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"Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "Bill McKee" wrote in message m... "Edgar" wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message ... I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over 10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last year. So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong. Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a chance.... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is on, your are technically a power boat. You could reach over and put it in gear. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored, you think the court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is running? |
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wrote in message ... On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine for charging purposes while racing. I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat. That's the LAW. If I am running my engine in neutral, I am still 100% a sailboat. That is the law. It is the responsibility of all mariners to pay attention to lights and dayshapes. Also bear in mind that a boat that is motoring with it's sails up is somewhat restricted in it's ability to manuver. Power boats can slow, stop, and turn immediately in any direction. A motorsailer, not so much. If I see a black sphere in your rigging I will assume that you are anchored, since that's what that shape says. A steaming sailboat requires an inverted cone shape. How many have one aboard; how many actually deploy it? -- KLC Lewis WISCONSIN Where It's So Cool Outside, Nobody Stays Indoors Napping www.KLCLewisStudios.com |
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Bill McKee wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "Bill McKee" wrote in message m... "Edgar" wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message ... I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over 10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last year. So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong. Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a chance.... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is on, your are technically a power boat. Nope, you're a sailboat. You could reach over and put it in gear. Yup. That's the important part: if putting it in gear was all that was need to avoid the accident then the sailboat would have at least partial blame. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored, If its anchored, it isn't "underway" and therefore has no particular obligation as a "power-driven" vessel. (Unless, of course, you anchor in a channel.) you think the court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is running? But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!) |
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"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
et... wrote in message ... On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine for charging purposes while racing. I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat. That's the LAW. If I am running my engine in neutral, I am still 100% a sailboat. That is the law. It is the responsibility of all mariners to pay attention to lights and dayshapes. Also bear in mind that a boat that is motoring with it's sails up is somewhat restricted in it's ability to manuver. Power boats can slow, stop, and turn immediately in any direction. A motorsailer, not so much. If I see a black sphere in your rigging I will assume that you are anchored, since that's what that shape says. A steaming sailboat requires an inverted cone shape. How many have one aboard; how many actually deploy it? I've never heard of the CG enforcing that with sailboats, even though they could if they wanted to. It doesn't apply to my boat, since it's under 12 meters. The rule doesn't say anything about an engine running. Rule 25: (e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. That's not the way I was taught. I was taught that a boat should behave as it appears, which is why a "drift fisherman" is still a powerboat (i.e. underway, not making way). If the sailboat looks like its sailing, the other boat has to treat is though its a sailboat. But the over-riding point is that if an accident could be prevented by simply putting it in gear, the sailboat is obligated to do so. But this brings up the point: if a sailboat has an electric motor, then by your logic its always a powerboat, because you only have to flip a switch to be "engaged." |
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Bill McKee wrote:
"Edgar" wrote in message I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong. I a bit confused. First you're talking about a kayak in the fog that you almost hit because you were going 20 mph when you could hardly see 30 feet. Then you're complaining about the sailboat doing 10-12 (and what kind of sailboat goes 10-12, other than mine?) and doesn't see your wife's kayak. Sounds like anyone who comes near you or your wife is clearly at fault! And what's your point about misbehaving sailboats? Sure there are rude and/or ignorant sailors, but certainly not in greater proportion than power boater (or kayakers, for that matter). Frankly, the sailors and the small boat fisherman annoy me at times, but what really scares me are the sportfishers doing 30 knots in pea soup, because with radar and gps they think they're invincible. |
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On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:29:14 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. Taught by whom? Not out here, as far as I know. Training schools approved and monitored by USCG. |
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"Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "Bill McKee" wrote in message ... "Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "Bill McKee" wrote in message m... "Edgar" wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message ... I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over 10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last year. So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong. Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a chance.... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is on, your are technically a power boat. You could reach over and put it in gear. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored, you think the court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is running? No dispute from me, except that "technically" you're not a powerboat, unless the engine is engaged in driving the boat. Not sure what the anchor comment has to do with it, since you're not (obviously) underway. If you're unclear about what the rules actually say on the matter, look it up. I'm certain that you're right, however, when it comes to how a court would react. That's a seperate question, which is why I consider myself a powerboat if I have the engine on. It's not technically accurate, but it is accurate in practice. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com The motor on, and I bet the law would say power boat. As to day shapes, when was the last time you saw a recreational boater flying them. An anchored power boat is still a power boat in the laws eyes, and you could start the engine and drive out of the way. Same reason the court is going to find against a sailboater with motor running. You could engage motor an drive boat. |
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"Jeff" wrote in message ... Bill McKee wrote: "Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "Bill McKee" wrote in message m... "Edgar" wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message ... I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over 10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last year. So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong. Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a chance.... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is on, your are technically a power boat. Nope, you're a sailboat. You could reach over and put it in gear. Yup. That's the important part: if putting it in gear was all that was need to avoid the accident then the sailboat would have at least partial blame. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored, If its anchored, it isn't "underway" and therefore has no particular obligation as a "power-driven" vessel. (Unless, of course, you anchor in a channel.) you think the court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is running? But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!) Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for any motor driven boat. Someone stated Americas Cup boats could run a generator during a race. Races are controlled areas, and AC boats do not have props as far as I know. Plus there is no right of way in maritime law. |
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"Jeff" wrote in message ... Bill McKee wrote: "Edgar" wrote in message I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong. I a bit confused. First you're talking about a kayak in the fog that you almost hit because you were going 20 mph when you could hardly see 30 feet. Then you're complaining about the sailboat doing 10-12 (and what kind of sailboat goes 10-12, other than mine?) and doesn't see your wife's kayak. Sounds like anyone who comes near you or your wife is clearly at fault! And what's your point about misbehaving sailboats? Sure there are rude and/or ignorant sailors, but certainly not in greater proportion than power boater (or kayakers, for that matter). Frankly, the sailors and the small boat fisherman annoy me at times, but what really scares me are the sportfishers doing 30 knots in pea soup, because with radar and gps they think they're invincible. My wife's kayak was hit a glancing blow by a sail boat without anybody looking where it was going. Guy is in the back doing somethinng, but not piloting the boat. He was not near my wife, he hit the kayak and kept going! I could see other boats in the light fog, but the shell was white, low in the water, and he is wearing white and is crossing the channel. Put up an orange flag, or something to make yourself visable. I could see the other boats a lot further away than a low, white shell. I see where others annoy you as you figure you have the "right of way"over all other type craft. |
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"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:29:14 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. Taught by whom? Not out here, as far as I know. Training schools approved and monitored by USCG. That's too bad. It's not been my experience out here, but I suppose it happens. My understanding is that the approved schools really aren't monitored, certainly not closely. They typically get the curriculum approved, and that's about it beside submitting the completed tests. You're talking about regular sailing schools or license classes (e.g., OUPV, 100GT)? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m... "Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "Bill McKee" wrote in message ... "Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "Bill McKee" wrote in message m... "Edgar" wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message ... I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over 10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last year. So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong. Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a chance.... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is on, your are technically a power boat. You could reach over and put it in gear. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored, you think the court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is running? No dispute from me, except that "technically" you're not a powerboat, unless the engine is engaged in driving the boat. Not sure what the anchor comment has to do with it, since you're not (obviously) underway. If you're unclear about what the rules actually say on the matter, look it up. I'm certain that you're right, however, when it comes to how a court would react. That's a seperate question, which is why I consider myself a powerboat if I have the engine on. It's not technically accurate, but it is accurate in practice. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com The motor on, and I bet the law would say power boat. As to day shapes, when was the last time you saw a recreational boater flying them. An anchored power boat is still a power boat in the laws eyes, and you could start the engine and drive out of the way. Same reason the court is going to find against a sailboater with motor running. You could engage motor an drive boat. I have no idea what the court would say. I suspect there would a lot of arguments for both sides, but the law itself is pretty clear. The vessel must be actually propelled. I've only seen one sailboat with the dayshape in 30 yrs of sailing on the bay. It was way over 12 meters. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 20:40:16 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:29:14 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. Taught by whom? Not out here, as far as I know. Training schools approved and monitored by USCG. That's too bad. It's not been my experience out here, but I suppose it happens. Actually it might be a good thing in terms of educating the chowder heads who go around motoring with their mainsail up, and trying to press for right of way. My understanding is that the approved schools really aren't monitored, certainly not closely. They typically get the curriculum approved, and that's about it beside submitting the completed tests. You're talking about regular sailing schools or license classes (e.g., OUPV, 100GT)? License classes. Several different instructors have told me that admiralty courts have ruled that if propulsion is on and available, then the boat can not be considered under sail for purposes of collision avoidance. |
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"Capt. JG" wrote in message ons... "Bill McKee" wrote in message m... "Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "Bill McKee" wrote in message ... "Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "Bill McKee" wrote in message m... "Edgar" wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message ... I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over 10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last year. So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong. Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a chance.... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is on, your are technically a power boat. You could reach over and put it in gear. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored, you think the court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is running? No dispute from me, except that "technically" you're not a powerboat, unless the engine is engaged in driving the boat. Not sure what the anchor comment has to do with it, since you're not (obviously) underway. If you're unclear about what the rules actually say on the matter, look it up. I'm certain that you're right, however, when it comes to how a court would react. That's a seperate question, which is why I consider myself a powerboat if I have the engine on. It's not technically accurate, but it is accurate in practice. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com The motor on, and I bet the law would say power boat. As to day shapes, when was the last time you saw a recreational boater flying them. An anchored power boat is still a power boat in the laws eyes, and you could start the engine and drive out of the way. Same reason the court is going to find against a sailboater with motor running. You could engage motor an drive boat. I have no idea what the court would say. I suspect there would a lot of arguments for both sides, but the law itself is pretty clear. The vessel must be actually propelled. I've only seen one sailboat with the dayshape in 30 yrs of sailing on the bay. It was way over 12 meters. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com The rule is under power, not propelled. |
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wrote in message ... On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine for charging purposes while racing. I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat. That's the LAW. No it is not. A black sphere signifies that you are at anchor. You should have said 'cone apex downward' |
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Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 20:40:16 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:29:14 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. Taught by whom? Not out here, as far as I know. Training schools approved and monitored by USCG. That's too bad. It's not been my experience out here, but I suppose it happens. Actually it might be a good thing in terms of educating the chowder heads who go around motoring with their mainsail up, and trying to press for right of way. My understanding is that the approved schools really aren't monitored, certainly not closely. They typically get the curriculum approved, and that's about it beside submitting the completed tests. You're talking about regular sailing schools or license classes (e.g., OUPV, 100GT)? License classes. Several different instructors have told me that admiralty courts have ruled that if propulsion is on and available, then the boat can not be considered under sail for purposes of collision avoidance. There's a (slightly) subtle point here. If you had power available and did not use it to avoid a collision, that's your bad. On the other hand, you can't look at a sailboat and say "He looks like a chowderhead, I'll bet he has his motor running" and treat him as a powerboat. |
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Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!) Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for any motor driven boat. Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up? I think its pretty obvious that no powerboater would want to be underway with engine that needs a few minutes before it can be trusted, but in fact many sailboats are in precisely that situation every time they return to port. Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine, an elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in gear without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a long sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with an engine running that was not available for use. Someone stated Americas Cup boats could run a generator during a race. Races are controlled areas, and AC boats do not have props as far as I know. So, are you claiming that running a genset really does make a sailboat a powerboat??? Plus there is no right of way in maritime law. Not strictly true, but since its clear you've never actually read the rules, we'll forgive you for that. And you should note that no one, other than the unnamed straw man, has claimed "right of way;" I only mentioned obligations. And that is at the heart of this. A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling machinery ... is not being used", but it still has an obligation to avoid a collision. |
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On 10/20/09 7:46 AM, Jeff wrote:
Bill McKee wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!) Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for any motor driven boat. Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up? Actually, yes. I see it all the time. |
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On 10/20/09 7:46 AM, Jeff wrote:
Bill McKee wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!) Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for any motor driven boat. Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up? Actually, yes. I see it all the time. |
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On 10/20/09 7:46 AM, Jeff wrote:
Bill McKee wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!) Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for any motor driven boat. Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up? Actually, yes. I see it all the time. |
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"Jeff" wrote in message ... Bill McKee wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!) Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for any motor driven boat. Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up? I think its pretty obvious that no powerboater would want to be underway with engine that needs a few minutes before it can be trusted, but in fact many sailboats are in precisely that situation every time they return to port. Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine, an elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in gear without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a long sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with an engine running that was not available for use. Someone stated Americas Cup boats could run a generator during a race. Races are controlled areas, and AC boats do not have props as far as I know. So, are you claiming that running a genset really does make a sailboat a powerboat??? Plus there is no right of way in maritime law. Not strictly true, but since its clear you've never actually read the rules, we'll forgive you for that. And you should note that no one, other than the unnamed straw man, has claimed "right of way;" I only mentioned obligations. And that is at the heart of this. A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling machinery ... is not being used", but it still has an obligation to avoid a collision. A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling machinery ... is not being used", The motor is part of the propelling machinery. So the machinery is being used. |
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On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:46:42 -0400, Jeff wrote:
So, are you claiming that running a genset really does make a sailboat a powerboat??? A genset is not a propulsion engine obviously. The issue here is not so much with other boats recognizing who is legally under sail, but rather with the behavior of the sail boat. If the skipper of a sailboat with the propulsion engine running continues to behave as the stand-on vessel when otherwise burdened, he is breaking the rules and creating a dangerous situation. This is actually quite logical when you think about it. Otherwise a give-way sailboat under power could simply shift into neutral and reclaim the right-of-way at the last minute. |
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Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message ... Bill McKee wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!) Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for any motor driven boat. Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up? I think its pretty obvious that no powerboater would want to be underway with engine that needs a few minutes before it can be trusted, but in fact many sailboats are in precisely that situation every time they return to port. Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine, an elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in gear without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a long sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with an engine running that was not available for use. Someone stated Americas Cup boats could run a generator during a race. Races are controlled areas, and AC boats do not have props as far as I know. So, are you claiming that running a genset really does make a sailboat a powerboat??? Plus there is no right of way in maritime law. Not strictly true, but since its clear you've never actually read the rules, we'll forgive you for that. And you should note that no one, other than the unnamed straw man, has claimed "right of way;" I only mentioned obligations. And that is at the heart of this. A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling machinery ... is not being used", but it still has an obligation to avoid a collision. A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling machinery ... is not being used", The motor is part of the propelling machinery. So the machinery is being used. Nope. You could also claim that the motor, even not started, is used as as ballast, so its a powerboat. But its still pretty lame. |
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"Jeff" wrote in message
... Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 20:40:16 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:29:14 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. Taught by whom? Not out here, as far as I know. Training schools approved and monitored by USCG. That's too bad. It's not been my experience out here, but I suppose it happens. Actually it might be a good thing in terms of educating the chowder heads who go around motoring with their mainsail up, and trying to press for right of way. My understanding is that the approved schools really aren't monitored, certainly not closely. They typically get the curriculum approved, and that's about it beside submitting the completed tests. You're talking about regular sailing schools or license classes (e.g., OUPV, 100GT)? License classes. Several different instructors have told me that admiralty courts have ruled that if propulsion is on and available, then the boat can not be considered under sail for purposes of collision avoidance. There's a (slightly) subtle point here. If you had power available and did not use it to avoid a collision, that's your bad. On the other hand, you can't look at a sailboat and say "He looks like a chowderhead, I'll bet he has his motor running" and treat him as a powerboat. That would be my take on it. I can't comment on what an admiralty court would or wouldn't do. During regular sailing classes (not licensing classes for which I'm not qualified to teach), I tell them the law (engine engaged) and the practical side (act like it is - these boats don't need to charge batteries while underway) and to use all available means to avoid a collision. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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wrote in message
... On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:58:25 +0200, "Edgar" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine for charging purposes while racing. I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat. That's the LAW. No it is not. A black sphere signifies that you are at anchor. You should have said 'cone apex downward' When I typed that, my brain was idling and not in gear. :- ) Lets's just change it to, "That may look like I'm motoring to you, but if you don't see a day shape or navigation light indicating otherwise, I'm a sailboat. If jon were to find himself in an Admiralty court, and proudly stated that although he was legally sailing, he was acting as if he was a powerboat, I think that would open him up to some unexpected surprises. He would have just admitted that he was not following the colregs. There would be no need to admit it, because I would be acting like a powerboat, and thus be obligated to use the engine to avoid the collision. The requirement to follow the rules ends when doing all one can to avoid a collision. One basic problem with his practice is that it leads to confusion by other vessels, who will be expecting his vessel to act as what it really is. Not much different from the chucklehead on land who trys and give the right of way to others at a 4 way stop, when it is his turn to go. Suddenly, order evaporates and no one knows what to expect or do. This is followed by all cars lurching and stopping as they play guessing games in the intersection. How's that? If someone on another boat sees water flowing out of the back, they would assume that I'm a powerboat. If they know the rules, they would assume I'm likely required to take action, which I would do. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ons... "Bill McKee" wrote in message m... "Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "Bill McKee" wrote in message ... "Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "Bill McKee" wrote in message m... "Edgar" wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message ... I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over 10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last year. So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong. Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a chance.... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is on, your are technically a power boat. You could reach over and put it in gear. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored, you think the court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is running? No dispute from me, except that "technically" you're not a powerboat, unless the engine is engaged in driving the boat. Not sure what the anchor comment has to do with it, since you're not (obviously) underway. If you're unclear about what the rules actually say on the matter, look it up. I'm certain that you're right, however, when it comes to how a court would react. That's a seperate question, which is why I consider myself a powerboat if I have the engine on. It's not technically accurate, but it is accurate in practice. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com The motor on, and I bet the law would say power boat. As to day shapes, when was the last time you saw a recreational boater flying them. An anchored power boat is still a power boat in the laws eyes, and you could start the engine and drive out of the way. Same reason the court is going to find against a sailboater with motor running. You could engage motor an drive boat. I have no idea what the court would say. I suspect there would a lot of arguments for both sides, but the law itself is pretty clear. The vessel must be actually propelled. I've only seen one sailboat with the dayshape in 30 yrs of sailing on the bay. It was way over 12 meters. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com The rule is under power, not propelled. Nope. Look it up. It's propelled. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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"Jeff" wrote in message
... Bill McKee wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!) Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for any motor driven boat. Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up? I think its pretty obvious that no powerboater would want to be underway with engine that needs a few minutes before it can be trusted, but in fact many sailboats are in precisely that situation every time they return to port. Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine, an elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in gear without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a long sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with an engine running that was not available for use. I'm wondering if there was something wrong with it? Diesels don't really need much of a warm up. They like being under load and warm up when under load. I don't warm up my Westerbeke (13). If I'm going to leave the slip, I start, put it in reverse after about 30 seconds, perhaps a minute, and leave. It's never stalled yet. And you should note that no one, other than the unnamed straw man, has claimed "right of way;" I only mentioned obligations. And that is at the heart of this. A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling machinery ... is not being used", but it still has an obligation to avoid a collision. Which is the whole point... avoiding a collision. Thanks! Doesn't matter what anyone calls it... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:46:42 -0400, Jeff wrote: So, are you claiming that running a genset really does make a sailboat a powerboat??? A genset is not a propulsion engine obviously. The issue here is not so much with other boats recognizing who is legally under sail, but rather with the behavior of the sail boat. If the skipper of a sailboat with the propulsion engine running continues to behave as the stand-on vessel when otherwise burdened, he is breaking the rules and creating a dangerous situation. This is actually quite logical when you think about it. Otherwise a give-way sailboat under power could simply shift into neutral and reclaim the right-of-way at the last minute. Exactly. If I have my engine on (don't own a genset), I consider myself a powerboat and act accordingly. No confusion is possible from other boats. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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In article lutions, Capt. JG wrote:
Rule 25: (e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so. Those damn rules should be read, read, and re-read. Something new is uncovered every time. I shan't worry about not displaying my cone in future! Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea. |
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Capt. JG wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message ... Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine, an elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in gear without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a long sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with an engine running that was not available for use. I'm wondering if there was something wrong with it? Diesels don't really need much of a warm up. They like being under load and warm up when under load. I don't warm up my Westerbeke (13). If I'm going to leave the slip, I start, put it in reverse after about 30 seconds, perhaps a minute, and leave. It's never stalled yet. All I can say is that once warmed up, it ran fine. But if I went into gear too soon, it would cough and die. It was, IIRC, a "30" based on a Mitsubishi block. My newer Yanmar 2GM20F's are much better, starting almost instantly, and ready to go in less than a minute (but I still wait 5 minutes, out of habit). I've also known Atomic 4's that had to warm up, but if you knew the engine well you could compensate with the choke. |
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wrote in message
... On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:57:47 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:58:25 +0200, "Edgar" wrote: wrote in message m... On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine for charging purposes while racing. I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat. That's the LAW. No it is not. A black sphere signifies that you are at anchor. You should have said 'cone apex downward' When I typed that, my brain was idling and not in gear. :- ) Lets's just change it to, "That may look like I'm motoring to you, but if you don't see a day shape or navigation light indicating otherwise, I'm a sailboat. If jon were to find himself in an Admiralty court, and proudly stated that although he was legally sailing, he was acting as if he was a powerboat, I think that would open him up to some unexpected surprises. He would have just admitted that he was not following the colregs. There would be no need to admit it, because I would be acting like a powerboat, and thus be obligated to use the engine to avoid the collision. The requirement to follow the rules ends when doing all one can to avoid a collision. Good luck, Buck! The problem here is that by failing to act like the sailboat you are, you may have contributed to creating the situation that now requires drastic emergency manuvers. Other vessels in the situation couldn't predict what you would do, because you weren't being predictible. The reason for the very existence of the colregs is so that everyone is predictable in their actions so conflicts can be avoided. Show proper indicators, and if you are a sailboat, act like one. How that? If I'm acting like a powerboat, I have my engine on, I react to crossing situations, etc., as a powerboat and in fact engage my engine if there's any doubt, how do I "contribute to a situation that now requires drastic emergeny maneuvers"? If water is being discharged in the spot where most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged. One basic problem with his practice is that it leads to confusion by other vessels, who will be expecting his vessel to act as what it really is. Not much different from the chucklehead on land who trys and give the right of way to others at a 4 way stop, when it is his turn to go. Suddenly, order evaporates and no one knows what to expect or do. This is followed by all cars lurching and stopping as they play guessing games in the intersection. How's that? If someone on another boat sees water flowing out of the back, they would assume that I'm a powerboat. If they know the rules, they would assume I'm likely required to take action, which I would do. Who says other boats can even see water coming out the back of your boat? Chances are probably better that they can't in most situations. If they can't see it, and it's not a situation where it's an issue, then it's, um, not an issue. So, I don't see what point you're trying to make. There's nothing in the colregs that says I can't change course, use courtesy, etc., when in non-emergency situations. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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"Jeff" wrote in message
... Capt. JG wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message ... Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine, an elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in gear without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a long sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with an engine running that was not available for use. I'm wondering if there was something wrong with it? Diesels don't really need much of a warm up. They like being under load and warm up when under load. I don't warm up my Westerbeke (13). If I'm going to leave the slip, I start, put it in reverse after about 30 seconds, perhaps a minute, and leave. It's never stalled yet. All I can say is that once warmed up, it ran fine. But if I went into gear too soon, it would cough and die. It was, IIRC, a "30" based on a Mitsubishi block. My newer Yanmar 2GM20F's are much better, starting almost instantly, and ready to go in less than a minute (but I still wait 5 minutes, out of habit). I've also known Atomic 4's that had to warm up, but if you knew the engine well you could compensate with the choke. A4s.... I've always warmed them up. Never had to do that with my Weste. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:09:00 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:57:47 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: wrote in message ... On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:58:25 +0200, "Edgar" wrote: wrote in message om... On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine for charging purposes while racing. I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat. That's the LAW. No it is not. A black sphere signifies that you are at anchor. You should have said 'cone apex downward' When I typed that, my brain was idling and not in gear. :- ) Lets's just change it to, "That may look like I'm motoring to you, but if you don't see a day shape or navigation light indicating otherwise, I'm a sailboat. If jon were to find himself in an Admiralty court, and proudly stated that although he was legally sailing, he was acting as if he was a powerboat, I think that would open him up to some unexpected surprises. He would have just admitted that he was not following the colregs. There would be no need to admit it, because I would be acting like a powerboat, and thus be obligated to use the engine to avoid the collision. The requirement to follow the rules ends when doing all one can to avoid a collision. Good luck, Buck! The problem here is that by failing to act like the sailboat you are, you may have contributed to creating the situation that now requires drastic emergency manuvers. Other vessels in the situation couldn't predict what you would do, because you weren't being predictible. The reason for the very existence of the colregs is so that everyone is predictable in their actions so conflicts can be avoided. Show proper indicators, and if you are a sailboat, act like one. How that? If I'm acting like a powerboat, I have my engine on, I react to crossing situations, etc., as a powerboat and in fact engage my engine if there's any doubt, how do I "contribute to a situation that now requires drastic emergeny maneuvers"? If water is being discharged in the spot where most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged. Okay, now you have officially crossed the line into dopeyland. See ya! |
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"Justin C" wrote in message
... In article lutions, Capt. JG wrote: Rule 25: (e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so. Those damn rules should be read, read, and re-read. Something new is uncovered every time. I shan't worry about not displaying my cone in future! Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea. Yep... I read an abbreviated version of (e) at one point, and I almost bought a day shape. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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wrote in message
... On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:09:00 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:57:47 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: wrote in message m... On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:58:25 +0200, "Edgar" wrote: wrote in message news:4tvpd5h39fd4mbash5csh0tr2lupfqski5@4ax. com... On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine for charging purposes while racing. I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat. That's the LAW. No it is not. A black sphere signifies that you are at anchor. You should have said 'cone apex downward' When I typed that, my brain was idling and not in gear. :- ) Lets's just change it to, "That may look like I'm motoring to you, but if you don't see a day shape or navigation light indicating otherwise, I'm a sailboat. If jon were to find himself in an Admiralty court, and proudly stated that although he was legally sailing, he was acting as if he was a powerboat, I think that would open him up to some unexpected surprises. He would have just admitted that he was not following the colregs. There would be no need to admit it, because I would be acting like a powerboat, and thus be obligated to use the engine to avoid the collision. The requirement to follow the rules ends when doing all one can to avoid a collision. Good luck, Buck! The problem here is that by failing to act like the sailboat you are, you may have contributed to creating the situation that now requires drastic emergency manuvers. Other vessels in the situation couldn't predict what you would do, because you weren't being predictible. The reason for the very existence of the colregs is so that everyone is predictable in their actions so conflicts can be avoided. Show proper indicators, and if you are a sailboat, act like one. How that? If I'm acting like a powerboat, I have my engine on, I react to crossing situations, etc., as a powerboat and in fact engage my engine if there's any doubt, how do I "contribute to a situation that now requires drastic emergeny maneuvers"? If water is being discharged in the spot where most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged. Okay, now you have officially crossed the line into dopeyland. See ya! So, you don't have the ability to respond. Ok, you can have the last word if you want it. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:50:44 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:09:00 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: wrote in message ... On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:57:47 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: wrote in message om... On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:58:25 +0200, "Edgar" wrote: wrote in message news:4tvpd5h39fd4mbash5csh0tr2lupfqski5@4ax .com... On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider myself a powerboat. That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days. Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine for charging purposes while racing. I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat. That's the LAW. No it is not. A black sphere signifies that you are at anchor. You should have said 'cone apex downward' When I typed that, my brain was idling and not in gear. :- ) Lets's just change it to, "That may look like I'm motoring to you, but if you don't see a day shape or navigation light indicating otherwise, I'm a sailboat. If jon were to find himself in an Admiralty court, and proudly stated that although he was legally sailing, he was acting as if he was a powerboat, I think that would open him up to some unexpected surprises. He would have just admitted that he was not following the colregs. There would be no need to admit it, because I would be acting like a powerboat, and thus be obligated to use the engine to avoid the collision. The requirement to follow the rules ends when doing all one can to avoid a collision. Good luck, Buck! The problem here is that by failing to act like the sailboat you are, you may have contributed to creating the situation that now requires drastic emergency manuvers. Other vessels in the situation couldn't predict what you would do, because you weren't being predictible. The reason for the very existence of the colregs is so that everyone is predictable in their actions so conflicts can be avoided. Show proper indicators, and if you are a sailboat, act like one. How that? If I'm acting like a powerboat, I have my engine on, I react to crossing situations, etc., as a powerboat and in fact engage my engine if there's any doubt, how do I "contribute to a situation that now requires drastic emergeny maneuvers"? If water is being discharged in the spot where most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged. Okay, now you have officially crossed the line into dopeyland. See ya! So, you don't have the ability to respond. Ok, you can have the last word if you want it. What a queer response! Really, Jon. Put down the shovel. |
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On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:53:59 -0400, H the K
wrote: On 10/20/09 7:46 AM, Jeff wrote: Bill McKee wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!) Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for any motor driven boat. Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up? Actually, yes. I see it all the time. I had a Mercedes industrial tractor that need half an hour, full throttle under load, to fully warm up. It would produce near full power when pretty cold, fortunately. Casady |
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