising plans come to naught
because one of the partners wound up not enjoying it. It is no doubt
largely due to luck that my wife is so enthusiastic about my dream, but
I attribute at least some of it to the fact that I tried hard to make
sure that she enjoyed herself that first year.

Good luck, and hopefully, we'll cross wakes at some point - Dan

jds wrote:
well. im an owner. going to the bank in the morning. so , here we go. will
haul it down to my shop this weekend and start cleaning her up and do some
minor repairs. hopwe to have it on the water in less than a month. possibly
3 weeks. will take some photos and post them when i get her home. thanks for
all the input from you fellas. much appreciated. will keep you posted.
thanks again and best regards, j.d.



--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG