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#1
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Buoyancy is Imaginary
On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:40:21 -0400, Jeff wrote:
KLC Lewis wrote: Never argue bouyancy with Roger Long. ;-) Why? I think Roger is making a big deal of a very fine distinction. Its true that an object that is said to be "buoyant" does not generate a force by itself, the force really comes from water pressure which in turn is caused by gravity. But, the force is real and buoyancy is simply a convenient way to aggregate the net pressure on an object. If there were no force (regardless of what we call it) holding up a ship, it would sink. There are, of course, imaginary forces, such as Coriolis which appears in non-inertial reference frames, but that is a different thing. There are many words in the English language that aren't proper scientific explanations of a phenomena. Try "beautiful" or "ugly" for two examples. Is the fact that there is no scientific justification for the term "beautiful" reason to stop using it? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
#2
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Buoyancy is Imaginary
On Sep 28, 7:55*pm, Bruce In Bangkok
wrote: On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:40:21 -0400, Jeff wrote: KLC Lewis wrote: Never argue bouyancy with Roger Long. ;-) Why? *I think Roger is making a big deal of a very fine distinction. Its true that an object that is said to be "buoyant" does not generate a force by itself, the force really comes from water pressure which in turn is caused by gravity. *But, the force is real and buoyancy is simply a convenient way to aggregate the net pressure on an object. *If there were no force (regardless of what we call it) holding up a ship, it would sink. There are, of course, imaginary forces, such as Coriolis which appears in non-inertial reference frames, but that is a different thing. There are many words in the English language that aren't proper scientific explanations of a phenomena. Try "beautiful" or "ugly" for two examples. Is the fact that there is no scientific justification for the term "beautiful" *reason to stop using it? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Roger has the same mistaken impression that many people have, that it takes energy to hold an object up against gravity. NO, it takes no energy for a rigid body to hold an object up against gravity. If his son thinks it takes energy for a table to hold a book up, he needs to re-learn physics. If you hold a book out with your arm extended, you ARE using energy because your arm is not a rigid body and you are exerting energy to keep the muscles tensed. This is equivalent to holding something up with a leaky pneumatic cylinder. This is completely different from buoyant forces holding a boat up which takes NO energy. A buoyant situation that would require energy would be an object flating within a container at a constant level where the container has a leak. In that case energy IS required to keep the object at a constant level because you have to pump in liquid to replace that that leaks out. His observation that buoyancy is the result of unbalanced pressure is trivial in some cases and not entirely accurate in others. A floating boat has pressure from below balancing the weight from above and the net buoyant force is simply equal to the weight of water displaced. A balloon floating in air (or water) has no unbalanced pressure and the buoyant force is simply equal to the weight of the medium displaced. A buoyant force is not imaginary simply due to being a "net force". Forces are vector quantities and the total force acting on a body is the vector sum of all forces. |
#3
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Buoyancy is Imaginary
There is no such thing as a rigid support.
The book on the table actually does compress the table an amount equal to it's mass. |
#4
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Buoyancy is Imaginary
On Sep 28, 10:00*pm, cavelamb wrote:
There is no such thing as a rigid support. The book on the table actually does compress the table an amount equal to it's mass. The book does compress the table slightly but once compressed, no moire energy is required to hold up the book. Although I am adamant about buoyancy not requiring energy input, I think Roger may be nearly right about buoyancy being the result of unbalanced pressures even for a balloon floating in air. I think it is related to transfer of momentum of air or water molecules to said balloon being diff tween top and bottom although after a rum n coke it aint too obvious to me. However, consider our balloon as a ping pong ball immersed in a vat of small lead shot. The lead shot are our water molecules. Shake said vat to produce thermal motion and said ping pong ball rises to the top magically. I never did like the semantics of "imaginary forces" because even for such so-called "imaginary forces", they can lead to work being done. Thus the distinction is almost entirely semantics (yeah yeah, I know frames of reference and all). |
#5
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Buoyancy is Imaginary
On Sep 28, 10:00*pm, cavelamb wrote:
There is no such thing as a rigid support. The book on the table actually does compress the table an amount equal to it's mass. BTW Cavelamb, are you a caver? |
#6
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Buoyancy is Imaginary
Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 28, 10:00 pm, cavelamb wrote: There is no such thing as a rigid support. The book on the table actually does compress the table an amount equal to it's mass. Compression is an expression of stored energy. BTW Cavelamb, are you a caver? I've been lost in the dark once or twice. But not for a while now. |
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