The only thing "great" about that article is how clearly it demonstrates
that some people are too stupid to own a boat...how determined they are
to be protected from their own stupidity and that the rest of us pay for
that protection. Anyone who has at least a room temperature IQ should
know better than to breathe engine exhaust...from a car OR a boat!

Btw...I've owned boats and/or been around 'em for most of my 60 years,
and I THINK my IQ is at least room temperature...but this makes NO sense me:

"But Glenn Palmer... says he had no clue when refueling his boat...The
refueling mechanism required a running engine...."

I've never heard of ANY refueling system that requires a running
engine...in fact always been taught that correct safety procedure
require just the opposite--that NOTHING be on...not the engines, not the
blowers, nor anything electrical or electronic during fueling. Even
blowers should not be turned on till AFTER fueling.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

Peggie Hall wrote in
:

The only thing "great" about that article is how clearly it
demonstrates that some people are too stupid to own a boat...how
determined they are to be protected from their own stupidity and that
the rest of us pay for that protection.

If congress passed a law requiring common sense or outlawing stupidity, we
wouldn't need all of this other legislation! :-)

-- Geoff

Peggie Hall wrote in message ...
The only thing "great" about that article is how clearly it demonstrates
that some people are too stupid to own a boat...how determined they are
to be protected from their own stupidity and that the rest of us pay for
that protection. Anyone who has at least a room temperature IQ should
know better than to breathe engine exhaust...from a car OR a boat!

Btw...I've owned boats and/or been around 'em for most of my 60 years,
and I THINK my IQ is at least room temperature...but this makes NO sense me:

"But Glenn Palmer... says he had no clue when refueling his boat...The
refueling mechanism required a running engine...."

I've never heard of ANY refueling system that requires a running
engine...in fact always been taught that correct safety procedure
require just the opposite--that NOTHING be on...not the engines, not the
blowers, nor anything electrical or electronic during fueling. Even
blowers should not be turned on till AFTER fueling.


In fact some motors are so hungry that you better shut off the engine
to be able to get more gas pumped in as the motors guzzle out

Matt

On Wednesday 25 August 2004 8:32 pm in rec.boats.cruising Matt Lang wrote:

I've never heard of ANY refueling system that requires a running
engine...in fact always been taught that correct safety procedure
require just the opposite--that NOTHING be on...not the engines, not the
blowers, nor anything electrical or electronic during fueling. Even
blowers should not be turned on till AFTER fueling.


In fact some motors are so hungry that you better shut off the engine
to be able to get more gas pumped in as the motors guzzle out

Refueling a petrol(usa gasoline) tank should never be done with
any possible sources of ignition running, but larger diesel yachts
have other requirements, some need transfer pumps (and therefore
a generator) to be running in order to fill all tanks in a
reasonabe time. The tanker driver will be rather annoyed if
he is kept waiting for 2 hours to deliver 15000 litres.


--
My real address is crn (at) netunix (dot) com
WARNING all messages containing attachments or html will be silently
deleted. Send only plain text.

Chris Newport wrote:

The tanker driver will be rather annoyed if
he is kept waiting for 2 hours to deliver 15000 litres.

If I were paying for 4,000 gallons of diesel I would not only expect him
wait 2 hours but wash the windows and check the oil too. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Chris Newport wrote:
On Wednesday 25 August 2004 8:32 pm in rec.boats.cruising Matt Lang wrote:


I've never heard of ANY refueling system that requires a running
engine...in fact always been taught that correct safety procedure
require just the opposite--that NOTHING be on...not the engines, not the
blowers, nor anything electrical or electronic during fueling. Even
blowers should not be turned on till AFTER fueling.

Refueling a petrol(usa gasoline) tank should never be done with
any possible sources of ignition running, but larger diesel yachts
have other requirements, some need transfer pumps (and therefore
a generator) to be running in order to fill all tanks in a
reasonabe time.

If his engine was diesel, he'd have had to be standing on his head with
with his nose next to the exhaust thru-hull...'cuz there's never been a
reported marine related CO death or "near miss" from a diesel exhaust in
open air...they've all been from gas (petrol to you g)
engines/generators. In fact, gasoline engines are the only ones at
issue, because most smaller boats and boats on inland waters where most
of the accidents happen have gas engines.

Which leads me to wonder just how thoroughly the LA Times reporter
actually researched that article...and how much he just accepted
stories from people who "know someone who knows someone who..." as true
without verifying 'em. That happens more often than you might think.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

On Thursday 26 August 2004 3:42 am in rec.boats.cruising Peggie Hall wrote:

Refueling a petrol(usa gasoline) tank should never be done with
any possible sources of ignition running, but larger diesel yachts
have other requirements, some need transfer pumps (and therefore
a generator) to be running in order to fill all tanks in a
reasonabe time.

If his engine was diesel, he'd have had to be standing on his head with
with his nose next to the exhaust thru-hull...'cuz there's never been a
reported marine related CO death or "near miss" from a diesel exhaust in
open air...they've all been from gas (petrol to you g)
engines/generators. In fact, gasoline engines are the only ones at
issue, because most smaller boats and boats on inland waters where most
of the accidents happen have gas engines.

Indeed, I have never understood the american love affair with
gas-guzzling engines. One of the problems here is that most of
them are relics of an age when emissions were not considered.
On this side of the pond, the boat safety rules and the high
price of road fuel mean that petrol engines are effectively
restricted to outboards.

Which leads me to wonder just how thoroughly the LA Times reporter
actually researched that article...and how much he just accepted
stories from people who "know someone who knows someone who..." as true
without verifying 'em. That happens more often than you might think.

Like all newspapers, there is a gem of truth in there if you dig
deep enough, but most of what they write is sensationalised to
sell more newspapers.

My theory is that such boats should be subsidised so that the
idiots can afford to buy them and darwinate before they breed.
Quite apart from the CO issues it is just plain idiocy to swim
from the back of a boat with the engine running. How many of these
idiots manage to get shredded by the prop each year ?.

--
My real address is crn (at) netunix (dot) com
WARNING all messages containing attachments or html will be silently
deleted. Send only plain text.

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:22:44 +0100, Chris Newport
wrote:

darwinate before they breed.

Oh, thank you! I am keeping that one..."darwinate": vt.: to suddenly
remove oneself violently from the gene pool due to innate stupidity or
willful ignorance.

So I guess certain types of boater could be described as
"self-darwinating organisms" or SDOs. Think lemmings with PFDs (even
though lemmings don't actually make a habit of group plummeting...)

R.

Peggie Hall wrote in
:


If his engine was diesel, he'd have had to be standing on his head
with with his nose next to the exhaust thru-hull...'cuz there's never
been a reported marine related CO death or "near miss" from a diesel
exhaust in open air...they've all been from gas (petrol to you g)
engines/generators. In fact, gasoline engines are the only ones at
issue, because most smaller boats and boats on inland waters where
most of the accidents happen have gas engines.

This isn't true. Actually there have been a few documented cases of CO
death due to diesel generators outputting exhaust fumes below swim
platforms and/or blowing back into poorly ventilated deck spaces. I spent
quite a bit of time looking into this last year. Quoting from the much
missed FischerPandaSucks.com forum:

"OSHA sets a CO exposure limit of 50 PPM for 1 hour. If levels exceed 100
PPM personnel must be removed.

Exposure to 300 PPM for 1-2 hours can result in death. Exposure to 800 PPM
for 1 hour is deadly. Source:
http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/carbonmonoxide.html

While diesel exhaust has a much lower CO composition (0.4%) compared to
gasoline engine (7%), it does have 1000-5000 PPM of CO with levels up to
60,000 PPM possible. Source: http://www.coheadquarters.com/coDiesel01.htm"


However, I will definately state that this type of problem was MUCH more
prevelent with gas power generators.

-- Geoff

"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote:
Peggie Hall wrote in
:

If his engine was diesel, he'd have had to be standing on his head
with with his nose next to the exhaust thru-hull...'cuz there's never
been a reported marine related CO death or "near miss" from a diesel
exhaust in open air...they've all been from gas (petrol to you g)
engines/generators. In fact, gasoline engines are the only ones at
issue, because most smaller boats and boats on inland waters where
most of the accidents happen have gas engines.

This isn't true. Actually there have been a few documented cases of CO
death due to diesel generators outputting exhaust fumes below swim
platforms and/or blowing back into poorly ventilated deck spaces. I spent
quite a bit of time looking into this last year. Quoting from the much
missed FischerPandaSucks.com forum:

I don't know that this is the best place to get info. I have sampled
for CO at a solid waste transfer station, and none of the trash trucks
which were diesel made the meter move at all (it was under cover but
it was quite a large building), and the cranes etc that were running
in there constantly did not either. Every time a little pick-up came
through the door though, the meter would peg over.

"OSHA sets a CO exposure limit of 50 PPM for 1 hour. If levels exceed 100
PPM personnel must be removed.

No that it a Permissible Exposure Limit (PEL) of 50 ppm for 8 hours
(Time Weighted Average). The old standard which was overturned and
which NIOSH still recommends was 35 ppm for 8 hours. The ACGIH
recommends 25 ppm for an 8 hour TWA. The ceiling (max value) for 5
minutes is 200 ppm.

That's for industrial exposures.

Exposure to 300 PPM for 1-2 hours can result in death. Exposure to 800 PPM
for 1 hour is deadly. Source:
http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/carbonmonoxide.html

The instantaneous limit (like from opening a blast furnace) allowed is
1500 ppm. The IDLH (immediately dangerous to life and health) level is
1200 ppm (that's less than an hour).

While diesel exhaust has a much lower CO composition (0.4%) compared to
gasoline engine (7%), it does have 1000-5000 PPM of CO with levels up to
60,000 PPM possible. Source: http://www.coheadquarters.com/coDiesel01.htm"


This says undiluted exhaust. IOW they are measuring in the exhaust
pipe. While it is true that all combustion will produce CO, gasoline
engines produce at least double the amount that diesel does. And when
it is in diesel exhaust, the exhaust gases themselves have an odor so
if you can smell the diesel exhaust you probably ought to do something
about it because it will have CO in it.

However, I will definately state that this type of problem was MUCH more
prevelent with gas power generators.

grandma Rosalie