I am reposting this from rec.boats because I have thought about it
more and realize it has given me a lot more confidence in my boat.
She can take a lot more than I can and I am very happy about that 2500
lbs of lead ballast.

I managed to talk a friend into going sailing with me to take my 28'
sailboat from Shell Point, Fl to Carabelle, FL, a distance of 36 miles
after my previous two failed attempts where I never even left the
dock.
So, this morning, We left his truck at Carabelle and then drove mine
over to Shell Point. Sailed out with wind from the east of what
seemed to be about 15 kts. In retrospect it was prob more because
with single reefed main and 80% unfurled jib, we were making 6 kts
sailign due south on a beam reach. It is a 10 mile sail from Shell
point due south to the end of Bald Point to the west and then South
Bar sticks out another 7.5 miles with marker 26 marking its southern
end and I have to go around this marker before going west.
After we passed Bald Point, things got a tad more rough but no
biggie. Over the next 7.5 miles it slowly got worse with wind from
SE, still no biggie. Sighted marker 26 from about 2.5 miles 210
degrees from us so headed toward it which was unfortunately parallel
to the now bigger swells, water depth of maybe 35' shoaling to nearly
zero about 2 miles west of us. Swells got bigger and steeper so I'd
head directly toward the bigger ones.. At 2 miles from #26, I
realized things were really nasty although the wind was no stronger
and was a clear blue sky. There were now swells over 6', short and
steep. I have been told I always underestimate swells and I estimate
these were 6'. I figured things would get better after we rounded #26
and we had the bar between us and the east. At a distance of 1.5
miles from #26, I was seeing 7' swells coming in groups where I'd have
to head into the whole group and then during a lull I could head
toward my goal. At a distance of 1 mile from #26, I was getting
scared and thinking "Maybe I should turn back". My friend is not a
sailor so I did not ask his advice. I reasoned that safety behind the
bar was a shorter distance than turning back so kept going. The next
half mile was very chaotic with us looking up toward the bow at a very
steep angle and then on the back side of the wave we'd plunge down and
corkscrew like crazy. Both of us thought the waves were over 7.5'
high At .5 mile from #26, we looked toward it and saw it moving
crazily and large swells even south of it.
Making almost no progress toward safety and with it looking as if
things were getting worse the closer we got to #26, I made the
decision to turn back, waited for a relative calm period and turned
rapidly, made a quick very well controlled jibe and headed back N. By
this time I had furled the jib so were sailing under reefed main alone
and using the engine too for control. The boat was moving VERY FAST.
I got brief look at the gps and saw 7 kts (a 28' sailboat). When I
turned to look back toward the SE, I was shocked to see a wave
towering above me just behind the stern, very steep. It passed under
us and the boat corkscrewed like crazy. I saw a few more of these and
was then too scared to look behind and decided to only look forward.
The boat was then sliding down the steep faces of the waves and the
GPS was reading 8 kts.
Soon, things got better and more controlled and we sailed all the way
back to Shell Point wondering WTF had happed. By the time we were
halfway back to Shell Pt, the wind was very light out of the NE and
almost no swells. By the time I entered the Shell Point channel it
was almost glassy.
After driving back home I think I realize what happened. Water SE of
this bar north of #26 is deeper shoaling quickly to nearly zero depth
just west of our track. This caused the swells to build to be very
high and very steep with little space between them. If we had been a
couple miles further east and had then gone about a couple miles south
of #26, we would probably have had reasonable conditions because this
would put us in deeper water.
At least I found how my boat handles in such weird conditions.
However, everything inside is a mess, even the porta-potti slid out in
the extreme corkscrewing. Too much adventure for one day.

On Oct 30, 12:33*pm, Frogwatch wrote:
I am reposting this from rec.boats because I have thought about it
more and realize it has given me a lot more confidence in my boat.
She can take a lot more than I can and I am very happy about that 2500
lbs of lead ballast.

I managed to talk a friend into going sailing with me to take my 28'
sailboat from Shell Point, Fl to Carabelle, FL, a distance of 36 miles
after my previous two failed attempts where I never even left the
dock.
So, this morning, We left his truck at Carabelle and then drove mine
over to Shell Point. *Sailed out with wind from the east of what
seemed to be about 15 kts. *In retrospect it was prob more because
with single reefed main and 80% unfurled jib, we were making 6 kts
sailign due south on a beam reach. *It is a 10 mile sail from Shell
point due south to the end of Bald Point to the west and then South
Bar sticks out another 7.5 miles with marker 26 marking its southern
end and I have to go around this marker before going west.
After we passed Bald Point, things got a tad more rough but no
biggie. *Over the next 7.5 miles it slowly got worse with wind from
SE, still no biggie. Sighted marker 26 from about 2.5 miles 210
degrees from us so headed toward it which was unfortunately parallel
to the now bigger swells, water depth of maybe 35' shoaling to nearly
zero about 2 miles west of us. *Swells got bigger and steeper so I'd
head directly toward the bigger ones.. *At 2 miles from #26, I
realized things were really nasty although the wind was no stronger
and was a clear blue sky. *There were now swells over 6', short and
steep. *I have been told I always underestimate swells and I estimate
these were 6'. *I figured things would get better after we rounded #26
and we had the bar between us and the east. *At a distance of 1.5
miles from #26, I was seeing 7' swells coming in groups where I'd have
to head into the whole group and then during a lull I could head
toward my goal. *At a distance of 1 mile from #26, I was getting
scared and thinking "Maybe I should turn back". *My friend is not a
sailor so I did not ask his advice. *I reasoned that safety behind the
bar was a shorter distance than turning back so kept going. *The next
half mile was very chaotic with us looking up toward the bow at a very
steep angle and then on the back side of the wave we'd plunge down and
corkscrew like crazy. *Both of us thought the waves were over 7.5'
high *At .5 mile from #26, we looked toward it and saw it moving
crazily and large swells even south of it.
Making almost no progress toward safety and with it looking as if
things were getting worse the closer we got to #26, I made the
decision to turn back, waited for a relative calm period and turned
rapidly, made a quick very well controlled jibe and headed back N. *By
this time I had furled the jib so were sailing under reefed main alone
and using the engine too for control. *The boat was moving VERY FAST.
I got brief look at the gps and saw 7 kts (a 28' sailboat). *When I
turned to look back toward the SE, I was shocked to see a wave
towering above me just behind the stern, very steep. *It passed under
us and the boat corkscrewed like crazy. *I saw a few more of these and
was then too scared to look behind and decided to only look forward.
The boat was then sliding down the steep faces of the waves and the
GPS was reading 8 kts.
Soon, things got better and more controlled and we sailed all the way
back to Shell Point wondering WTF had happed. *By the time we were
halfway back to Shell Pt, the wind was very light out of the NE and
almost no swells. *By the time I entered the Shell Point channel it
was almost glassy.
After driving back home I think I realize what happened. *Water SE of
this bar north of #26 is deeper shoaling quickly to nearly zero depth
just west of our track. *This caused the swells to build to be very
high and very steep with little space between them. *If we had been a
couple miles further east and had then gone about a couple miles south
of #26, we would probably have had reasonable conditions because this
would put us in deeper water.
At least I found how my boat handles in such weird conditions.
However, everything inside is a mess, even the porta-potti slid out in
the extreme corkscrewing. *Too much adventure for one day.

You are correct in the water depth issue regarding wave development.
When I lost RedCloud we had a stern current of 4 kts going directly
against the NW wind and waves. The water depth shallowing for 12,000
to 380 foot coming up on the shelf. This stacked the waves up very
high and spaced them about 8 seconds apart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EomTf3hczco

Combine that with 15 footers that we had for 3 days coming from the NE
we would be hit by peaks at the tip of the chevron wave patterns that
would explode on the boat. So IMO the most dangerious area anywhere
for bad wave developement is in areas of rapid shallowing and opposing
currents. You would not think that at depths of 6000+ feet it would
effect wave development but with the gulf stream plowing up the side
of the continental shelf it's alot of power going against the wind and
waves.

Joe

On Oct 30, 1:53*pm, Joe wrote:
On Oct 30, 12:33*pm, Frogwatch wrote:







I am reposting this from rec.boats because I have thought about it
more and realize it has given me a lot more confidence in my boat.
She can take a lot more than I can and I am very happy about that 2500
lbs of lead ballast.

I managed to talk a friend into going sailing with me to take my 28'
sailboat from Shell Point, Fl to Carabelle, FL, a distance of 36 miles
after my previous two failed attempts where I never even left the
dock.
So, this morning, We left his truck at Carabelle and then drove mine
over to Shell Point. *Sailed out with wind from the east of what
seemed to be about 15 kts. *In retrospect it was prob more because
with single reefed main and 80% unfurled jib, we were making 6 kts
sailign due south on a beam reach. *It is a 10 mile sail from Shell
point due south to the end of Bald Point to the west and then South
Bar sticks out another 7.5 miles with marker 26 marking its southern
end and I have to go around this marker before going west.
After we passed Bald Point, things got a tad more rough but no
biggie. *Over the next 7.5 miles it slowly got worse with wind from
SE, still no biggie. Sighted marker 26 from about 2.5 miles 210
degrees from us so headed toward it which was unfortunately parallel
to the now bigger swells, water depth of maybe 35' shoaling to nearly
zero about 2 miles west of us. *Swells got bigger and steeper so I'd
head directly toward the bigger ones.. *At 2 miles from #26, I
realized things were really nasty although the wind was no stronger
and was a clear blue sky. *There were now swells over 6', short and
steep. *I have been told I always underestimate swells and I estimate
these were 6'. *I figured things would get better after we rounded #26
and we had the bar between us and the east. *At a distance of 1.5
miles from #26, I was seeing 7' swells coming in groups where I'd have
to head into the whole group and then during a lull I could head
toward my goal. *At a distance of 1 mile from #26, I was getting
scared and thinking "Maybe I should turn back". *My friend is not a
sailor so I did not ask his advice. *I reasoned that safety behind the
bar was a shorter distance than turning back so kept going. *The next
half mile was very chaotic with us looking up toward the bow at a very
steep angle and then on the back side of the wave we'd plunge down and
corkscrew like crazy. *Both of us thought the waves were over 7.5'
high *At .5 mile from #26, we looked toward it and saw it moving
crazily and large swells even south of it.
Making almost no progress toward safety and with it looking as if
things were getting worse the closer we got to #26, I made the
decision to turn back, waited for a relative calm period and turned
rapidly, made a quick very well controlled jibe and headed back N. *By
this time I had furled the jib so were sailing under reefed main alone
and using the engine too for control. *The boat was moving VERY FAST.
I got brief look at the gps and saw 7 kts (a 28' sailboat). *When I
turned to look back toward the SE, I was shocked to see a wave
towering above me just behind the stern, very steep. *It passed under
us and the boat corkscrewed like crazy. *I saw a few more of these and
was then too scared to look behind and decided to only look forward.
The boat was then sliding down the steep faces of the waves and the
GPS was reading 8 kts.
Soon, things got better and more controlled and we sailed all the way
back to Shell Point wondering WTF had happed. *By the time we were
halfway back to Shell Pt, the wind was very light out of the NE and
almost no swells. *By the time I entered the Shell Point channel it
was almost glassy.
After driving back home I think I realize what happened. *Water SE of
this bar north of #26 is deeper shoaling quickly to nearly zero depth
just west of our track. *This caused the swells to build to be very
high and very steep with little space between them. *If we had been a
couple miles further east and had then gone about a couple miles south
of #26, we would probably have had reasonable conditions because this
would put us in deeper water.
At least I found how my boat handles in such weird conditions.
However, everything inside is a mess, even the porta-potti slid out in
the extreme corkscrewing. *Too much adventure for one day.

You are correct in the water depth issue regarding wave development.
When I lost RedCloud we had a stern current of 4 kts going directly
against the NW wind and waves. The water depth shallowing for 12,000
to 380 foot coming up on the shelf. This stacked the waves up very
high and spaced them about 8 seconds aparthttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EomTf3hczco

Combine that with 15 footers that we had for 3 days coming from the NE
we would be hit by peaks at the tip of the chevron wave patterns that
would explode on the boat. So IMO the most dangerious area anywhere
for bad wave developement is in areas of rapid shallowing and opposing
currents. You would not think that at depths of 6000+ feet it would
effect wave development but with the gulf stream plowing up the side
of the continental shelf it's alot of power going against the wind and
waves.

Joe

The nearby data buoy gave the period between 7' swells as 4.9 seconds
in water over 68' deep. My water was roughly 28' deep. It was not
till I suddenly realized how bad it looked ahead and how I was not
making any progress toward my goal that I suddenly realized, that "OH,
this is a bad situation to be in".

On Oct 30, 1:14*pm, Frogwatch wrote:
On Oct 30, 1:53*pm, Joe wrote:





On Oct 30, 12:33*pm, Frogwatch wrote:

I am reposting this from rec.boats because I have thought about it
more and realize it has given me a lot more confidence in my boat.
She can take a lot more than I can and I am very happy about that 2500
lbs of lead ballast.

I managed to talk a friend into going sailing with me to take my 28'
sailboat from Shell Point, Fl to Carabelle, FL, a distance of 36 miles
after my previous two failed attempts where I never even left the
dock.
So, this morning, We left his truck at Carabelle and then drove mine
over to Shell Point. *Sailed out with wind from the east of what
seemed to be about 15 kts. *In retrospect it was prob more because
with single reefed main and 80% unfurled jib, we were making 6 kts
sailign due south on a beam reach. *It is a 10 mile sail from Shell
point due south to the end of Bald Point to the west and then South
Bar sticks out another 7.5 miles with marker 26 marking its southern
end and I have to go around this marker before going west.
After we passed Bald Point, things got a tad more rough but no
biggie. *Over the next 7.5 miles it slowly got worse with wind from
SE, still no biggie. Sighted marker 26 from about 2.5 miles 210
degrees from us so headed toward it which was unfortunately parallel
to the now bigger swells, water depth of maybe 35' shoaling to nearly
zero about 2 miles west of us. *Swells got bigger and steeper so I'd
head directly toward the bigger ones.. *At 2 miles from #26, I
realized things were really nasty although the wind was no stronger
and was a clear blue sky. *There were now swells over 6', short and
steep. *I have been told I always underestimate swells and I estimate
these were 6'. *I figured things would get better after we rounded #26
and we had the bar between us and the east. *At a distance of 1.5
miles from #26, I was seeing 7' swells coming in groups where I'd have
to head into the whole group and then during a lull I could head
toward my goal. *At a distance of 1 mile from #26, I was getting
scared and thinking "Maybe I should turn back". *My friend is not a
sailor so I did not ask his advice. *I reasoned that safety behind the
bar was a shorter distance than turning back so kept going. *The next
half mile was very chaotic with us looking up toward the bow at a very
steep angle and then on the back side of the wave we'd plunge down and
corkscrew like crazy. *Both of us thought the waves were over 7.5'
high *At .5 mile from #26, we looked toward it and saw it moving
crazily and large swells even south of it.
Making almost no progress toward safety and with it looking as if
things were getting worse the closer we got to #26, I made the
decision to turn back, waited for a relative calm period and turned
rapidly, made a quick very well controlled jibe and headed back N. *By
this time I had furled the jib so were sailing under reefed main alone
and using the engine too for control. *The boat was moving VERY FAST.
I got brief look at the gps and saw 7 kts (a 28' sailboat). *When I
turned to look back toward the SE, I was shocked to see a wave
towering above me just behind the stern, very steep. *It passed under
us and the boat corkscrewed like crazy. *I saw a few more of these and
was then too scared to look behind and decided to only look forward.
The boat was then sliding down the steep faces of the waves and the
GPS was reading 8 kts.
Soon, things got better and more controlled and we sailed all the way
back to Shell Point wondering WTF had happed. *By the time we were
halfway back to Shell Pt, the wind was very light out of the NE and
almost no swells. *By the time I entered the Shell Point channel it
was almost glassy.
After driving back home I think I realize what happened. *Water SE of
this bar north of #26 is deeper shoaling quickly to nearly zero depth
just west of our track. *This caused the swells to build to be very
high and very steep with little space between them. *If we had been a
couple miles further east and had then gone about a couple miles south
of #26, we would probably have had reasonable conditions because this
would put us in deeper water.
At least I found how my boat handles in such weird conditions.
However, everything inside is a mess, even the porta-potti slid out in
the extreme corkscrewing. *Too much adventure for one day.

You are correct in the water depth issue regarding wave development.
When I lost RedCloud we had a stern current of 4 kts going directly
against the NW wind and waves. The water depth shallowing for 12,000
to 380 foot coming up on the shelf. This stacked the waves up very
high and spaced them about 8 seconds aparthttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EomTf3hczco

Combine that with 15 footers that we had for 3 days coming from the NE
we would be hit by peaks at the tip of the chevron wave patterns that
would explode on the boat. So IMO the most dangerious area anywhere
for bad wave developement is in areas of rapid shallowing and opposing
currents. You would not think that at depths of 6000+ feet it would
effect wave development but with the gulf stream plowing up the side
of the continental shelf it's alot of power going against the wind and
waves.

Joe

The nearby data buoy gave the period between 7' swells as 4.9 seconds
in water over 68' deep. *My water was roughly 28' deep. *It was not
till I suddenly realized how bad it looked ahead and how I was not
making any progress toward my goal that I suddenly realized, that "OH,
this is a bad situation to be in".- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

7 fters ever 5 sec. on your boat would be an interesting ride.
Corkscrewings allright. It's broaching, pitch poling, and rolling that
messes things up.
Nice to have a deep heavy keel huh?

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
...
On Oct 30, 1:14 pm, Frogwatch wrote:
On Oct 30, 1:53 pm, Joe wrote:





On Oct 30, 12:33 pm, Frogwatch wrote:

I am reposting this from rec.boats because I have thought about it
more and realize it has given me a lot more confidence in my boat.
She can take a lot more than I can and I am very happy about that 2500
lbs of lead ballast.

I managed to talk a friend into going sailing with me to take my 28'
sailboat from Shell Point, Fl to Carabelle, FL, a distance of 36 miles
after my previous two failed attempts where I never even left the
dock.
So, this morning, We left his truck at Carabelle and then drove mine
over to Shell Point. Sailed out with wind from the east of what
seemed to be about 15 kts. In retrospect it was prob more because
with single reefed main and 80% unfurled jib, we were making 6 kts
sailign due south on a beam reach. It is a 10 mile sail from Shell
point due south to the end of Bald Point to the west and then South
Bar sticks out another 7.5 miles with marker 26 marking its southern
end and I have to go around this marker before going west.
After we passed Bald Point, things got a tad more rough but no
biggie. Over the next 7.5 miles it slowly got worse with wind from
SE, still no biggie. Sighted marker 26 from about 2.5 miles 210
degrees from us so headed toward it which was unfortunately parallel
to the now bigger swells, water depth of maybe 35' shoaling to nearly
zero about 2 miles west of us. Swells got bigger and steeper so I'd
head directly toward the bigger ones.. At 2 miles from #26, I
realized things were really nasty although the wind was no stronger
and was a clear blue sky. There were now swells over 6', short and
steep. I have been told I always underestimate swells and I estimate
these were 6'. I figured things would get better after we rounded #26
and we had the bar between us and the east. At a distance of 1.5
miles from #26, I was seeing 7' swells coming in groups where I'd have
to head into the whole group and then during a lull I could head
toward my goal. At a distance of 1 mile from #26, I was getting
scared and thinking "Maybe I should turn back". My friend is not a
sailor so I did not ask his advice. I reasoned that safety behind the
bar was a shorter distance than turning back so kept going. The next
half mile was very chaotic with us looking up toward the bow at a very
steep angle and then on the back side of the wave we'd plunge down and
corkscrew like crazy. Both of us thought the waves were over 7.5'
high At .5 mile from #26, we looked toward it and saw it moving
crazily and large swells even south of it.
Making almost no progress toward safety and with it looking as if
things were getting worse the closer we got to #26, I made the
decision to turn back, waited for a relative calm period and turned
rapidly, made a quick very well controlled jibe and headed back N. By
this time I had furled the jib so were sailing under reefed main alone
and using the engine too for control. The boat was moving VERY FAST.
I got brief look at the gps and saw 7 kts (a 28' sailboat). When I
turned to look back toward the SE, I was shocked to see a wave
towering above me just behind the stern, very steep. It passed under
us and the boat corkscrewed like crazy. I saw a few more of these and
was then too scared to look behind and decided to only look forward.
The boat was then sliding down the steep faces of the waves and the
GPS was reading 8 kts.
Soon, things got better and more controlled and we sailed all the way
back to Shell Point wondering WTF had happed. By the time we were
halfway back to Shell Pt, the wind was very light out of the NE and
almost no swells. By the time I entered the Shell Point channel it
was almost glassy.
After driving back home I think I realize what happened. Water SE of
this bar north of #26 is deeper shoaling quickly to nearly zero depth
just west of our track. This caused the swells to build to be very
high and very steep with little space between them. If we had been a
couple miles further east and had then gone about a couple miles south
of #26, we would probably have had reasonable conditions because this
would put us in deeper water.
At least I found how my boat handles in such weird conditions.
However, everything inside is a mess, even the porta-potti slid out in
the extreme corkscrewing. Too much adventure for one day.

You are correct in the water depth issue regarding wave development.
When I lost RedCloud we had a stern current of 4 kts going directly
against the NW wind and waves. The water depth shallowing for 12,000
to 380 foot coming up on the shelf. This stacked the waves up very
high and spaced them about 8 seconds
aparthttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EomTf3hczco

Combine that with 15 footers that we had for 3 days coming from the NE
we would be hit by peaks at the tip of the chevron wave patterns that
would explode on the boat. So IMO the most dangerious area anywhere
for bad wave developement is in areas of rapid shallowing and opposing
currents. You would not think that at depths of 6000+ feet it would
effect wave development but with the gulf stream plowing up the side
of the continental shelf it's alot of power going against the wind and
waves.

Joe

The nearby data buoy gave the period between 7' swells as 4.9 seconds
in water over 68' deep. My water was roughly 28' deep. It was not
till I suddenly realized how bad it looked ahead and how I was not
making any progress toward my goal that I suddenly realized, that "OH,
this is a bad situation to be in".- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

7 fters ever 5 sec. on your boat would be an interesting ride.
Corkscrewings allright. It's broaching, pitch poling, and rolling that
messes things up.
Nice to have a deep heavy keel huh?

Joe



----------------------REPLY-----------------------

Wimps! Way back in 1987, I singlehanded my Coronado 27, (22ft LWL, 2700
pounds ballast) from Panama City sea buoy to Egmont Key sea buoy. In the
teeth of a winter cold front with working jib and single-reefed main.
Besides playing dodge with oil rigs the seas presented little problem. Of
course I was smart enough to go WITH the flow and not against it like some
fool motorhead. Total time from sea buoy to sea buoy was thirty hours.

Do the math. That is AVERAGING well over seven knots. Higher than the
calculated hull speed, btw. Never broached once even though the seas were
on the port quarter. It's a simple matter of knowing how to manage the
tiller.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Oct 30, 1:53 pm, Joe wrote:
On Oct 30, 12:33 pm, Frogwatch wrote:







I am reposting this from rec.boats because I have thought about it
more and realize it has given me a lot more confidence in my boat.
She can take a lot more than I can and I am very happy about that 2500
lbs of lead ballast.

I managed to talk a friend into going sailing with me to take my 28'
sailboat from Shell Point, Fl to Carabelle, FL, a distance of 36 miles
after my previous two failed attempts where I never even left the
dock.
So, this morning, We left his truck at Carabelle and then drove mine
over to Shell Point. Sailed out with wind from the east of what
seemed to be about 15 kts. In retrospect it was prob more because
with single reefed main and 80% unfurled jib, we were making 6 kts
sailign due south on a beam reach. It is a 10 mile sail from Shell
point due south to the end of Bald Point to the west and then South
Bar sticks out another 7.5 miles with marker 26 marking its southern
end and I have to go around this marker before going west.
After we passed Bald Point, things got a tad more rough but no
biggie. Over the next 7.5 miles it slowly got worse with wind from
SE, still no biggie. Sighted marker 26 from about 2.5 miles 210
degrees from us so headed toward it which was unfortunately parallel
to the now bigger swells, water depth of maybe 35' shoaling to nearly
zero about 2 miles west of us. Swells got bigger and steeper so I'd
head directly toward the bigger ones.. At 2 miles from #26, I
realized things were really nasty although the wind was no stronger
and was a clear blue sky. There were now swells over 6', short and
steep. I have been told I always underestimate swells and I estimate
these were 6'. I figured things would get better after we rounded #26
and we had the bar between us and the east. At a distance of 1.5
miles from #26, I was seeing 7' swells coming in groups where I'd have
to head into the whole group and then during a lull I could head
toward my goal. At a distance of 1 mile from #26, I was getting
scared and thinking "Maybe I should turn back". My friend is not a
sailor so I did not ask his advice. I reasoned that safety behind the
bar was a shorter distance than turning back so kept going. The next
half mile was very chaotic with us looking up toward the bow at a very
steep angle and then on the back side of the wave we'd plunge down and
corkscrew like crazy. Both of us thought the waves were over 7.5'
high At .5 mile from #26, we looked toward it and saw it moving
crazily and large swells even south of it.
Making almost no progress toward safety and with it looking as if
things were getting worse the closer we got to #26, I made the
decision to turn back, waited for a relative calm period and turned
rapidly, made a quick very well controlled jibe and headed back N. By
this time I had furled the jib so were sailing under reefed main alone
and using the engine too for control. The boat was moving VERY FAST.
I got brief look at the gps and saw 7 kts (a 28' sailboat). When I
turned to look back toward the SE, I was shocked to see a wave
towering above me just behind the stern, very steep. It passed under
us and the boat corkscrewed like crazy. I saw a few more of these and
was then too scared to look behind and decided to only look forward.
The boat was then sliding down the steep faces of the waves and the
GPS was reading 8 kts.
Soon, things got better and more controlled and we sailed all the way
back to Shell Point wondering WTF had happed. By the time we were
halfway back to Shell Pt, the wind was very light out of the NE and
almost no swells. By the time I entered the Shell Point channel it
was almost glassy.
After driving back home I think I realize what happened. Water SE of
this bar north of #26 is deeper shoaling quickly to nearly zero depth
just west of our track. This caused the swells to build to be very
high and very steep with little space between them. If we had been a
couple miles further east and had then gone about a couple miles south
of #26, we would probably have had reasonable conditions because this
would put us in deeper water.
At least I found how my boat handles in such weird conditions.
However, everything inside is a mess, even the porta-potti slid out in
the extreme corkscrewing. Too much adventure for one day.

You are correct in the water depth issue regarding wave development.
When I lost RedCloud we had a stern current of 4 kts going directly
against the NW wind and waves. The water depth shallowing for 12,000
to 380 foot coming up on the shelf. This stacked the waves up very
high and spaced them about 8 seconds
aparthttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EomTf3hczco

Combine that with 15 footers that we had for 3 days coming from the NE
we would be hit by peaks at the tip of the chevron wave patterns that
would explode on the boat. So IMO the most dangerious area anywhere
for bad wave developement is in areas of rapid shallowing and opposing
currents. You would not think that at depths of 6000+ feet it would
effect wave development but with the gulf stream plowing up the side
of the continental shelf it's alot of power going against the wind and
waves.

Joe

The nearby data buoy gave the period between 7' swells as 4.9 seconds
in water over 68' deep. My water was roughly 28' deep. It was not
till I suddenly realized how bad it looked ahead and how I was not
making any progress toward my goal that I suddenly realized, that "OH,
this is a bad situation to be in".


We experienced very large chop, over 7ft., in 10-20ft of water on the bay.
The intervals were very short, probably about same as what you describe. It
was a rough ride. I broke several luff slugs, but that was about it. Single
reefed with the jib rolled up about 1/2 way from 100%.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Oct 30, 4:30*pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Frogwatch" wrote in message

...
On Oct 30, 1:53 pm, Joe wrote:



On Oct 30, 12:33 pm, Frogwatch wrote:

I am reposting this from rec.boats because I have thought about it
more and realize it has given me a lot more confidence in my boat.
She can take a lot more than I can and I am very happy about that 2500
lbs of lead ballast.

I managed to talk a friend into going sailing with me to take my 28'
sailboat from Shell Point, Fl to Carabelle, FL, a distance of 36 miles
after my previous two failed attempts where I never even left the
dock.
So, this morning, We left his truck at Carabelle and then drove mine
over to Shell Point. Sailed out with wind from the east of what
seemed to be about 15 kts. In retrospect it was prob more because
with single reefed main and 80% unfurled jib, we were making 6 kts
sailign due south on a beam reach. It is a 10 mile sail from Shell
point due south to the end of Bald Point to the west and then South
Bar sticks out another 7.5 miles with marker 26 marking its southern
end and I have to go around this marker before going west.
After we passed Bald Point, things got a tad more rough but no
biggie. Over the next 7.5 miles it slowly got worse with wind from
SE, still no biggie. Sighted marker 26 from about 2.5 miles 210
degrees from us so headed toward it which was unfortunately parallel
to the now bigger swells, water depth of maybe 35' shoaling to nearly
zero about 2 miles west of us. Swells got bigger and steeper so I'd
head directly toward the bigger ones.. At 2 miles from #26, I
realized things were really nasty although the wind was no stronger
and was a clear blue sky. There were now swells over 6', short and
steep. I have been told I always underestimate swells and I estimate
these were 6'. I figured things would get better after we rounded #26
and we had the bar between us and the east. At a distance of 1.5
miles from #26, I was seeing 7' swells coming in groups where I'd have
to head into the whole group and then during a lull I could head
toward my goal. At a distance of 1 mile from #26, I was getting
scared and thinking "Maybe I should turn back". My friend is not a
sailor so I did not ask his advice. I reasoned that safety behind the
bar was a shorter distance than turning back so kept going. The next
half mile was very chaotic with us looking up toward the bow at a very
steep angle and then on the back side of the wave we'd plunge down and
corkscrew like crazy. Both of us thought the waves were over 7.5'
high At .5 mile from #26, we looked toward it and saw it moving
crazily and large swells even south of it.
Making almost no progress toward safety and with it looking as if
things were getting worse the closer we got to #26, I made the
decision to turn back, waited for a relative calm period and turned
rapidly, made a quick very well controlled jibe and headed back N. By
this time I had furled the jib so were sailing under reefed main alone
and using the engine too for control. The boat was moving VERY FAST.
I got brief look at the gps and saw 7 kts (a 28' sailboat). When I
turned to look back toward the SE, I was shocked to see a wave
towering above me just behind the stern, very steep. It passed under
us and the boat corkscrewed like crazy. I saw a few more of these and
was then too scared to look behind and decided to only look forward.
The boat was then sliding down the steep faces of the waves and the
GPS was reading 8 kts.
Soon, things got better and more controlled and we sailed all the way
back to Shell Point wondering WTF had happed. By the time we were
halfway back to Shell Pt, the wind was very light out of the NE and
almost no swells. By the time I entered the Shell Point channel it
was almost glassy.
After driving back home I think I realize what happened. Water SE of
this bar north of #26 is deeper shoaling quickly to nearly zero depth
just west of our track. This caused the swells to build to be very
high and very steep with little space between them. If we had been a
couple miles further east and had then gone about a couple miles south
of #26, we would probably have had reasonable conditions because this
would put us in deeper water.
At least I found how my boat handles in such weird conditions.
However, everything inside is a mess, even the porta-potti slid out in
the extreme corkscrewing. Too much adventure for one day.

You are correct in the water depth issue regarding wave development.
When I lost RedCloud we had a stern current of 4 kts going directly
against the NW wind and waves. The water depth shallowing for 12,000
to 380 foot coming up on the shelf. This stacked the waves up very
high and spaced them about 8 seconds
aparthttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EomTf3hczco

Combine that with 15 footers that we had for 3 days coming from the NE
we would be hit by peaks at the tip of the chevron wave patterns that
would explode on the boat. So IMO the most dangerious area anywhere
for bad wave developement is in areas of rapid shallowing and opposing
currents. You would not think that at depths of 6000+ feet it would
effect wave development but with the gulf stream plowing up the side
of the continental shelf it's alot of power going against the wind and
waves.

Joe
The nearby data buoy gave the period between 7' swells as 4.9 seconds
in water over 68' deep. *My water was roughly 28' deep. *It was not
till I suddenly realized how bad it looked ahead and how I was not
making any progress toward my goal that I suddenly realized, that "OH,
this is a bad situation to be in".

We experienced very large chop, over 7ft., in 10-20ft of water on the bay..
The intervals were very short, probably about same as what you describe. It
was a rough ride. I broke several luff slugs, but that was about it. Single
reefed with the jib rolled up about 1/2 way from 100%.

--
"j" ganz

I sorta wished my keel was deeper cuz I draw only 3'10" having the
extreme shoal draft 8.5M-S2 (necessery in these parts).

Uh.....Wilbur, there have not been any oil rigs off Panama City or
Egmont or any part of the FL coast since about 1985. Any other
misremembered things in there?

I guess now you learned that waves get much scarier when they can 'feel'
the bottom. So conditions far out at sea which aren't much can be
worrisome close in.

I don't think your strategy of not looking around after seeing a wave
which scared you is a tactic that will assure you a long life at sea.
Most of them will 'pass under' the boat as you put it. You may as well
get used to the sight of waves which look taller than you standing on
your deck. This isn't uncommon but likewise, as long as you are afloat,
isn't fatal.

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...

:: Uh.....Wilbur, there have not been any oil rigs off Panama City or
:: Egmont or any part of the FL coast since about 1985. Any other
:: misremembered things in there?

Come to think of it I did misremember. That Panama City starting point was
another trip a year or so later. It was Mobile Bay to Egmont Key where I saw
the oil rigs.

Wilbur Hubbard