There's a great boating article in the LA times
 

There's an article on boating that appeared in the LA Times today. The
writer's email is

Stern alert

Dragging behind a boat or even hanging out near exhaust puts boaters
at risk for carbon monoxide poisoning. Some blame engine design and
lack of warning labels, but others point to operator error.

http://www.latimes.com/features/outd...lines-outdoors

By Charles Duhigg
Times Staff Writer

The air that killed Mark Tostado on Labor Day weekend was calm and
hot, the product of the sunny days that draw boaters year-round to
Lake Havasu, on the California-Arizona line.

Tostado, 31, a Huntington Beach personal fitness trainer and military
veteran, had waded into the lake's shallow Bridgewater Channel last
year to say goodbye to a woman standing behind two idling boats. She
playfully stole his hat and turned away. When she looked back less
than a minute later, Tostado was gone. His body was found the next
day.

An autopsy revealed that Tostado's blood was 40.7% saturated with
carbon monoxide, a colorless and odorless gas released as engines burn
gasoline. Tostado presumably breathed a pocket of exhaust from nearby
boats, passed out and drowned.

A spate of such deaths, more than 100 nationwide since 1990, prompted
the California Assembly to recently pass a bill that would force boat
sellers to put carbon monoxide warning labels on vessels and outlaw
boaters from standing or hanging onto swim platforms attached to the
stern while an engine is running. The state Senate passed the
legislation Monday.

But the families of carbon monoxide victims, legislators and
physicians want boat makers and the Coast Guard, which regulates boat
and marine engine design, to do more. They say improved marine engines
and an aggressive public-awareness campaign about carbon monoxide
dangers will help save lives.

In addition to the 111 confirmed deaths from carbon monoxide,
independent and government scientists say that boat exhaust may be a
factor in 40% of all drownings near boats, as many as 200 per year.
The data are uncertain because many drowning victims never get tested
for carbon monoxide poisoning.

"We solved this problem with cars," said Dr. Robert Baron, medical
director of the Glen Canyon National Recreation Area in Arizona. "If
five or 10 years ago boat manufacturers had put efforts into research,
these people would still be alive."

Boat and engine manufacturers say that it's time-consuming and costly
to develop new engines, and that boaters behave irresponsibly.

They point to "teak surfing," in which swimmers hang off the swim
platform. In May 2003, teak surfer Anthony Farr, 11, inhaled carbon
monoxide from a boat's exhaust pipes under the platform, passed out
and drowned in Folsom Lake near Sacramento.

"The issue is the stupidity of people who let their kids hang around
the business end of a boat," said Larry Meddock, director of the Water
Sports Industry Assn. "If this was a crisis, the Coast Guard would be
responding differently. They haven't issued any regulations on this
issue."

Platform dangers

Researchers from the National Institute for Occupational Safety and
Health say carbon monoxide poisoning fatalities began increasing in
the 1970s when boats were equipped with swim platforms. Scientists
estimate that three inhalations of carbon monoxide-rich air can cause
death.

"When I was growing up, there were no swim platforms, just ladders on
the sides of boats," said Tom McAlpine, an Alabama lawyer who
represented the estate of a child who died of carbon monoxide
poisoning after hanging onto the swim platform of an idling boat.

As part of a settlement, manufacturer Correct Craft began adding
carbon monoxide warnings to its boats in the late '90s. The
2-by-4-inch sticker reads, in part, "Stay off and keep away from
boarding platform while engine is running."

Meanwhile, the company and another major boat maker, MasterCraft, sell
showering attachments that many users operate while standing on the
swim platform. According to boat dealers, the engine must be running
to provide a steady stream of hot water for the shower.

"One of their own designs forces people to stand in an exposure area.
It doesn't make any sense," said Jane McCammon, a researcher for the
National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health.

Correct Craft executives and the company's chief engineer, Bill Snook,
declined to answer questions regarding the shower units. A MasterCraft
representative said its owners' manuals and decals warn against
standing on the swim platform while the engine is running.

Weak warnings?

Boat industry critics, including physician Baron, attorney McAlpine
and researchers from the national Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention, which, in a 2000 report, recommended removal of swim
platforms, say the manufacturers' current sticker warnings are
insufficient.

Studies by the Coast Guard and other government agencies show that
carbon monoxide poisoning can occur inside boats, particularly in back
seats.

"CO levels in the stern [back] seat of a ski boat are high enough to
be cause for concern," one study reads. "CO levels at 20 feet behind
the towed boat are high enough to affect towed tubers who tend to be
young children."

In a 1997 incident, a 13-year-old girl lay on the back seat of an
open-air powerboat as it headed to an Arizona lakeshore. Fifteen
minutes later, when the boat docked, she was dead of carbon monoxide
poisoning, according to the examining physician.

The American Boat and Yacht Council recommends that stickers on boats
include warnings to not "occupy aft lounging areas when engine[s] or
generator[s] is running." Stickers by MasterCraft and Correct Craft
contain no such warnings about back-seat risks.

"The boat companies encourage people to sit back there by putting in
seats and drink holders," said Teresa Stark, chief of staff to
California Assemblyman Paul Koretz (D-West Hollywood), who introduced
the bill that would require boats sold in California to carry large
warning stickers. The measure would also prohibit boaters from
occupying, hanging onto or bodysurfing behind swim platforms while a
boat was operating. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has not stated his
position on the bill, but Stark expects him to sign it into law when
it reaches his desk.

Boat manufacturers maintain that operator error, not boat design,
results in carbon monoxide poisoning.

"There is virtually no risk of carbon monoxide poisoning" when boaters
comply with state and Coast Guard regulations, Snook, Correct Craft's
chief engineer, said in an e-mail.

"It's not my fault you've got parents who stick their kid behind an
exhaust pipe," said Rick Lee, president of Fineline Industries, a
powerboat manufacturer. "Why weren't these kids wearing life jackets?
For over 80 years, society has been smart enough to not breathe in
stinky exhaust."

But Glenn Palmer, a 20-year Phoenix paramedic trained in carbon
monoxide detection, says he had no clue when refueling his boat in
November that he was inhaling the odorless gas. The refueling
mechanism required a running engine.

"There was no smell of exhaust or fumes, no lightheadedness, nothing,"
Palmer said. "I was standing there talking to my wife for about five
minutes, when she said my eyes rolled up in mid-sentence and bam, I
was out. It hit me so fast, if I had fallen in the water, I would have
had no chance."

New controls

In the 1960s and 1970s, Congress addressed concerns over carbon
monoxide emissions from automobiles by passing laws that required car
manufacturers, but not boat makers, to decrease emissions.

Relatives of carbon monoxide victims say manufacturers have had
decades to develop cleaner engines. Use of catalytic converters — a
honeycomb filter that transforms carbon monoxide into safer gases —
would essentially eliminate the emissions, they say. Boat exhaust
contains 188 times more carbon monoxide than the average emission from
an automobile.

But marine engine experts say the automotive solution won't work in
water.

"Catalysts and water don't mix," said Dick Rowe, founder and chief
executive of Indmar Products, a major marine engine manufacturer.
"When you put an engine in the water, everything changes."

By 2008, however, the California Air Resources Board will effectively
require new boat engines to incorporate catalytic converters. To
establish the standard, it hired the Southwest Research Institute in
San Antonio to equip four marine engines with catalytic converters.
The project took four years and cost $1 million, according to chief
engineer James Carroll, and the engines have successfully performed in
freshwater lakes for more than 400 hours.

Regulators, including Andrew Spencer, an air pollution specialist at
the Air Resources Board, say manufacturers could have produced safer
engines more than a decade ago if they had made them a priority.

Manufacturers say they expect to surmount the technological challenges
before 2008, but until then, consumers will dictate their agenda.

"Why haven't we solved carbon monoxide?" asked Rowe of Indmar.
"Because there are other research priorities that are rewarded more by
consumers. We're not sure we know how to market a catalytic
converter-equipped boat. We are a small company. We can't afford to
spend money on research consumers won't appreciate."

Critics also blame the Coast Guard for insufficiently policing the
industry. The guard has no regulations related to carbon monoxide.

"How can the Coast Guard know this is happening and not require
warnings?" asked Mike Farr, father of the boy who died while teak
surfing on Folsom Lake near Sacramento. "How come there are no
regulations from the Coast Guard about boat design to keep people away
from the backs of boats?"

The Coast Guard's specialist on carbon monoxide emissions defends the
agency's approach, noting that it sponsors media campaigns and
workshops about the dangers of the gas.

"We have raised the issue of requiring warning labels at our
workshops, but the manufacturers have blocked that proposal," said
Richard Blackman, an engineer in the Coast Guard's Office of Boating
Safety. "I'm not sure it's worth the investment."

Blackman said the Coast Guard is reluctant to issue regulations that
will meet industry resistance. "The Coast Guard says if industry can
regulate themselves, then it's in the best interest of everyone for
companies to choose what should be done," he said.

Meanwhile, many boaters blame adults and fate for carbon monoxide
deaths. "I would never let a kid hang off the back of a boat without a
life jacket," Charlie Hardke, 32, said as he drove his powerboat
around Folsom Lake. "But if there are toxic levels of carbon monoxide,
I'd like to know."

One of Hardke's passengers, Robyn Westlake, a physician specializing
in internal medicine, floated in the water near the back of the boat.

"I don't think it is any worse than the freeway, is it?" she asked.

On a day set aside for water play, victims often do not realize air
quality is hazardous until it's too late. Charles Duhigg is a Times
staff writer. He can be reached at .

The only thing "great" about that article is how clearly it demonstrates
that some people are too stupid to own a boat...how determined they are
to be protected from their own stupidity and that the rest of us pay for
that protection. Anyone who has at least a room temperature IQ should
know better than to breathe engine exhaust...from a car OR a boat!

Btw...I've owned boats and/or been around 'em for most of my 60 years,
and I THINK my IQ is at least room temperature...but this makes NO sense me:

"But Glenn Palmer... says he had no clue when refueling his boat...The
refueling mechanism required a running engine...."

I've never heard of ANY refueling system that requires a running
engine...in fact always been taught that correct safety procedure
require just the opposite--that NOTHING be on...not the engines, not the
blowers, nor anything electrical or electronic during fueling. Even
blowers should not be turned on till AFTER fueling.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

Peggie Hall wrote in
:

The only thing "great" about that article is how clearly it
demonstrates that some people are too stupid to own a boat...how
determined they are to be protected from their own stupidity and that
the rest of us pay for that protection.

If congress passed a law requiring common sense or outlawing stupidity, we
wouldn't need all of this other legislation! :-)

-- Geoff

Peggie Hall wrote in message ...
The only thing "great" about that article is how clearly it demonstrates
that some people are too stupid to own a boat...how determined they are
to be protected from their own stupidity and that the rest of us pay for
that protection. Anyone who has at least a room temperature IQ should
know better than to breathe engine exhaust...from a car OR a boat!

Btw...I've owned boats and/or been around 'em for most of my 60 years,
and I THINK my IQ is at least room temperature...but this makes NO sense me:

"But Glenn Palmer... says he had no clue when refueling his boat...The
refueling mechanism required a running engine...."

I've never heard of ANY refueling system that requires a running
engine...in fact always been taught that correct safety procedure
require just the opposite--that NOTHING be on...not the engines, not the
blowers, nor anything electrical or electronic during fueling. Even
blowers should not be turned on till AFTER fueling.


In fact some motors are so hungry that you better shut off the engine
to be able to get more gas pumped in as the motors guzzle out ;)

Matt

On Wednesday 25 August 2004 8:32 pm in rec.boats.cruising Matt Lang wrote:

I've never heard of ANY refueling system that requires a running
engine...in fact always been taught that correct safety procedure
require just the opposite--that NOTHING be on...not the engines, not the
blowers, nor anything electrical or electronic during fueling. Even
blowers should not be turned on till AFTER fueling.


In fact some motors are so hungry that you better shut off the engine
to be able to get more gas pumped in as the motors guzzle out ;)

Refueling a petrol(usa gasoline) tank should never be done with
any possible sources of ignition running, but larger diesel yachts
have other requirements, some need transfer pumps (and therefore
a generator) to be running in order to fill all tanks in a
reasonabe time. The tanker driver will be rather annoyed if
he is kept waiting for 2 hours to deliver 15000 litres.


--
My real address is crn (at) netunix (dot) com
WARNING all messages containing attachments or html will be silently
deleted. Send only plain text.

Chris Newport wrote:

The tanker driver will be rather annoyed if
he is kept waiting for 2 hours to deliver 15000 litres.

If I were paying for 4,000 gallons of diesel I would not only expect him
wait 2 hours but wash the windows and check the oil too. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Chris Newport wrote:
On Wednesday 25 August 2004 8:32 pm in rec.boats.cruising Matt Lang wrote:


I've never heard of ANY refueling system that requires a running
engine...in fact always been taught that correct safety procedure
require just the opposite--that NOTHING be on...not the engines, not the
blowers, nor anything electrical or electronic during fueling. Even
blowers should not be turned on till AFTER fueling.

Refueling a petrol(usa gasoline) tank should never be done with
any possible sources of ignition running, but larger diesel yachts
have other requirements, some need transfer pumps (and therefore
a generator) to be running in order to fill all tanks in a
reasonabe time.

If his engine was diesel, he'd have had to be standing on his head with
with his nose next to the exhaust thru-hull...'cuz there's never been a
reported marine related CO death or "near miss" from a diesel exhaust in
open air...they've all been from gas (petrol to you g)
engines/generators. In fact, gasoline engines are the only ones at
issue, because most smaller boats and boats on inland waters where most
of the accidents happen have gas engines.

Which leads me to wonder just how thoroughly the LA Times reporter
actually researched that article...and how much he just accepted
stories from people who "know someone who knows someone who..." as true
without verifying 'em. That happens more often than you might think.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

On Thursday 26 August 2004 3:42 am in rec.boats.cruising Peggie Hall wrote:

Refueling a petrol(usa gasoline) tank should never be done with
any possible sources of ignition running, but larger diesel yachts
have other requirements, some need transfer pumps (and therefore
a generator) to be running in order to fill all tanks in a
reasonabe time.

If his engine was diesel, he'd have had to be standing on his head with
with his nose next to the exhaust thru-hull...'cuz there's never been a
reported marine related CO death or "near miss" from a diesel exhaust in
open air...they've all been from gas (petrol to you g)
engines/generators. In fact, gasoline engines are the only ones at
issue, because most smaller boats and boats on inland waters where most
of the accidents happen have gas engines.

Indeed, I have never understood the american love affair with
gas-guzzling engines. One of the problems here is that most of
them are relics of an age when emissions were not considered.
On this side of the pond, the boat safety rules and the high
price of road fuel mean that petrol engines are effectively
restricted to outboards.

Which leads me to wonder just how thoroughly the LA Times reporter
actually researched that article...and how much he just accepted
stories from people who "know someone who knows someone who..." as true
without verifying 'em. That happens more often than you might think.

Like all newspapers, there is a gem of truth in there if you dig
deep enough, but most of what they write is sensationalised to
sell more newspapers.

My theory is that such boats should be subsidised so that the
idiots can afford to buy them and darwinate before they breed.
Quite apart from the CO issues it is just plain idiocy to swim
from the back of a boat with the engine running. How many of these
idiots manage to get shredded by the prop each year ?.

--
My real address is crn (at) netunix (dot) com
WARNING all messages containing attachments or html will be silently
deleted. Send only plain text.

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:22:44 +0100, Chris Newport
wrote:

darwinate before they breed.

Oh, thank you! I am keeping that one..."darwinate": vt.: to suddenly
remove oneself violently from the gene pool due to innate stupidity or
willful ignorance.

So I guess certain types of boater could be described as
"self-darwinating organisms" or SDOs. Think lemmings with PFDs (even
though lemmings don't actually make a habit of group plummeting...)

R.

Peggie Hall wrote in
:


If his engine was diesel, he'd have had to be standing on his head
with with his nose next to the exhaust thru-hull...'cuz there's never
been a reported marine related CO death or "near miss" from a diesel
exhaust in open air...they've all been from gas (petrol to you g)
engines/generators. In fact, gasoline engines are the only ones at
issue, because most smaller boats and boats on inland waters where
most of the accidents happen have gas engines.

This isn't true. Actually there have been a few documented cases of CO
death due to diesel generators outputting exhaust fumes below swim
platforms and/or blowing back into poorly ventilated deck spaces. I spent
quite a bit of time looking into this last year. Quoting from the much
missed FischerPandaSucks.com forum:

"OSHA sets a CO exposure limit of 50 PPM for 1 hour. If levels exceed 100
PPM personnel must be removed.

Exposure to 300 PPM for 1-2 hours can result in death. Exposure to 800 PPM
for 1 hour is deadly. Source:
http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/carbonmonoxide.html

While diesel exhaust has a much lower CO composition (0.4%) compared to
gasoline engine (7%), it does have 1000-5000 PPM of CO with levels up to
60,000 PPM possible. Source: http://www.coheadquarters.com/coDiesel01.htm"


However, I will definately state that this type of problem was MUCH more
prevelent with gas power generators.

-- Geoff