"Hoges in WA" wrote in message
...
Hm, no wonder you're sympathetic. Lets try again with another group. Say
a North Korean ship accidentally killed some friends of yours. Would you
then think all Asians are inferior and deserve to be killed? If they did
it on purpose would you *then* think all Asians are inferior and deserve
to be killed?

Stephen

No, you're missing the distinction between racism and bigotry.
I am selective in my prejudices, not racially biased.

I think that's a reasonable argument, but I have a question (or perhaps a
comment). Don't you think we need to struggle against our prejudices? I
think that allows us to make the claim we're fully human.


To illustrate the point:-
Genetically there is no difference between Palestinians and Jews. (the
ones from Israel) They are both Semitic. However, I generally dislike
the Palestinians and generally like the Jews. That demonstrates
prejudice - I prejudge based on my experiences.

To use your point as the illustration... perhaps you don't know Palestinians
as well? Perhaps there's some other factor involved (up to you to share it).
I think we can't get away from have prejudices and bias, but we have a
choice of either fighting against those internal mindsets or "ignore" them.

I didn't comment below, but I think all of your points say about the same
thing...

With respect to Asians, I generally get on well with Chinese, although I
am not all that well disposed to those from Peking and prefer the company
of southerners - again, this is experience as I find the ones from the
north far quicker to espouse Chinese political aims and the ones from the
south more inclined to eat good food and drink heaps. I like the company
of Cantonese, but not party-liners from the capital.

This distinction also applies on Oz, as I generally am not all that well
disposed to people from Canberra (the capital) as they are far more
liberal elitist than the rest of Australia. I am led to believe that you
people have this problem with Washington DC apparatchicks also.

With respect to Africans, I would not countenance giving someone from the
Congo anything other than suspicion, whereas I'd be happy to relax in the
company of someone from Tanganyika. Unfortunately, in that blighted
tribal basket-case, there are very few tribes to like.

It has nothing to do with race and is all about track records, which is
what most people base their prejudices on. Most just don't recognise it
or admit it.

I have a different Jewish experience to Larry's, and I have many Jewish
associates and friends but as I said, I understand why he is of the
opinion he is.

I hope this makes it clearer.








--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Hoges in WA" wrote in message
...
Hm, no wonder you're sympathetic. Lets try again with another group. Say
a North Korean ship accidentally killed some friends of yours. Would you
then think all Asians are inferior and deserve to be killed? If they did
it on purpose would you *then* think all Asians are inferior and deserve
to be killed?

Stephen

No, you're missing the distinction between racism and bigotry.
I am selective in my prejudices, not racially biased.

I think that's a reasonable argument, but I have a question (or perhaps a
comment). Don't you think we need to struggle against our prejudices? I
think that allows us to make the claim we're fully human.

That would be an ideal. On an intellectual level, I get an Arab magazine
bi-monthly and have received it since 1977.

I have learned a lot about Arab culture, history, literature and achievement
(Ibn Battuta was a bit of a cruiser!).

I can distinguish between an educated Arab and a Palestinian thug from a
criminal family. However, until I know where they come from, I treat them
with suspicion and relax once I know.

If I'm wandering along a street in my home town and a group of Australian
Aborigines is coming towards me, male or female, my defences are up at once.
If at all possible, I'll cross the street - I can't afford time off work to
attend court cases.

That's pre-judging or, prejudicial. It's discriminatory, based on hard-won
experience. It's also something I will not stop doing and something I won't
stop complaining about until they begin to behave.

If, on the other hand, I was to encounter a group of aborigines in Cairns,
on the other side of the coutnry, I would be more likely to be interested
rather than suspicious, as most of them have a job and a future to protect.

I think everyone discriminates, even lefties who say they don't - I just
admit I do.

My attitude is roundly criticised by many of our acquaintances (my wife's
really) but mention "American" to an Oz lefty and you get rolled eyes,
sneers etc.

They don't see their discrimination as being as bad as mine because they
think they're entitled to "that" prejudice and I'm not entitled to mine.

Just makes my sniping worse.
Hoges in WA

snipped

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Hoges in WA" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Hoges in WA" wrote in message
...
Hm, no wonder you're sympathetic. Lets try again with another group.
Say a North Korean ship accidentally killed some friends of yours.
Would you then think all Asians are inferior and deserve to be killed?
If they did it on purpose would you *then* think all Asians are
inferior and deserve to be killed?

Stephen

No, you're missing the distinction between racism and bigotry.
I am selective in my prejudices, not racially biased.

I think that's a reasonable argument, but I have a question (or perhaps a
comment). Don't you think we need to struggle against our prejudices? I
think that allows us to make the claim we're fully human.

That would be an ideal. On an intellectual level, I get an Arab magazine
bi-monthly and have received it since 1977.

I think the struggle is the important part. No one can be 100% successful
(unless you're a saint).

We all have deep-seated prejudices, but we can and should strive to overcome
them.


I have learned a lot about Arab culture, history, literature and
achievement (Ibn Battuta was a bit of a cruiser!).

I can distinguish between an educated Arab and a Palestinian thug from a
criminal family. However, until I know where they come from, I treat them
with suspicion and relax once I know.

If I'm wandering along a street in my home town and a group of Australian
Aborigines is coming towards me, male or female, my defences are up at
once. If at all possible, I'll cross the street - I can't afford time off
work to attend court cases.

That's pre-judging or, prejudicial. It's discriminatory, based on
hard-won experience. It's also something I will not stop doing and
something I won't stop complaining about until they begin to behave.

It's also called self-preservation, and I don't see something wrong with it.
The circumstance has a lot to do with it. If you were attending some
professional conference that had a lot of Aborigines in attendance, would
you feel the same way while listening to a lecture? Crime is crime, and it's
reasonable to take precautions, but I would have the same reaction if I were
about to encounter a bunch of skin heads.


If, on the other hand, I was to encounter a group of aborigines in Cairns,
on the other side of the coutnry, I would be more likely to be interested
rather than suspicious, as most of them have a job and a future to
protect.

Right... I didn't read this until after I typed previously. :-)

I think everyone discriminates, even lefties who say they don't - I just
admit I do.

I think anyone who is being intellectually honest would say they either do
or struggle mightily not to.

My attitude is roundly criticised by many of our acquaintances (my wife's
really) but mention "American" to an Oz lefty and you get rolled eyes,
sneers etc.

They don't see their discrimination as being as bad as mine because they
think they're entitled to "that" prejudice and I'm not entitled to mine.

Just makes my sniping worse.

Yes. Entitlement... that's a harbinger of unfettered prejudice.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Hoges in WA" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Hoges in WA" wrote in message
...
Hm, no wonder you're sympathetic. Lets try again with another group.
Say a North Korean ship accidentally killed some friends of yours.
Would you then think all Asians are inferior and deserve to be killed?
If they did it on purpose would you *then* think all Asians are
inferior and deserve to be killed?

Stephen

No, you're missing the distinction between racism and bigotry.
I am selective in my prejudices, not racially biased.

I think that's a reasonable argument, but I have a question (or perhaps
a comment). Don't you think we need to struggle against our prejudices?
I think that allows us to make the claim we're fully human.

That would be an ideal. On an intellectual level, I get an Arab magazine
bi-monthly and have received it since 1977.

I think the struggle is the important part. No one can be 100% successful
(unless you're a saint).

We all have deep-seated prejudices, but we can and should strive to
overcome them.


I have learned a lot about Arab culture, history, literature and
achievement (Ibn Battuta was a bit of a cruiser!).

I can distinguish between an educated Arab and a Palestinian thug from a
criminal family. However, until I know where they come from, I treat
them with suspicion and relax once I know.

If I'm wandering along a street in my home town and a group of Australian
Aborigines is coming towards me, male or female, my defences are up at
once. If at all possible, I'll cross the street - I can't afford time off
work to attend court cases.

That's pre-judging or, prejudicial. It's discriminatory, based on
hard-won experience. It's also something I will not stop doing and
something I won't stop complaining about until they begin to behave.

It's also called self-preservation, and I don't see something wrong with
it. The circumstance has a lot to do with it. If you were attending some
professional conference that had a lot of Aborigines in attendance, would
you feel the same way while listening to a lecture? Crime is crime, and
it's reasonable to take precautions, but I would have the same reaction if
I were about to encounter a bunch of skin heads.


If, on the other hand, I was to encounter a group of aborigines in
Cairns, on the other side of the coutnry, I would be more likely to be
interested rather than suspicious, as most of them have a job and a
future to protect.

Right... I didn't read this until after I typed previously. :-)

I think everyone discriminates, even lefties who say they don't - I just
admit I do.

I think anyone who is being intellectually honest would say they either do
or struggle mightily not to.

My attitude is roundly criticised by many of our acquaintances (my wife's
really) but mention "American" to an Oz lefty and you get rolled eyes,
sneers etc.

They don't see their discrimination as being as bad as mine because they
think they're entitled to "that" prejudice and I'm not entitled to mine.

Just makes my sniping worse.

Yes. Entitlement... that's a harbinger of unfettered prejudice.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com


That last line of yours is probably the universal underlying factor and to
either remove it or minimise it, someone has to move first.
(and like everyone else, I always say - Well, I'm not going to, you do it.)

"Hoges in WA" wrote in message
...

snipped

OT: Are you still getting out this way?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
news
"Hoges in WA" wrote in message
...

snipped

OT: Are you still getting out this way?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com


No entirely sure. Retirement plans very much on track, though.

Turned 58 the other day and on countdown. I have a replacement for me at
work and he's shaping up well. I'll be happy to leave my long-term clients
in his hands when I go.

My wife is still on the Chemo thing for a while (got one today) but she's
very much onside with going as soon as we can. I'm hoping to spend some
time this year on some different boats to widen my ideas a bit.

Guesstimating being in the USA in about Feb '11. Had Florida pretty much
pegged as the place to buy but Roger has suggested a serious look at
freshwater.

If we're coming all that way, I'd like to call in and see you. Wouldn't
mind a look at Candlestick before it goes, too.

"Hoges in WA" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
news
"Hoges in WA" wrote in message
...

snipped

OT: Are you still getting out this way?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com


No entirely sure. Retirement plans very much on track, though.

Turned 58 the other day and on countdown. I have a replacement for me at
work and he's shaping up well. I'll be happy to leave my long-term
clients in his hands when I go.

My wife is still on the Chemo thing for a while (got one today) but she's
very much onside with going as soon as we can. I'm hoping to spend some
time this year on some different boats to widen my ideas a bit.

Guesstimating being in the USA in about Feb '11. Had Florida pretty much
pegged as the place to buy but Roger has suggested a serious look at
freshwater.

If we're coming all that way, I'd like to call in and see you. Wouldn't
mind a look at Candlestick before it goes, too.



So, sorry to hear about your wife... didn't know. I hope she gets better
soon.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
.. .
"Hoges in WA" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
news
"Hoges in WA" wrote in message
...

snipped

OT: Are you still getting out this way?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com


No entirely sure. Retirement plans very much on track, though.

Turned 58 the other day and on countdown. I have a replacement for me at
work and he's shaping up well. I'll be happy to leave my long-term
clients in his hands when I go.

My wife is still on the Chemo thing for a while (got one today) but she's
very much onside with going as soon as we can. I'm hoping to spend some
time this year on some different boats to widen my ideas a bit.

Guesstimating being in the USA in about Feb '11. Had Florida pretty much
pegged as the place to buy but Roger has suggested a serious look at
freshwater.

If we're coming all that way, I'd like to call in and see you. Wouldn't
mind a look at Candlestick before it goes, too.



So, sorry to hear about your wife... didn't know. I hope she gets better
soon.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com


She's on the mend but a bit on the weak side. The good thing (and she says
this herself) is that she now knows that the piece of string isn't as long
as she thought it was, so we go early with less and not wait to make just
that little bit more.
Maybe I could call in on Pineapple too?
Maybe I could get in a niners game?
I'll just keep racking up reasons to visit!

Hoges in WA

On Tue, 02 Mar 2010 08:17:42 GMT, "Hoges in WA"
wrote:

I think everyone discriminates, even lefties who say they don't - I just
admit I do.

Of course. It is deeply imbedded in our genes as a survival
mechanism. To deny that, is to deny the origins and history of
mankind. The challenge is to transcend gut level instinct and not
discriminate when it is inappropriate.

A more subtle issue is whether or not cultural discrimination is
appropriate as opposed to racial discrimination. It is very difficult
to advance your own cultural beliefs, particularly with your children,
without downplaying others.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Mar 2010 08:17:42 GMT, "Hoges in WA"
wrote:

I think everyone discriminates, even lefties who say they don't - I just
admit I do.

Of course. It is deeply imbedded in our genes as a survival
mechanism. To deny that, is to deny the origins and history of
mankind. The challenge is to transcend gut level instinct and not
discriminate when it is inappropriate.

A more subtle issue is whether or not cultural discrimination is
appropriate as opposed to racial discrimination. It is very difficult
to advance your own cultural beliefs, particularly with your children,
without downplaying others.

That's true - you do it in many ways.