|
Capsize Prevention
Of course the first "prevention" is to avoid getting knocked down.
Now you don't have to say that. This discusses a inflated masthead bag for the F-27, and also examples of righting procedures for the F-27. The F-27 is a trimaran, which affords it huge advantages for righting. Maybe my favorite boat. Right up there with the Mac 26X/M, but for different reasons. http://www.f-boat.com/pages/backgrou...zearticle.html Monohulls can be so equipped too, but if hatches aren't sealed, most will just sink like a rock when knocked down unless equipped with positive buoyancy foam. Like the Mac 26M/X is. Sure, some owners have retro-fitted their boats with foam, but those aren't properly engineered and tank-tested. Amateur stuff and probably just more food for Davy Jones. But it's skiffs that got me thinking about this, because open boats are easily swamped, whereupon they are prone to rolling over Sure, a bit of hull sticks out of the water when the boat is constructed with positive buoyancy. Doesn't mean you can roll it back over, or that it's a good platform for survival. The NFL players lost off Tampa a while back are a good example. Four very strong men couldn't right that boat, which was well designed, and level floating when capsized. They tried. Had they been able to, they could have bailed and survived. So for typical open powerboats which might be subject to swamping and capsize, I'm thinking inflatable airbags on both gunnels.. Activation could be manual and/or automatic upon immersion. Keep that boat from rolling over when swamped. The engineering is straightforward and easily accomplished. The system would be lightweight and not affect boat performance. What's the problem? A number. 1. Cost. Might add a couple/few grand to the boat cost. 2. Cosmetics - some bulkiness or bumps on the gunnels. 3. Liability - if you sell it, it has to work - every time. Maybe there's disclaimers for that - I'm not a lawyer. 4. Safety ain't no fun. 5. But the biggest problem by far - I don't have my own boat manufacturing company. Somebody could market these systems to clamp onto the gunnels of any boat. Add some cupholders to ensure sales. Maybe an iPod option. Be creative. --Vic |
Capsize Prevention
On 10/17/09 6:27 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
Of course the first "prevention" is to avoid getting knocked down. Now you don't have to say that. This discusses a inflated masthead bag for the F-27, and also examples of righting procedures for the F-27. The F-27 is a trimaran, which affords it huge advantages for righting. Maybe my favorite boat. Right up there with the Mac 26X/M, but for different reasons. http://www.f-boat.com/pages/backgrou...zearticle.html Monohulls can be so equipped too, but if hatches aren't sealed, most will just sink like a rock when knocked down unless equipped with positive buoyancy foam. Like the Mac 26M/X is. Sure, some owners have retro-fitted their boats with foam, but those aren't properly engineered and tank-tested. Amateur stuff and probably just more food for Davy Jones. But it's skiffs that got me thinking about this, because open boats are easily swamped, whereupon they are prone to rolling over Sure, a bit of hull sticks out of the water when the boat is constructed with positive buoyancy. Doesn't mean you can roll it back over, or that it's a good platform for survival. The NFL players lost off Tampa a while back are a good example. Four very strong men couldn't right that boat, which was well designed, and level floating when capsized. They tried. Had they been able to, they could have bailed and survived. So for typical open powerboats which might be subject to swamping and capsize, I'm thinking inflatable airbags on both gunnels.. Activation could be manual and/or automatic upon immersion. Keep that boat from rolling over when swamped. The engineering is straightforward and easily accomplished. The system would be lightweight and not affect boat performance. What's the problem? A number. 1. Cost. Might add a couple/few grand to the boat cost. 2. Cosmetics - some bulkiness or bumps on the gunnels. 3. Liability - if you sell it, it has to work - every time. Maybe there's disclaimers for that - I'm not a lawyer. 4. Safety ain't no fun. 5. But the biggest problem by far - I don't have my own boat manufacturing company. Somebody could market these systems to clamp onto the gunnels of any boat. Add some cupholders to ensure sales. Maybe an iPod option. Be creative. --Vic How many times have you been aboard an open boat that swamped? In nearly 60 years of boating in small boats, I never have. -- http://tinyurl.com/ykaa4k7 |
Capsize Prevention
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:45:10 -0400, H the K
wrote: How many times have you been aboard an open boat that swamped? In nearly 60 years of boating in small boats, I never have. Once, but I've done very little boating. Weather kicked up quick when fishing with my grand dad. Luckily, he was able to run it ashore and beach it, almost half full of water. It the engine had quit, who knows what would have happened. But boats swamp all the time. It's a leading cause of boat fatality mishaps. Pretty sure anyway. --Vic |
Capsize Prevention
On 10/17/09 6:52 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:45:10 -0400, H the K wrote: How many times have you been aboard an open boat that swamped? In nearly 60 years of boating in small boats, I never have. Once, but I've done very little boating. Weather kicked up quick when fishing with my grand dad. Luckily, he was able to run it ashore and beach it, almost half full of water. It the engine had quit, who knows what would have happened. But boats swamp all the time. It's a leading cause of boat fatality mishaps. Pretty sure anyway. --Vic Well, on smaller round bottom boats, it's not that hard to be capsized. It's harder on 18' and larger wide flat-bottomed or vee or semi vee hulls, but, of course, it's not impossible. Plenty of guys go way out in the ocean with small boats, and have for centuries. I've done it on good days with weather reports and a constant eye on the horizon. On the Bay, which usually only has a constant chop or two-footers, the biggest problem seems to being run down by old farts in monster power cruisers, or hit by sailboaters during the high heat when their captains are semi-comatose. But that's mostly outside of Annapolis harbor. |
Capsize Prevention
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:27:26 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote: Of course the first "prevention" is to avoid getting knocked down. Now you don't have to say that. This discusses a inflated masthead bag for the F-27, and also examples of righting procedures for the F-27. The F-27 is a trimaran, which affords it huge advantages for righting. Maybe my favorite boat. Right up there with the Mac 26X/M, but for different reasons. http://www.f-boat.com/pages/backgrou...zearticle.html Monohulls can be so equipped too, but if hatches aren't sealed, most will just sink like a rock when knocked down unless equipped with positive buoyancy foam. Like the Mac 26M/X is. Sure, some owners have retro-fitted their boats with foam, but those aren't properly engineered and tank-tested. Amateur stuff and probably just more food for Davy Jones. But it's skiffs that got me thinking about this, because open boats are easily swamped, whereupon they are prone to rolling over Sure, a bit of hull sticks out of the water when the boat is constructed with positive buoyancy. Doesn't mean you can roll it back over, or that it's a good platform for survival. The NFL players lost off Tampa a while back are a good example. Four very strong men couldn't right that boat, which was well designed, and level floating when capsized. They tried. Had they been able to, they could have bailed and survived. So for typical open powerboats which might be subject to swamping and capsize, I'm thinking inflatable airbags on both gunnels.. Activation could be manual and/or automatic upon immersion. Keep that boat from rolling over when swamped. The engineering is straightforward and easily accomplished. The system would be lightweight and not affect boat performance. What's the problem? A number. 1. Cost. Might add a couple/few grand to the boat cost. 2. Cosmetics - some bulkiness or bumps on the gunnels. 3. Liability - if you sell it, it has to work - every time. Maybe there's disclaimers for that - I'm not a lawyer. 4. Safety ain't no fun. 5. But the biggest problem by far - I don't have my own boat manufacturing company. Somebody could market these systems to clamp onto the gunnels of any boat. Add some cupholders to ensure sales. Maybe an iPod option. Be creative. --Vic A "knock down" is not necessarily a "capsize". In fact it seldom is and most sail boats will recover from a "knock down" with no action from the helmsman as at high angles of heel the rudder loses effect and normal sail action tends to turn the boat nose into the wind (on a properly rigged boat, that is :-) Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Capsize Prevention
"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message
... On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:27:26 -0500, Vic Smith wrote: Of course the first "prevention" is to avoid getting knocked down. Now you don't have to say that. This discusses a inflated masthead bag for the F-27, and also examples of righting procedures for the F-27. The F-27 is a trimaran, which affords it huge advantages for righting. Maybe my favorite boat. Right up there with the Mac 26X/M, but for different reasons. http://www.f-boat.com/pages/backgrou...zearticle.html Monohulls can be so equipped too, but if hatches aren't sealed, most will just sink like a rock when knocked down unless equipped with positive buoyancy foam. Like the Mac 26M/X is. Sure, some owners have retro-fitted their boats with foam, but those aren't properly engineered and tank-tested. Amateur stuff and probably just more food for Davy Jones. But it's skiffs that got me thinking about this, because open boats are easily swamped, whereupon they are prone to rolling over Sure, a bit of hull sticks out of the water when the boat is constructed with positive buoyancy. Doesn't mean you can roll it back over, or that it's a good platform for survival. The NFL players lost off Tampa a while back are a good example. Four very strong men couldn't right that boat, which was well designed, and level floating when capsized. They tried. Had they been able to, they could have bailed and survived. So for typical open powerboats which might be subject to swamping and capsize, I'm thinking inflatable airbags on both gunnels.. Activation could be manual and/or automatic upon immersion. Keep that boat from rolling over when swamped. The engineering is straightforward and easily accomplished. The system would be lightweight and not affect boat performance. What's the problem? A number. 1. Cost. Might add a couple/few grand to the boat cost. 2. Cosmetics - some bulkiness or bumps on the gunnels. 3. Liability - if you sell it, it has to work - every time. Maybe there's disclaimers for that - I'm not a lawyer. 4. Safety ain't no fun. 5. But the biggest problem by far - I don't have my own boat manufacturing company. Somebody could market these systems to clamp onto the gunnels of any boat. Add some cupholders to ensure sales. Maybe an iPod option. Be creative. --Vic A "knock down" is not necessarily a "capsize". In fact it seldom is and most sail boats will recover from a "knock down" with no action from the helmsman as at high angles of heel the rudder loses effect and normal sail action tends to turn the boat nose into the wind (on a properly rigged boat, that is :-) Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Sure thing... I've touched the main on the water many times years ago. The last time was probably 20 years ago on a Merit. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Capsize Prevention
"H K" wrote in message ... On 10/17/09 6:52 PM, Vic Smith wrote: On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:45:10 -0400, H the K wrote: How many times have you been aboard an open boat that swamped? In nearly 60 years of boating in small boats, I never have. Once, but I've done very little boating. Weather kicked up quick when fishing with my grand dad. Luckily, he was able to run it ashore and beach it, almost half full of water. It the engine had quit, who knows what would have happened. But boats swamp all the time. It's a leading cause of boat fatality mishaps. Pretty sure anyway. --Vic Well, on smaller round bottom boats, it's not that hard to be capsized. It's harder on 18' and larger wide flat-bottomed or vee or semi vee hulls, but, of course, it's not impossible. Plenty of guys go way out in the ocean with small boats, and have for centuries. I've done it on good days with weather reports and a constant eye on the horizon. On the Bay, which usually only has a constant chop or two-footers, the biggest problem seems to being run down by old farts in monster power cruisers, or hit by sailboaters during the high heat when their captains are semi-comatose. But that's mostly outside of Annapolis harbor. Small flat bottom boats flip all the time. Mostly Boston Whalers. They may not sink, but they need hand rails on the bottom. Which SOLAS lifeboats do have. |
Capsize Prevention
"Vic Smith" wrote in message ... Of course the first "prevention" is to avoid getting knocked down. Now you don't have to say that. This discusses a inflated masthead bag for the F-27, and also examples of righting procedures for the F-27. The F-27 is a trimaran, which affords it huge advantages for righting. Maybe my favorite boat. Right up there with the Mac 26X/M, but for different reasons. http://www.f-boat.com/pages/backgrou...zearticle.html Monohulls can be so equipped too, but if hatches aren't sealed, most will just sink like a rock when knocked down unless equipped with positive buoyancy foam. Like the Mac 26M/X is. Sure, some owners have retro-fitted their boats with foam, but those aren't properly engineered and tank-tested. Amateur stuff and probably just more food for Davy Jones. But it's skiffs that got me thinking about this, because open boats are easily swamped, whereupon they are prone to rolling over Sure, a bit of hull sticks out of the water when the boat is constructed with positive buoyancy. Doesn't mean you can roll it back over, or that it's a good platform for survival. The NFL players lost off Tampa a while back are a good example. Four very strong men couldn't right that boat, which was well designed, and level floating when capsized. They tried. Had they been able to, they could have bailed and survived. So for typical open powerboats which might be subject to swamping and capsize, I'm thinking inflatable airbags on both gunnels.. Activation could be manual and/or automatic upon immersion. Keep that boat from rolling over when swamped. The engineering is straightforward and easily accomplished. The system would be lightweight and not affect boat performance. What's the problem? A number. 1. Cost. Might add a couple/few grand to the boat cost. 2. Cosmetics - some bulkiness or bumps on the gunnels. 3. Liability - if you sell it, it has to work - every time. Maybe there's disclaimers for that - I'm not a lawyer. 4. Safety ain't no fun. 5. But the biggest problem by far - I don't have my own boat manufacturing company. Somebody could market these systems to clamp onto the gunnels of any boat. Add some cupholders to ensure sales. Maybe an iPod option. Be creative. --Vic Vic, if you put auto inflating bags on both gunwhales you will enure that you will never get her upright again but she will float nice and high while upside down. The Royal National Lifeboat Institution in Uk used to have boats that were inherently self righting but such a boat does tend to turn over more often than necessary which is a pain even if it rights itself afterwards. Modern lifeboats are not inherently self righting but instead have an automaically inflating buoyancy bag which is centrally mounted in the superstructure so it exerts maximum righting leverage whichever way she turns over. |
Capsize Prevention
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 09:21:53 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote: Vic, if you put auto inflating bags on both gunwhales you will enure that you will never get her upright again but she will float nice and high while upside down. That seems counterintuitive. The gunnel bags would be inflated before the roll over. If the boat is already turtled or rolling past the ability of the bag buoyancy to right it when inflated, it would be as you say. That's a no-no. (-: But in case you're talking about heavy seas flipping a boat, you're absolutely right. Bags on the gunnels are worthless. I was thinking about the more common swamping situations. Anyway, without thorough testing and an understanding of the weight/buoyancy dynamics of a particular boat I wouldn't stand by any contraption I propose. The Royal National Lifeboat Institution in Uk used to have boats that were inherently self righting but such a boat does tend to turn over more often than necessary which is a pain even if it rights itself afterwards. Modern lifeboats are not inherently self righting but instead have an automaically inflating buoyancy bag which is centrally mounted in the superstructure so it exerts maximum righting leverage whichever way she turns over. That's similar to the masthead bags for sailboats. Then the problem becomes righting the boat from a laid down position. I was thinking that a good system for an open boat would prevent the capsize due to swamping, and leave only the bailing. No need to go outside the gunnels. But on that subject of righting, my recollection of righting small boats is that once one gunnel is free of the water, the rest of it goes pretty easy as that side lightens right up as water leaves it. Then the only issues left are not to let inertia roll it again on the other side, and getting it bailed out. The boats I righted always had me standing on the bottom, so muscles can be well-used. Totally different than doing it while afloat, which from what I've seen is darn near impossible without motor power, unless it's a very light weight boat, even with a crew of strong men. If I were in the business of righting small boats, I'd carry a rig to make an A-frame over a capsized hull to get some leverage. Maybe 10-12 foot scaffolding type tubes. One side has a hook to go over the offside gunnel, one side a clamp for the nearside gunnel on a u-joint. Both are joined at the apex, where a line is attached. Should make it a lot easier to roll the boat back over pulling on the nearside, whether with a power boat or men in the water. Man, I wish I lived by that warm Florida water where I could monkey around with this stuff. That would be fun. If the fishing is slow, go play with turtled boats. --Vic |
Capsize Prevention
Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:45:10 -0400, H the K wrote: How many times have you been aboard an open boat that swamped? In nearly 60 years of boating in small boats, I never have. Once, but I've done very little boating. Weather kicked up quick when fishing with my grand dad. Luckily, he was able to run it ashore and beach it, almost half full of water. It the engine had quit, who knows what would have happened. But boats swamp all the time. It's a leading cause of boat fatality mishaps. Pretty sure anyway. --Vic Top causes of accidents: Number of Accidents/Number of Deaths/Number of Injuries 1 Collision with Vessel 1237 60 856 2 Flooding/swamping 475 89 179 3 Collision with Fixed Object 446 53 328 4 Falls Overboard 431 188 257 5 Skier Mishap 383 10 397 However, when we look at "all accident types" we find that capsizes actually have more deaths from a smaller number of (reported) accidents: Accidents/Vessels Involved/Drowning/Other Deaths/Total Deaths All Accident Types 4789 6347 510 199 709 Capsizing 348 359 163 26 189 Carbon Monoxide Exposure 18 19 0 11 11 Collision with Fixed Object 446 501 23 30 53 Collision with Floating Object 59 64 4 1 5 Collision with Vessel 1237 2547 11 49 60 Departed Vessel 87 106 37 0 37 Ejected from Vessel 123 135 11 6 17 Electrocution 0 0 0 0 0 Fall in Vessel 140 147 1 1 2 Fall on Vessel 62 66 0 1 1 Falls Overboard 431 447 157 31 188 Fire/Explosion (fuel) 136 29 0 1 1 Fire/Explosion (non-fuel) 78 164 1 1 2 Fire/Explosion (Unknown origin) 25 84 2 0 2 Flooding/Swamping 475 497 80 9 89 Grounding 322 330 3 10 13 Sinking 16 16 0 2 2 Skier Mishap 383 398 6 4 10 Struck by Vessel 37 51 0 2 2 Struck by Propeller 83 86 0 5 5 Struck Submerged Object 154 154 4 1 5 Other 123 141 4 5 9 Unknown 6 6 3 3 6 So adding all deaths from capsize and Flooding/Swamping we have 278, or 39% of the total of 709. Looking further, of the 359 capsizes, only 5 were by Aux Sail and 22 by Sail only. Also, of the total 709 deaths, 15 were Aux sail, 10 were other sail. One odd item jumped out: of the 15 deaths in Aux Sail, 8 were age 60-69. I guess I should be writing a will. I looked at 2007 to see if this was an anomaly, and then, 4 out of 18 were 60-69. However, leaving out the "unknown age," 10 out of 14 were 50 or older. BTW, Aux Sailboat make up a bit over 1% of the boats with power, so the 15 deaths are more than their share, but its still a small enough number that people will think the are relatively safe. Since most un-powered boats are not registered, its not easy to determine their relative safety. We'd have to look at hours spent in various types of boats, etc. from: http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/...stics_2008.pdf |
Capsize Prevention
|
Capsize Prevention
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:49:56 -0400, Jeff wrote:
Since most un-powered boats are not registered, its not easy to determine their relative safety. We'd have to look at hours spent in various types of boats, etc. There were statistics published sometime in the last couple of years which showed that deaths in canoes and kayaks were way out of proportion to their overall numbers. Canoes and kayaks are usually unregistered of course. |
Capsize Prevention
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 12:46:12 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote: Totally different than doing it while afloat, which from what I've seen is darn near impossible without motor power, unless it's a very light weight boat, even with a crew of strong men. Strong men turn into weak men pretty quickly in cold water. The best way is with a work barge and hoist. After the hull is upright the next challenge is to get the water out before it capsizes again. |
Capsize Prevention
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:17:30 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:49:56 -0400, Jeff wrote: Since most un-powered boats are not registered, its not easy to determine their relative safety. We'd have to look at hours spent in various types of boats, etc. There were statistics published sometime in the last couple of years which showed that deaths in canoes and kayaks were way out of proportion to their overall numbers. Canoes and kayaks are usually unregistered of course. That's not surprising. Seems like an awful lot of people with very little boating knowledge are buying or renting rotomolded Kayaks and blithely heading out into dangerous situations. It's become as big a fad as hula hoops, but a lot more dangerous. |
Capsize Prevention
Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 09:21:53 +0200, "Edgar" wrote: Vic, if you put auto inflating bags on both gunwhales you will enure that you will never get her upright again but she will float nice and high while upside down. That seems counterintuitive. The gunnel bags would be inflated before the roll over. If the boat is already turtled or rolling past the ability of the bag buoyancy to right it when inflated, it would be as you say. That's a no-no. (-: But in case you're talking about heavy seas flipping a boat, you're absolutely right. Bags on the gunnels are worthless. I was thinking about the more common swamping situations. Anyway, without thorough testing and an understanding of the weight/buoyancy dynamics of a particular boat I wouldn't stand by any contraption I propose. The Royal National Lifeboat Institution in Uk used to have boats that were inherently self righting but such a boat does tend to turn over more often than necessary which is a pain even if it rights itself afterwards. Modern lifeboats are not inherently self righting but instead have an automaically inflating buoyancy bag which is centrally mounted in the superstructure so it exerts maximum righting leverage whichever way she turns over. That's similar to the masthead bags for sailboats. Then the problem becomes righting the boat from a laid down position. I was thinking that a good system for an open boat would prevent the capsize due to swamping, and leave only the bailing. No need to go outside the gunnels. But on that subject of righting, my recollection of righting small boats is that once one gunnel is free of the water, the rest of it goes pretty easy as that side lightens right up as water leaves it. Then the only issues left are not to let inertia roll it again on the other side, and getting it bailed out. The boats I righted always had me standing on the bottom, so muscles can be well-used. Totally different than doing it while afloat, which from what I've seen is darn near impossible without motor power, unless it's a very light weight boat, even with a crew of strong men. If I were in the business of righting small boats, I'd carry a rig to make an A-frame over a capsized hull to get some leverage. Maybe 10-12 foot scaffolding type tubes. One side has a hook to go over the offside gunnel, one side a clamp for the nearside gunnel on a u-joint. Both are joined at the apex, where a line is attached. Should make it a lot easier to roll the boat back over pulling on the nearside, whether with a power boat or men in the water. Man, I wish I lived by that warm Florida water where I could monkey around with this stuff. That would be fun. If the fishing is slow, go play with turtled boats. --Vi I hope the obamadytes don't get wind of this thread, if they do some system of righting the boat will be a Federal safety requirment on your next boat, to protect you from yourself. |
Capsize Prevention
|
Capsize Prevention
"Tosk" wrote in message ... That is exactly what that idiot from Canada is trying to do. He has been lobbying our USCG for a long time, and of course if he comes to your news group, you are in trouble... No problem. I'll just lobby Canada to require everyone to wear a safety harness and helmet in the shower, and to ban all staircases. -- KLC Lewis WISCONSIN Where It's So Cool Outside, Nobody Stays Indoors Napping www.KLCLewisStudios.com |
Capsize Prevention
On 10/18/09 3:49 PM, Tosk wrote:
That is exactly what that idiot from Canada is trying to do. He has been lobbying our USCG for a long time, and of course if he comes to your news group, you are in trouble... Don't you have an old rowboat to paint? -- Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives. - John Stuart Mill |
Capsize Prevention
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 12:46:12 -0500, Vic Smith wrote: Totally different than doing it while afloat, which from what I've seen is darn near impossible without motor power, unless it's a very light weight boat, even with a crew of strong men. Strong men turn into weak men pretty quickly in cold water. The best way is with a work barge and hoist. After the hull is upright the next challenge is to get the water out before it capsizes again. A 13' Whaler is near impossible to right without a large ship and a crane. Acquaintance flipped his and a week later when it was found, they had to tow it the 10 miles to the harbor while it was inverted. They could not get enough leverage to right the boat. |
Capsize Prevention
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:56:47 -0500, "KLC Lewis"
wrote: No problem. I'll just lobby Canada to require everyone to wear a safety harness and helmet in the shower, I thought most accidents occurred in the bedroom ? |
Capsize Prevention
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:56:47 -0500, "KLC Lewis" wrote: No problem. I'll just lobby Canada to require everyone to wear a safety harness and helmet in the shower, I thought most accidents occurred in the bedroom ? You've been doing something wrong. ;-) -- KLC Lewis WISCONSIN Where It's So Cool Outside, Nobody Stays Indoors Napping www.KLCLewisStudios.com |
Capsize Prevention
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:56:47 -0500, "KLC Lewis" wrote: No problem. I'll just lobby Canada to require everyone to wear a safety harness and helmet in the shower, I thought most accidents occurred in the bedroom ? Back seat of the car? |
Capsize Prevention
"Vic Smith" wrote in message ... Of course the first "prevention" is to avoid getting knocked down. Now you don't have to say that. This discusses a inflated masthead bag for the F-27, and also examples of righting procedures for the F-27. The F-27 is a trimaran, which affords it huge advantages for righting. Maybe my favorite boat. Right up there with the Mac 26X/M, but for different reasons. http://www.f-boat.com/pages/backgrou...zearticle.html Monohulls can be so equipped too, but if hatches aren't sealed, most will just sink like a rock when knocked down unless equipped with positive buoyancy foam. Like the Mac 26M/X is. Don't know if anyone else has pitched in on this. A ballasted keel mono hull sail boat wants to right itself the more it heels due to the ballast and leverage. Monohulls get knocked down at sea and stand back up on thier own, unlike thier multihull counterparts. I guess if a sailor is real lucky and the hull is lying across the wind and you get a good gust it could push the boat upright but if the sails are still set, it might just keep going over and back into the same predicament. The flotation at the masthead is an idea that Hobie came out with way back when, necessary to keep the boat from "turtling" when the mast fills with water. With a Hobie, turtling would be a huge PITA, with a larger multi nothing short of a crane is going to make things right (or upright haha). There's a thing called "righting moment" when talking about mono hulls which is the point the hull has to attain in order for the boat to recover from turtling. On my Traveler 32' the righting moment was 165 degrees, meaning if the boat completely capsized, it would recover on its own once the hull rotated 16 degrees from exactly upside down. Like when the next wave pushed the boat sideways and the resistance offered by the rig caused the hull to rotate on it's long axis. "Righting moment" is a good button to push when talking to a multi sailor with an attitude. The argument over comfort and speed (multi) vs. crappy weather survivability (mono) is an old one. Thanks for a boat related post Vic! Sure, some owners have retro-fitted their boats with foam, but those aren't properly engineered and tank-tested. Amateur stuff and probably just more food for Davy Jones. But it's skiffs that got me thinking about this, because open boats are easily swamped, whereupon they are prone to rolling over Sure, a bit of hull sticks out of the water when the boat is constructed with positive buoyancy. Doesn't mean you can roll it back over, or that it's a good platform for survival. The NFL players lost off Tampa a while back are a good example. Four very strong men couldn't right that boat, which was well designed, and level floating when capsized. They tried. Had they been able to, they could have bailed and survived. So for typical open powerboats which might be subject to swamping and capsize, I'm thinking inflatable airbags on both gunnels.. Activation could be manual and/or automatic upon immersion. Keep that boat from rolling over when swamped. The engineering is straightforward and easily accomplished. The system would be lightweight and not affect boat performance. What's the problem? A number. 1. Cost. Might add a couple/few grand to the boat cost. 2. Cosmetics - some bulkiness or bumps on the gunnels. 3. Liability - if you sell it, it has to work - every time. Maybe there's disclaimers for that - I'm not a lawyer. 4. Safety ain't no fun. 5. But the biggest problem by far - I don't have my own boat manufacturing company. Somebody could market these systems to clamp onto the gunnels of any boat. Add some cupholders to ensure sales. Maybe an iPod option. Be creative. --Vic |
Capsize Prevention
Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:49:56 -0400, Jeff wrote: Since most un-powered boats are not registered, its not easy to determine their relative safety. We'd have to look at hours spent in various types of boats, etc. There were statistics published sometime in the last couple of years which showed that deaths in canoes and kayaks were way out of proportion to their overall numbers. Canoes and kayaks are usually unregistered of course. I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over 10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last year. So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. |
Capsize Prevention
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:05:02 -0400, "mmc" wrote:
On my Traveler 32' the righting moment was 165 degrees, meaning if the boat completely capsized, it would recover on its own once the hull rotated 16 degrees from exactly upside down. Like when the next wave pushed the boat sideways and the resistance offered by the rig caused the hull to rotate on it's long axis. Once the mast of a monohull gets rotated past horizontal, i.e. well into the water, it usually breaks. |
Capsize Prevention
"Jeff" wrote in message ... I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over 10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last year. So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. |
Capsize Prevention
|
Capsize Prevention
Edgar wrote:
I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. It certainly feels like that would be the case, but in fact its not very common. From a major study: "The extent to which other vessels contribute to canoe and kayak fatalities is harder to determine. In its review of narrative accident data, the ACA found only a few fatal accidents positively identified as involving another vessel." The study goes on to point out that there are a number of fatal capsizes that are un-witnessed and thus we can't know if another vessel is involved. We'll certainly never know how many deaths are caused by wakes from passing boats. But, isn't that simply one of the implied risks of padding? Certainly, no one should paddle a canoe or kayak across a busy harbor without wearing a PFD. The study also points out that the low profile of touring kayaks does not seem to be a factor in accidents or fatalities. In fact, touring kayaks were only involved in a small number of fatalities, about one per year. http://www.americancanoe.org/atf/cf/...7D/SEI_CJ2.pdf About 15 years ago, when kayaking took off, there was a belief amongst paddlers that the rules implied that the "smaller boat always had the right of way." While there is some truth to that in many state rules that cover inland lakes (i.e. not covered by the ColRegs or Inland Rules), that is certainly not the case in most cruising waters. Fortunately, safety education for paddlers now teaches the real rules and the prudence of avoiding busy waters. I would have guessed PWC's often run over canoes, but in fact the generally run over each other: "70% of PWC accidents are collisions and 70% of these are collisions with other PWC." http://www.ridetechnology.com/accident.html |
Capsize Prevention
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 08:05:41 -0400, Jeff wrote:
"70% of PWC accidents are collisions and 70% of these are collisions with other PWC." http://www.ridetechnology.com/accident.html And it's easy to see why when you watch the promotional videos. They are always shown as toys being ridden in circles, in close proximity to each other. People buy them thinking that is normal behavior on the water. |
Capsize Prevention
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:05:02 -0400, "mmc" wrote: On my Traveler 32' the righting moment was 165 degrees, meaning if the boat completely capsized, it would recover on its own once the hull rotated 16 degrees from exactly upside down. Like when the next wave pushed the boat sideways and the resistance offered by the rig caused the hull to rotate on it's long axis. Once the mast of a monohull gets rotated past horizontal, i.e. well into the water, it usually breaks. I'd think that would depend on the mast configuration and rig strength, right? For instance, a Westsail 32 would probably come through something like this in a lot better shape than a Hunter 30. |
Capsize Prevention
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m... "Edgar" wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message ... I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over 10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last year. So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong. Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a chance.... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Capsize Prevention
In article m, mmc wrote:
Don't know if anyone else has pitched in on this. A ballasted keel mono hull sail boat wants to right itself the more it heels due to the ballast and leverage. Monohulls get knocked down at sea and stand back up on thier own, unlike thier multihull counterparts. I guess if a sailor is real lucky and the hull is lying across the wind and you get a good gust it could push the boat upright but if the sails are still set, it might just keep going over and back into the same predicament. Wind doesn't capsize keelboats, waves do. Wind may knock it flat, but nowhere near enough to capsize. Once the boat has been knocked flat the wind no longer has any effect, as soon as the gust has passed the boat comes back up-righ. If a keelboat does capsize, and, as I think you're saying, the wind against the keel is enough to right the boat, all a strong wind can do is knock the boat down again, not capsize it. Of course, anything that's not ballasted is a going to experience things differently. The flotation at the masthead is an idea that Hobie came out with way back when, necessary to keep the boat from "turtling" when the mast fills with water. With a Hobie, turtling would be a huge PITA, with a larger multi nothing short of a crane is going to make things right (or upright haha). There's a thing called "righting moment" when talking about mono hulls which is the point the hull has to attain in order for the boat to recover from turtling. On my Traveler 32' the righting moment was 165 degrees, I think you mean the angle of vanishing stability. The "righting moment" is completely different, it isn't a point, it's a measure of force that is calculated by multiplying the distance between the centre of gravity and centre of buoyancy by the boat mass. Your AVS may be 165 degrees (that's very high). What that means is that when the boat is tipped that far from upright it is as likely to fully capsize as it is likely to come back upright. The correlation of this is that, as you say, tipping from inverted by more than 15 degrees would cause your boat to right. meaning if the boat completely capsized, it would recover on its own once the hull rotated 16 degrees from exactly upside down. Like when the next wave pushed the boat sideways and the resistance offered by the rig caused the hull to rotate on it's long axis. Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea. |
Capsize Prevention
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. |
Capsize Prevention
"Edgar" wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message ... I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over 10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last year. So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong. |
Capsize Prevention
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. Taught by whom? Not out here, as far as I know. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Capsize Prevention
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
... "Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "Bill McKee" wrote in message m... "Edgar" wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message ... I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over 10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last year. So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong. Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a chance.... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is on, your are technically a power boat. You could reach over and put it in gear. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored, you think the court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is running? No dispute from me, except that "technically" you're not a powerboat, unless the engine is engaged in driving the boat. Not sure what the anchor comment has to do with it, since you're not (obviously) underway. If you're unclear about what the rules actually say on the matter, look it up. I'm certain that you're right, however, when it comes to how a court would react. That's a seperate question, which is why I consider myself a powerboat if I have the engine on. It's not technically accurate, but it is accurate in practice. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Capsize Prevention
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 21:01:01 +0100, Justin C
wrote: In article m, mmc wrote: Don't know if anyone else has pitched in on this. A ballasted keel mono hull sail boat wants to right itself the more it heels due to the ballast and leverage. Monohulls get knocked down at sea and stand back up on thier own, unlike thier multihull counterparts. I guess if a sailor is real lucky and the hull is lying across the wind and you get a good gust it could push the boat upright but if the sails are still set, it might just keep going over and back into the same predicament. Wind doesn't capsize keelboats, waves do. Wind may knock it flat, but nowhere near enough to capsize. Once the boat has been knocked flat the wind no longer has any effect, as soon as the gust has passed the boat comes back up-righ. If a keelboat does capsize, and, as I think you're saying, the wind against the keel is enough to right the boat, all a strong wind can do is knock the boat down again, not capsize it. Assuming any sort of sailing yacht, i.e., something other then a day sailor,having an enclosed cabin, a simple wave does not capsize the boat. Breaking waves, yes; or waves that are so high that the boat gains excessive speed on the downward slope so that it digs its nose in the next wave and pitch poles, but even a tsunami wave doesn't appear to roll a sail boat over - at least not in Thailand :-) Of course, anything that's not ballasted is a going to experience things differently. The flotation at the masthead is an idea that Hobie came out with way back when, necessary to keep the boat from "turtling" when the mast fills with water. With a Hobie, turtling would be a huge PITA, with a larger multi nothing short of a crane is going to make things right (or upright haha). There's a thing called "righting moment" when talking about mono hulls which is the point the hull has to attain in order for the boat to recover from turtling. On my Traveler 32' the righting moment was 165 degrees, I think you mean the angle of vanishing stability. The "righting moment" is completely different, it isn't a point, it's a measure of force that is calculated by multiplying the distance between the centre of gravity and centre of buoyancy by the boat mass. Your AVS may be 165 degrees (that's very high). What that means is that when the boat is tipped that far from upright it is as likely to fully capsize as it is likely to come back upright. The correlation of this is that, as you say, tipping from inverted by more than 15 degrees would cause your boat to right. meaning if the boat completely capsized, it would recover on its own once the hull rotated 16 degrees from exactly upside down. Like when the next wave pushed the boat sideways and the resistance offered by the rig caused the hull to rotate on it's long axis. Justin. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Capsize Prevention
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine for charging purposes while racing. I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat. That's the LAW. If I am running my engine in neutral, I am still 100% a sailboat. That is the law. It is the responsibility of all mariners to pay attention to lights and dayshapes. Also bear in mind that a boat that is motoring with it's sails up is somewhat restricted in it's ability to manuver. Power boats can slow, stop, and turn immediately in any direction. A motorsailer, not so much. |
Capsize Prevention
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:47:59 -0700, "Bill McKee"
wrote: "Capt. JG" wrote in message reasolutions... "Bill McKee" wrote in message m... "Edgar" wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message ... I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over 10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last year. So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong. Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a chance.... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is on, your are technically a power boat. You could reach over and put it in gear. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. Sorry, but although that is what YOU think makes sense, it is not the law. If an anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored, you think the court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is running? Absolutely! In court, evidence is debated to arrive at a decision. If I can convince the court that my motor was running but not engaged, then that will be the finding. |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:44 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com