The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

The Sand Hole is a water-filled sand pit on Lloydd's Neck at the entrance
to Oyster Bay, Long Island, NY. Inside the Sand Hole there is plenty of
water -- as much as 25 feet at low tide -- so lonmg as one is careful
where one anchors. But the entrance to the place is through two narrow
channels whose sides slope sharply and through which the ebb or flood
flows at as much as five knots. Average tide is about seven feet. The
phrase "local knowledge" was invented for this place. Until recently a
careful sailboat drawing 5 feet or more could get in and out at dead low
tide, some times more easily than at a higher stage of the tide because
you could see where the water was and where it wasn't. But not now. The
two choke points have shoaled. Passage at less than half tide is now
problematical at best.

On a recent Saturday we watched several sailboats try to get out at low
tide. They all got stuck as we watched and made nastry remarks about
strangers messing up. To add insult to injury, the Coast Guard came
along. No doubt the big Beneteau thought they were going to help him.
They did not. They boarded him and left him looking very irate. They then
circled the pond, hassled a coulole of other motor boats and one was
heard to say to the others as they passed us "I think they (us) are OK."

The boats got over the inner bar but could not clear the outer one and
eventually anchored until there was enough water to get out.

We left the next morning at dead low tide. We never had a problem before.
But this time we were stuck, first on the inner bar then the outer one.
We spent three hours trying to get out, which had never happened before.

So, if you are going there, beware. And don't even try to enter on an
ebbing tide. You could end up with an excellent opportunity to clear the
barnacles off your prop and shaft. Been there, done that.

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:18:12 -0400, Gogarty
wrote:

The Sand Hole is a water-filled sand pit on Lloydd's Neck at the entrance
to Oyster Bay, Long Island, NY. Inside the Sand Hole there is plenty of
water -- as much as 25 feet at low tide -- so lonmg as one is careful
where one anchors. But the entrance to the place is through two narrow
channels whose sides slope sharply and through which the ebb or flood
flows at as much as five knots. Average tide is about seven feet. The
phrase "local knowledge" was invented for this place. Until recently a
careful sailboat drawing 5 feet or more could get in and out at dead low
tide, some times more easily than at a higher stage of the tide because
you could see where the water was and where it wasn't. But not now. The
two choke points have shoaled. Passage at less than half tide is now
problematical at best.

[snip]

THanks for the report. We have been afraid to try it (7-ft draft) and
are now glad we didn't, although it looks like a nice spot.





Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

"WooWooism lives" Anon grafitto on the base of the Cuttyhunk breakwater light

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

I've been in a few times - always with trouble. (I draw 5 ft). I've
wondered if the row of buoys outside in fact mark the channel, and if
so which side. They appear to be speed limit warnings, but are lined
up as if to mark a channel.

As for anchoring - in my experience, the deep water is foul - trees et
al that can be a real chore to pull up along with your anchor.
--

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

although it looks like a nice spot.

in the past, on weekends, it was chock a block with drunken frat boy types on
powerboats.

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

In article ,
says...


I've been in a few times - always with trouble. (I draw 5 ft). I've
wondered if the row of buoys outside in fact mark the channel, and if
so which side. They appear to be speed limit warnings, but are lined
up as if to mark a channel.

No, they don't mark a channel though they do make aiming points. But one
that was in the outside channel is now gone.

As for anchoring - in my experience, the deep water is foul - trees et
al that can be a real chore to pull up along with your anchor.

Yes, anchoring can be chancey. Took us three tries last weekend. Usually
we grab on the first attempt. Have seen a lot of people pull up trees but
no one so far has retrieved my Cruise'n'Carry outboard that fell off the
stern of the dink some 16 years ago. Have also seen whole rafts break
loose. The place can get crowded on a weekend with lots of motorboats.
But the usual sequence is the power boats, especially the smaller more
raucous ones, come in during the day and leave in the evening. The
sailboats tend to come in in the evening. The power boats are all local,
the sailboats often transient. If the weather is at all cloudy, windy or
rainy, there are few powerboats. We have often been the only boat in the
place at sunset on Sunday, Ah! Tranquility, twenty miles from Manhattan.

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

I guess I have never before heard the Sand Hole referred to as part of the ICW.
Do the barges stop there to load up on fuel and DVD movies?

We left the next morning at dead low tide. We never had a problem before.
But this time we were stuck, first on the inner bar then the outer one.
We spent three hours trying to get out, which had never happened before.

So, if you are going there, beware. And don't even try to enter on an
ebbing tide. You could end up with an excellent opportunity to clear the
barnacles off your prop and shaft. Been there, done that.

Don't feel bad.... the ICW is just as dangerous and problematic.
Locally, the ICW is down to three feet depth in some places (Lockwood
Folly Inlet).

See: http://www.jule-iii.com/icw.shtml

--



Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/ Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillageinn.com/directions.asp Where Southport,NC
is located.
http://www.southharbourvillageinn.linksysnet.com Real Time
Pictures at My Marina
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats
at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

A beautiful spot. I anchored there often when I sailed the Sound but
usually only mid-week. Never had any problems getting in or out but one
day watched an Offshore Sailing School cruiser come in and anchor at
high tide in what I knew was an iffy spot. Six hours later he was hard
aground and over on his side. To give him credit, he looked to all the
world like he had planned it just that way.

Gogarty wrote:
The Sand Hole is a water-filled sand pit on Lloydd's Neck at the entrance
to Oyster Bay, Long Island, NY. Inside the Sand Hole there is plenty of
water -- as much as 25 feet at low tide -- so lonmg as one is careful
where one anchors.

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

The drugs must be affecting your reading skills, jaxie. He didn't say it was
the ICW, he compared it to the ICW.

And you realize, of course, that the ICW does go through Long Island Sound.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
I guess I have never before heard the Sand Hole referred to as part of the
ICW.
Do the barges stop there to load up on fuel and DVD movies?

We left the next morning at dead low tide. We never had a problem before.
But this time we were stuck, first on the inner bar then the outer one.
We spent three hours trying to get out, which had never happened before.

So, if you are going there, beware. And don't even try to enter on an
ebbing tide. You could end up with an excellent opportunity to clear the
barnacles off your prop and shaft. Been there, done that.

Don't feel bad.... the ICW is just as dangerous and problematic.
Locally, the ICW is down to three feet depth in some places (Lockwood
Folly Inlet).

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

He didn't say it was
the ICW, he compared it to the ICW.

why?

And you realize, of course, that the ICW does go through Long Island Sound.

only if you consider LIS to be part of the Hudson River.

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

Actually, I don't think I mentioned the word "barge." Where did you
get that from?

actually, you *did* say -- for god know what fricken reason -- ICW.

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

Are you actually claiming the ICW goes up the Hudson River???

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
He didn't say it was
the ICW, he compared it to the ICW.

why?

And you realize, of course, that the ICW does go through Long Island Sound.

only if you consider LIS to be part of the Hudson River.

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

Are you actually claiming the ICW goes up the Hudson River???

it is on my chart.

Ever seen a chart, jeffies?

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

Are you actually claiming the ICW goes up the Hudson River???

jeffies, here are the bridge clearnances on the ICW up to Troy NY (on the
Hudson River, jeffies,north of Albany, capital of the state of New York and a
three hour drive north by car from New York City, all of which is west of LIS),
according to the USCG.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/g-opt/Clearance.htm

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

Perhaps the several miles from The Narrows to the Battery is considered the
Hudson River, but from there the ICW goes to Long Island Sound and through the
Cape Cod Canal.

So what chart do you claim lists the Hudson River above New York as part of the
ICW?

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Are you actually claiming the ICW goes up the Hudson River???

it is on my chart.

Ever seen a chart, jeffies?

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

already been posted. jeffies might not notice that, but iffins hes askes hes
wifes purdies she be showins him dat stuf..

Perhaps the several miles from The Narrows to the Battery is considered the
Hudson River, but from there the ICW goes to Long Island Sound and through
the
Cape Cod Canal.

So what chart do you claim lists the Hudson River above New York as part of
the
ICW?

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Are you actually claiming the ICW goes up the Hudson River???

it is on my chart.

Ever seen a chart, jeffies?

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

here ya go, jeffies, in casin your wife is not around tonite to explain it to
you.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/g-opt/Clearance.htm

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

What? That's a listing of bridges around the country, not the ICW. Nowhere
does it support your claim. Sober up and try again, jaxie.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Are you actually claiming the ICW goes up the Hudson River???

jeffies, here are the bridge clearnances on the ICW up to Troy NY (on the
Hudson River, jeffies,north of Albany, capital of the state of New York and a
three hour drive north by car from New York City, all of which is west of
LIS),
according to the USCG.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/g-opt/Clearance.htm

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

In article ,
says...


The drugs must be affecting your reading skills, jaxie. He didn't say it was
the ICW, he compared it to the ICW.

And you realize, of course, that the ICW does go through Long Island Sound.

And the Sand Hole is a stop for boats transiting the Sound.

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

jeffies, put your reading glasses on. better yet, ask your wife to read it to
you.

What? That's a listing of bridges around the country, not the ICW. Nowhere
does it support your claim. Sober up and try again, jaxie.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Are you actually claiming the ICW goes up the Hudson River???

jeffies, here are the bridge clearnances on the ICW up to Troy NY (on the
Hudson River, jeffies,north of Albany, capital of the state of New York and
a
three hour drive north by car from New York City, all of which is west of
LIS),
according to the USCG.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/g-opt/Clearance.htm

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

And how does this support your claim? Nowhere does it say the Hudson River is
part of the ICW.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
here ya go, jeffies, in casin your wife is not around tonite to explain it to
you.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/g-opt/Clearance.htm

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

And the Sand Hole is a stop for boats transiting the Sound.


no, it isn't. It is a weekend stopping off point for drunken frat boys in
powerboats. a stop for those "transiting the Sound" is City Island, Port
Washington, Oyster Bay, Oyster Bay West Harbor (both near Sand Hole),
Northport, Port Jeff and **maybe** Matituck Inlet, plus all those rocky,
exposed anchorages on the CT shore.

Any transits figuring to use Sand Hole at a stop point has rocks for brains.

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

You're losing the last portion of your mind jaxie. Or are you also claiming the
Connecticut River and the Kennebec and Penobscot are part of the ICW? This is a
listing of a variety of bridges, not just the ICW.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, put your reading glasses on. better yet, ask your wife to read it to
you.

What? That's a listing of bridges around the country, not the ICW. Nowhere
does it support your claim. Sober up and try again, jaxie.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Are you actually claiming the ICW goes up the Hudson River???

jeffies, here are the bridge clearnances on the ICW up to Troy NY (on the
Hudson River, jeffies,north of Albany, capital of the state of New York and
a
three hour drive north by car from New York City, all of which is west of
LIS),
according to the USCG.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/g-opt/Clearance.htm

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

Subject: The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 08/11/2004 17:39 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

He didn't say it was
the ICW, he compared it to the ICW.

why?

And you realize, of course, that the ICW does go through Long Island Sound.

only if you consider LIS to be part of the Hudson River.


Cripes, here we go again with another one of Doodles definition rants.

Shen

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

it is the output of "ICW" "Albany".

jeffies, the ICW, or actually known as "Atantic Intercoastal Waterway", runs to
Troy NY.

If one wishes to depart the AICW at **Upper** NY Harbor to enter Long Island
Sound and then on northward, one is free to do so.

Just as one is free to depart the AICW at Charleston SC to go to Bermuda.

btw, LOTS of barges anchored in the Sand Hole waiting for the latest DVDs,
right?

jeffies, you are a piece of work.

And how does this support your claim? Nowhere does it say the Hudson River
is
part of the ICW.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
here ya go, jeffies, in casin your wife is not around tonite to explain it
to
you.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/g-opt/Clearance.htm

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

come on, shen, you don't know what an anchor is. stay out of this discussion.
jeffies is tryin' to convince us that barges transiting LIS stop in the Sand
Hole for diesel fuel and the latest DVDs.

He didn't say it was
the ICW, he compared it to the ICW.

why?

And you realize, of course, that the ICW does go through Long Island Sound.

only if you consider LIS to be part of the Hudson River.


Cripes, here we go again with another one of Doodles definition rants.

Shen

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

JAXAshby wrote:
it is the output of "ICW" "Albany".

jeffies, the ICW, or actually known as "Atantic Intercoastal Waterway", runs to
Troy NY.

If one wishes to depart the AICW at **Upper** NY Harbor to enter Long Island
Sound and then on northward, one is free to do so.

Just as one is free to depart the AICW at Charleston SC to go to Bermuda.

btw, LOTS of barges anchored in the Sand Hole waiting for the latest DVDs,
right?

jeffies, you are a piece of work.

Ahhhhh Jeff, there's yer problem! Ole "doodles" (LOL I like that, Shen,
fit's jaxass well) is talking about the INTERcoastal waterway, whereas
you are discussing the INTRAcoastal waterway.
Just as a point of interest, Bowditch claims (at least my edition) that
the intracoastal waterway starts at Manasquan Inlet and runs to the
Mexican border. However, many carry it further North to Cape Ann (my
words, the last sentence)

otn

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

Subject: The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 08/11/2004 19:38 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

come on, shen, you don't know what an anchor is. stay out of this
discussion.
jeffies is tryin' to convince us that barges transiting LIS stop in the Sand
Hole for diesel fuel and the latest DVDs.


ROFL .... and here I thought you were tryin to enlighten everyone about where
the ICW is.
ROFL again ....doodles, you are the only one mentioning anything about barges
..... phew hitt'n the meds a wee tad hard, tonight, aren't we?

Shen

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

In article ,
says...


it is the output of "ICW" "Albany".

jeffies, the ICW, or actually known as "Atantic Intercoastal Waterway", runs
to
Troy NY.

Actually, it's "Intracoastal."

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

In article ,
says...


come on, shen, you don't know what an anchor is. stay out of this discussion.
jeffies is tryin' to convince us that barges transiting LIS stop in the Sand
Hole for diesel fuel and the latest DVDs.

He said nothing of the sort. You guys really have too much time on your hands.

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

In article ,
says...


And the Sand Hole is a stop for boats transiting the Sound.


no, it isn't. It is a weekend stopping off point for drunken frat boys in
powerboats. a stop for those "transiting the Sound" is City Island, Port
Washington, Oyster Bay, Oyster Bay West Harbor (both near Sand Hole),
Northport, Port Jeff and **maybe** Matituck Inlet, plus all those rocky,
exposed anchorages on the CT shore.

Any transits figuring to use Sand Hole at a stop point has rocks for brains.

You seem to be in a really bad mood today. Transients do indeed stop at the
Sand Hole. Also, your characterization of the usual, crowd there as "drunken
frat boys" is way off the mark.

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

only for those who can spel kerrickly. :-)

it is the output of "ICW" "Albany".

jeffies, the ICW, or actually known as "Atantic Intercoastal Waterway", runs

to
Troy NY.

Actually, it's "Intracoastal."

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

your characterization of the usual, crowd there as "drunken
frat boys" is way off the mark.

you have been there, what once?

Or, do *you* consider a 12 pack of beer a day as "normal", and anyone over 25
to be an "old fart"?

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

You're the piece of work, jaxie; you don't even know what ICW stands for! You
still haven't provided a reference to back up your claim that Troy is on the
ICW.

Actually, finding an "official reference" for the ICW north of New Jersey is
hard, since the government is trying to disown responsibility for as much of it
as possible. However, there are numerous other references to ICW starting in
Boston and going south through the Cape Cod Canal. For instance, the Britannica
entry for Massachusetts Bay:


"The Atlantic Intracoastal Waterway enters the bay through the Cape Cod Canal
and reaches its northernmost point at Boston."
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article...ery=cape%20ann

The Army Corps of Engineers, on their educational site, backs this up:
"The Atlantic Intracoastal Waterway consists of two inland water routes
approximately paralleling the Atlantic coast between Boston, Massachusetts and
Key West, Florida."
http://education.usace.army.mil/navi...hisls2lv2.html

I guess we'll have to add this to the other geographical "jaxisms," like
"Manhattan is an island in the Atlantic"

or about the New York Canal System:
"180 miles up the Hudson River to Troy NY" [actual about 150 statute mile]

"then 524 miles through the Erie Canal to Buffalo" [actual 343]




"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
it is the output of "ICW" "Albany".

jeffies, the ICW, or actually known as "Atantic Intercoastal Waterway", runs
to
Troy NY.

If one wishes to depart the AICW at **Upper** NY Harbor to enter Long Island
Sound and then on northward, one is free to do so.

Just as one is free to depart the AICW at Charleston SC to go to Bermuda.

btw, LOTS of barges anchored in the Sand Hole waiting for the latest DVDs,
right?

jeffies, you are a piece of work.

And how does this support your claim? Nowhere does it say the Hudson River
is
part of the ICW.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
here ya go, jeffies, in casin your wife is not around tonite to explain it
to
you.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/g-opt/Clearance.htm

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

In article ,
says...


your characterization of the usual, crowd there as "drunken
frat boys" is way off the mark.

you have been there, what once?

For nearly twenty years, at least once a month and often far more frequently on
two different sailboats.

Or, do *you* consider a 12 pack of beer a day as "normal"

Only a 12-pack? Do you pay that much attention to what people on other boats
are doing?

, and anyone over 25
to be an "old fart"?

Well, no. I'm 73 and certainly do not consider myself an old fart. I like
parties and people who party even if we are content to merely sit on our boat
cleaning out the spirit locker. In the old days it was even better, until the
place became part of a NY State park, big signs saying "NO!" went up all over
the place and bird huggers started patrolling the place to keep people and dogs
off the beach. In those days people would set up tent cities on the beach, have
huge bonfires and occasional fireworks and it was indeed wall-to-wall boats
with dragging, fouled anchors and all that. Used to be able to get a bushel of
oysters off the beach in fifteen minutes. But the bonfires, tent cities and the
oysters are gone leaving us nought but tepid silence and clams for raucous
partying. Even the helicopter that used to operate from the big house next to
the water has gone away.

But you do strike me as querulous old fart.

And in those nearly twenty years, I have seen and spoken many and many a
transient yacht headed north or south. Have given some of them charts and other
assistance.

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

Anyway, I didn't mean to start a flame war. The original point was to let
people know the place has shoaled at its two entrances.

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 07:02:35 -0400, Gogarty
wrote:

In article ,
says...


And the Sand Hole is a stop for boats transiting the Sound.


no, it isn't. It is a weekend stopping off point for drunken frat boys in
powerboats. a stop for those "transiting the Sound" is City Island, Port
Washington, Oyster Bay, Oyster Bay West Harbor (both near Sand Hole),
Northport, Port Jeff and **maybe** Matituck Inlet, plus all those rocky,
exposed anchorages on the CT shore.

Any transits figuring to use Sand Hole at a stop point has rocks for brains.

You seem to be in a really bad mood today. Transients do indeed stop at the
Sand Hole. Also, your characterization of the usual, crowd there as "drunken
frat boys" is way off the mark.

That list omits Eatons Neck, [barely] accessible at all tides to our
7-ft draft. It also has power boats in the day time, although none I
would describe as "drunken frat boys."

The only disturbance at night is the CG station, and they don't make a
lot of noise.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Curse thee, thou quadrant. No longer will I guide my earthly way by thee." Capt. Ahab

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

In article ,
says...



That list omits Eatons Neck, [barely] accessible at all tides to our
7-ft draft. It also has power boats in the day time, although none I
would describe as "drunken frat boys."

Only went in to that Eaton's Neck hole once. Didn't like it. Struck me as
spooky.

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:24:34 -0400, Gogarty
wrote:

In article ,
says...



That list omits Eatons Neck, [barely] accessible at all tides to our
7-ft draft. It also has power boats in the day time, although none I
would describe as "drunken frat boys."

Only went in to that Eaton's Neck hole once. Didn't like it. Struck me as
spooky.


Yes. What makes it spooky is that you don't hear any motor vehicles or
trains--very unusual on Long Island. That is because the surrounding
land is a nature preserve. There actually is a road to the CG station
on the other side of the hill, but you normally don't hear it.

I like it that way. One of my favorite anchorages in Maine, for
exactly that reason, is the Cow's Yard, at Head Harbor Island in
Maine.

Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Curse thee, thou quadrant. No longer will I guide my earthly way by thee." Capt. Ahab

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

In article ,
says...


Only went in to that Eaton's Neck hole once. Didn't like it. Struck me as
spooky.


Yes. What makes it spooky is that you don't hear any motor vehicles or
trains--very unusual on Long Island. That is because the surrounding
land is a nature preserve. There actually is a road to the CG station
on the other side of the hill, but you normally don't hear it.

The same is true of the Sand Hole. It is part of Caumsett State Park. There is
no road or railroad track within miles. You can only walk in over an ancient
planked path or along the Sound side beach or ge there by boat. When the power
boats go home it is utterly silent but not the least bit spooky.

The Sand Hole -- Oyster Bay
 

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:04:04 -0400, Gogarty
wrote:

In article ,
says...


Only went in to that Eaton's Neck hole once. Didn't like it. Struck me as
spooky.


Yes. What makes it spooky is that you don't hear any motor vehicles or
trains--very unusual on Long Island. That is because the surrounding
land is a nature preserve. There actually is a road to the CG station
on the other side of the hill, but you normally don't hear it.

The same is true of the Sand Hole. It is part of Caumsett State Park. There is
no road or railroad track within miles. You can only walk in over an ancient
planked path or along the Sound side beach or ge there by boat. When the power
boats go home it is utterly silent but not the least bit spooky.

So something else makes Eatons spooky for you? I find it a delightful
spot, especially after the motor boats have gone home.

In any case this thread has made clear that I have no hope of getting
into the Sand Hole with 7-ft draft.




Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Wanting to meet a writer because you like his work is like wanting to meet a duck because you like pate."
Margaret Atwood