Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to
occur.

Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure
gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure
gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when
pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great.

Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT
create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient.

Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no
penetration into soggy laminate.

Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the
moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals.


Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from the
laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.'

There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by
osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the
moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the
soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and
evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until
it reaches acceptable levels.

I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull
with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts.


Wilbur Hubbard

Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote:
Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to
occur.

Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure
gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure
gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when
pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great.

Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT
create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient.

Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no
penetration into soggy laminate.

Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the
moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals.


Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from the
laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.'

There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by
osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the
moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the
soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and
evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until
it reaches acceptable levels.

I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull
with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts.


Wilbur Hubbard




The best way to avoid the osmotic problem is not to buy a used boat that
has it, and to carefully research its appearance in brand names of new
boats.

I loved how those selling boats and boat brokers used to say, and
perhaps still say, "it's just osmotic blistering' it's not a big deal."
Bull****.

Oh...balsa deck underlay. No thanks.

"Harryk" wrote in message
...
Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote:
Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to
occur.

Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure
gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the
pressure
gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when
pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great.

Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT
create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient.

Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no
penetration into soggy laminate.

Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the
moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals.


Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from
the
laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.'

There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not
by
osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the
moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing
the
soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion
and
evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter
until
it reaches acceptable levels.

I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull
with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts.


Wilbur Hubbard




The best way to avoid the osmotic problem is not to buy a used boat that
has it, and to carefully research its appearance in brand names of new
boats.

I loved how those selling boats and boat brokers used to say, and perhaps
still say, "it's just osmotic blistering' it's not a big deal." Bull****.

Oh...balsa deck underlay. No thanks.





Another used boat to avoid is one sold with the caveat - fresh bottom - new
barrier coat. LOL! That means the blisters will be soon popping up AGAIN.
Especially with this new poppycock about spraying the hull a few times to
get rid of the trapped osmotic fluids. ROFLOL!

Wilbur Hubbard

The best way to avoid the osmotic problem is not to buy a used boat that
has it, and to carefully research its appearance in brand names of new
boats.

Its not such a biggy if you have an old boat with 1 1/2 inches of hand
layed glass at the turn of the bilge and twice that PLUS on the way
down to the keel. Think Westsail or Freya
Bob

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 17:32:32 -0400, Harryk
wrote:

Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote:
Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to
occur.

Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure
gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure
gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when
pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great.

Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT
create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient.

Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no
penetration into soggy laminate.

Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the
moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals.


Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from the
laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.'

There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by
osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the
moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the
soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and
evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until
it reaches acceptable levels.

I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull
with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts.


Wilbur Hubbard




The best way to avoid the osmotic problem is not to buy a used boat that
has it, and to carefully research its appearance in brand names of new
boats.

I loved how those selling boats and boat brokers used to say, and
perhaps still say, "it's just osmotic blistering' it's not a big deal."
Bull****.

Oh...balsa deck underlay. No thanks.

Is that what is wrong with Willie-boy? He's got a balsa core and it's
gone all soggy?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 17:32:32 -0400,
wrote:

Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote:
Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to
occur.

Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure
gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure
gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when
pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great.

Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT
create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient.

Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no
penetration into soggy laminate.

Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the
moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals.


Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from the
laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.'

There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by
osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the
moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the
soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and
evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until
it reaches acceptable levels.

I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull
with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts.


Wilbur Hubbard



The best way to avoid the osmotic problem is not to buy a used boat that
has it, and to carefully research its appearance in brand names of new
boats.

I loved how those selling boats and boat brokers used to say, and
perhaps still say, "it's just osmotic blistering' it's not a big deal."
Bull****.

Oh...balsa deck underlay. No thanks.

Is that what is wrong with Willie-boy? He's got a balsa core and it's
gone all soggy?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Perhaps.

I'm amazed balsa is still being used as a coring material in new boats,
even expensive new boats.

On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 07:38:56 -0400, Harryk
wrote:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 17:32:32 -0400,
wrote:

Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote:
Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to
occur.

Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure
gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure
gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when
pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great.

Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT
create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient.

Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no
penetration into soggy laminate.

Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the
moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals.


Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from the
laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.'

There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by
osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the
moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the
soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and
evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until
it reaches acceptable levels.

I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull
with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts.


Wilbur Hubbard



The best way to avoid the osmotic problem is not to buy a used boat that
has it, and to carefully research its appearance in brand names of new
boats.

I loved how those selling boats and boat brokers used to say, and
perhaps still say, "it's just osmotic blistering' it's not a big deal."
Bull****.

Oh...balsa deck underlay. No thanks.

Is that what is wrong with Willie-boy? He's got a balsa core and it's
gone all soggy?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Perhaps.

I'm amazed balsa is still being used as a coring material in new boats,
even expensive new boats.

Cheap.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:56:31 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:



Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to
occur.

Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure
gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure
gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when
pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great.

Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT
create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient.

Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no
penetration into soggy laminate.

Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the
moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals.


Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from the
laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.'

There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by
osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the
moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the
soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and
evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until
it reaches acceptable levels.

I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull
with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts.


Wilbur Hubbard


You are making a fundamental error in assuming that osmosis is what is
happening to a boat hull. It isn't. The hull is absorbing water which
combines with residual chemicals in the laminate and has nothing to do
with a pressure gradient.

You can explain membrane osmosis until the cows come home and you are
still wrong as it is not the same process that causes blisters on a
boat's bottom.

Unfortunately, as is so often the case, you are exhibiting your own
ignorance yet again.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:56:31 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:



Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to
occur.

Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure
gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the
pressure
gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when
pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great.

Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT
create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient.

Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no
penetration into soggy laminate.

Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the
moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals.


Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from
the
laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.'

There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by
osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the
moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the
soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion
and
evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter
until
it reaches acceptable levels.

I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull
with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts.


Wilbur Hubbard


You are making a fundamental error in assuming that osmosis is what is
happening to a boat hull. It isn't. The hull is absorbing water which
combines with residual chemicals in the laminate and has nothing to do
with a pressure gradient.

You can explain membrane osmosis until the cows come home and you are
still wrong as it is not the same process that causes blisters on a
boat's bottom.

Unfortunately, as is so often the case, you are exhibiting your own
ignorance yet again.


Bruce,

You are the one exhibiting ignorance. You seem to be suggesting that the
hull 'absorbing' water is what causes the blisters.

ROFLOL!

That's IMPOSSIBLE. The blisters MUST be caused by higher pressures inside
the laminate than outside the laminate or the blister would not raise its
ugly head against the outside pressure. If all it involved was water
absorption then the pressures would be equalized. The osmosis comes into
play because the higher density of the chemicals in the laminate on one side
of the membrane causes osmotic action between the chemicals and the water
outside. The water passes through the membrane and tries to dilute the
chemicals to the same density as the sea water. This increases the pressure
on the inside of the membrane until a blister pops up. Try to understand
what osmosis actually entails, Rube!

Freaking morons, I have to deal with around here. Absolutely NO concepts of
basic physics. No wonder most all of them have failed as sailors.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:12:06 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:56:31 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:



Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to
occur.

Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure
gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the
pressure
gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when
pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great.

Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT
create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient.

Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no
penetration into soggy laminate.

Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the
moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals.


Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from
the
laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.'

There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by
osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the
moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the
soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion
and
evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter
until
it reaches acceptable levels.

I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull
with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts.


Wilbur Hubbard


You are making a fundamental error in assuming that osmosis is what is
happening to a boat hull. It isn't. The hull is absorbing water which
combines with residual chemicals in the laminate and has nothing to do
with a pressure gradient.

You can explain membrane osmosis until the cows come home and you are
still wrong as it is not the same process that causes blisters on a
boat's bottom.

Unfortunately, as is so often the case, you are exhibiting your own
ignorance yet again.


Bruce,

You are the one exhibiting ignorance. You seem to be suggesting that the
hull 'absorbing' water is what causes the blisters.

ROFLOL!

That's IMPOSSIBLE. The blisters MUST be caused by higher pressures inside
the laminate than outside the laminate or the blister would not raise its
ugly head against the outside pressure. If all it involved was water
absorption then the pressures would be equalized. The osmosis comes into
play because the higher density of the chemicals in the laminate on one side
of the membrane causes osmotic action between the chemicals and the water
outside. The water passes through the membrane and tries to dilute the
chemicals to the same density as the sea water. This increases the pressure
on the inside of the membrane until a blister pops up. Try to understand
what osmosis actually entails, Rube!

Freaking morons, I have to deal with around here. Absolutely NO concepts of
basic physics. No wonder most all of them have failed as sailors.

Wilbur Hubbard


Willie-boy you are not only ignorant of what is called osmosis in
describing boats hulls but you are also proving that you are too
stupid to learn as the information is there, all you've got to do is
read.

I have no intention of providing you with an education, assuming that
you are intelligent enough to learn, but if you google "boat+osmosis"
or any similar words you will find a multitude information.

But I'll give you the first pointer:

try http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/osmosis%20testing.htm

in which the author says: "Polyester resin is hygroscopic, it can
absorb water. A typical 30' , uncored sailboat hull can absorb about
30lbs. of water or roughly 3% maximum weight of the laminate."
And goes on to explain how this absorbed water combines with partially
cured components of the original laminate to produce a mixture that is
of greater volume then either of the separate components.

In other words polyester laminates aren't waterproof, they absorb
water, just like a stick of wood albeit a bit slower. Ever see
blisters on a wooden hull?

Your description of "osmosis" in boat hulls is ridiculous and totally
wrong as you have interpreted osmosis when applied to a hull as
meaning the same thing as osmosis when applied to filter systems
apparently not knowing that the term as applied to a fiberglass hull
was just another example of people using words that sound impressive
to describe things in order to impress other ignorant people (and in
the process pocket a lot of money).

Try pressurizing your reverse osmosis watermaker - water passes
through the membrane leaving the salt behind just as you describe the
hull. Now raise the pressure ion the other side of the membrane to a
pressure higher then the incoming water (must be higher you say in
order to cause bumps) and what happens? Why, the water flow is
reversed and flows from the outlet side to the inlet side.

If the hull is, as you say, having water rammed up its ass by some
mystical pressure gradient and mixing with chemicals that make it get
bigger then why isn't it simply flowing back to the, now, lower
pressure side.

As I have so often said, Willie-boy, if you'd just keep your mouth
shut people might wonder if you are a fool but you don't. You insist
in speaking and proving for all to see that you are in truth a raving
idiot.

As you say, no concept of basic physics.
(nor anything else)


Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)