On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:11:05 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

Some possible discussion items:

First, let me state that MY WAY is the RIGHT and ONLY WAY...

For me.

YOUR WAY is the RIGHT and ONLY WAY....

For you.

Of course MY WAY and YOUR WAY have to be almost endlessly modified for
an almost endless number of reasons: Money, ability, your/my boat
setup and capacities, etc., etc., etc.

For a bit over 2 years we are a live-aboard, full timer cruiser
couple. The boat is a Pearson Rhodes 41. Not a real roomy 41, she's
long and lean and FAST.

I've lived-aboard and/or extended cruised off and on for a total of
about 8 years.

Having said all that....


- Type of dinghy, dinghy power, dinghy storage.

I much prefer a hard dinghy. We have a Sandpiper 8. Power is usually a
small trolling motor or oars. I just got a 2 HP outboard and will use
it for those longer and hurrier trips. Most of the time it's rowed,
except for those places we have to anchor more than about a tenth of a
mile out. When not used it's on davits.

I tried a Porta-Boat and found it much more trouble than it was worth.
I wound up giving it away.

I've had inflatables and my only grip is they really don't row too
well and can be pretty wet in a chop.

We're thinking of getting a WaterTender 9.4. I tried one out and it
has the stability and room of an inflatable, but rows well.

- Water tankage and/or water maker?

70 gallons in 2 tanks. That's what the boat came with and there's
really no way to add more.

PUR 80E 3.4 GPH watermaker. I wouldn't even consider not having one.
Our cruising is extended stays in out of the way places. I would not
have one if we took occasional weeks or months cruises.

- Pressure water?, hot water?, shower?, number and type of heads.

Yes for pressure water, hot water and shower-for-two. We have a manual
pump in the galley but it doesn't work. One can conserve with pressure
water. If you can't bring yourself to do it, buy a "water saver" for
each faucet. It screws on in place of the aerator and has a little
rod. You leave the faucet on and when you move the rod water comes
out.

We also have a pressure raw water system plumbed to separate faucets.

One head with a Jabsco toilet going to a Lectra/San. A lot of folks,
including the Princess of Poop, Peggie Hall, bad mouths the Jabscos,
but it's been used ever day for 2 years and another like it was used
every day for 3 years. Never had a problem nor had to rebuild.

- Number and type of anchors, length/type of rode, windlass?, etc

4 anchors: 45 lb Bruce, 45 lb CQR, 35 lb (I think) Danforth and same
size aluminum Danforth (I think it's 11 lb). The Bruce is the main
one. I swear that thing has a "bottom magnet". We use a dedicated GPS
as an anchor alarm and the Bruce has never dragged. Note too that the
aluminum Danforth sets faster and holds better than the "iron" one. I
don't know why and I suppose it doesn't make sense, but that's the way
it is.

Main anchor rode is 130 ft of chain plus 250 ft. 3/4" line. Secondary
is 40 ft. chain plus 250 ft of 3/4" line.

Simpson Laurence 2-speed manual windless. The gypsy will take any size
chain. In fact the main rode is 30 ft. of 5/16 chain coupled to 100 ft
of 3/8 chain. I think that's the sizes.

- Galley equipment, stove type, refrigeration type, microwave?,
blender?, toaster?, freezer?

4 burner w/ oven gimbled propane stove, Norcold 110/12 Volt icebox
conversion in re-insulated built in icebox. I would NOT recommend the
Norcold. It doesn't come close to the Adler/Barber I had before.

1,000 Watt compact mirowave, toaster, 110V Haier 1.3 cu. ft. freezer
with decicated inverter.

- Safety equipment, liferaft?, EPIRB?, SSB radio?, Sat Phone?

Spot, Ham/SSB radio with modem.


- Aux power, none?, outboard?, inboard gas?, inboard diesel?,
tankage/range?, fuel filtration and polishing?, oil change system?

Perkins 4-107 inboard diesel. 40 gallon tank, again that's what the
boat came with and no place to add tankage. We usually carry 20
gallons in jerry cans on deck (I HATE that!). Range is 300 nautical
miles at 6.3 kts to 480 nautical miles at 5 kts, including the jerry
cans.

Standard Racor and inline filters. No polishing system. Oil change is
locking ball valve on oil pan with hose to drop in gallon jug.


To address the ongoing war about diesel inboard vs. outboard: I think
either are fine. An outboard will burn more fuel, but is a lot cheaper
to buy and/or replace. It would take a lot of running to make up the
difference. Some, maybe most, boats would have the problem of the prop
coming out of the water in rough conditions. A longer shaft should
take care of most of this. An old outboard dealer told me one can just
order shaft and foot extensions and put as many together as needed, so
a 4 or 5 or 6 or even 10 foot shaft is not unreasonable.

I had a Morgan 27 with an Atomic 4 inboard. The clutch developed a
problem. I had a 15 HP outboard so fabricated a mount for it. To my
surprise the outboard reached hull speed at about half throttle and
burned the same amount of fuel per hours as the Atomic 4. I eventually
repaired the clutch, but kept the outboard handy in case. I had
decided to sell the boat, but before that decision I thought seriously
about removing the Atomic 4 and going with the outboard.

I would consider a 4-cycle outboard if the Perkins died, but we have
too much overhang, plus the dinghy/davits would have to go. Here goes
another discussion maybe... If the Perkins dies, I plan on replacing
it with a DC electric motor and diesel generator. The motor would
probably mostly be run from the house bank for short periods and
calmer conditions.


- Electrical system, none?, basic 12 volt?, house bank/size?,
recharging capability?, inverter/type/size/switching?, generator
type/size/switching?

House bank: 4 golf cart batteris plus 1 deep cycle marine (this was my
trolling motor battery I replaced with a smaller one). 500 Amp Hour
total. I'd like to add 2 more golf cart batteries, but the problem is
room. Engine bank is 2 group 24 marine starting in parallel, with a 10
W solar trickle panel.

Recharging: 600 Watts of solar panels with a Blue Sky MPPT controller;
Air Marine 450 Watt wind generator; 100 Amp Baldor alternator on
engine; Freedom 10 50 Amp charger/ 1,000 Watt inverter.

Inverters: Vector 2,500 Watt, 750 Watt, 450 Watt. The 450 is used for
the flat screen TV and DVD recorder. The 750 is dedicated to the
freezer. The 2,500 is used for the microwave and coffee pot. Note that
the coffee pot takes 70 Amps from the battery, but only takes 5
minutes for a total of 6 Amp Hours.

Generator: 3.5 KW gasoline on cabin top. Yeah, I know. I hate the
thing and always refused to have one. But I bought it last summer so
we could run the marine A/C for my wife. And me too, I have to admit.
It was HOT and this summer seems to be the same. At least it's pretty
quiet. Halfway thinking about getting a Next Gen diesel...


- Self steering?, autopilot?, wind vane?

Raymarine S1 Wheel Pilot with an old Simrad wheel pilot for a spare.
Wouldn't be without one! I do like the idea of a wind vane, but I'd
prefer to have my dinghy on davits.


- Electronics, GPS plotter/features, radar/features, depth sounder,
AIS?, DSC VHF?, handhelds?, entertainment systems?, etc.

2 Garmin GPS color plotter/sounders, 1 old B&W Garmin chartplotter for
anchor drag alarm, wired to LOUD piezo buzzer, Garmin handheld GPS,
Garmin StreetPilot GPS (which works with nautical charts), Navetec GPS
sleeve for one of the Compaq IPaq pocket computers, Delorme serial
output GPS.

4 laptop computers, 3 Compaq/HP pocket computers, all with Nav
software.

DSC VHF down below, VHF at steering station, handheld VHF.

SPOT Satellite Messenger.

19" flat HD TV, antenna on mizzen, DVD recorder with digital conveter,
auto type AM/FM radio with 5 CD changer.

Would like to have AIS, at least receive only, but too durn
expen$ive!!


and so on....

OGM LED Tricolor/Anchor light and mostly LED interior lights.


No one should criticize another for his/her choices. We're all
different. I've cruised aboard different sized and equipped sailboats
over the last 47 years, and a few powerboats. My first was a 16 ft
Petral with a gasoline camp stove and D-cell running, anchor and
interior lights. The engine was an old 5 HP outboard. I was 16 at the
time and it was a most pleasurable few months. Could I do it now at
age 63? Certainly! Would I? No, I don't think so.

Rick

I'm curious about the S1. Raymarine says it is rated to 16,500 lbs but
I would guess the Rhodes 41 loaded

probably exceeds that by a bit. So how much time/miles do you have on
it and how is the performance in the slop?
Thanks
G


- Self steering?, autopilot?, wind vane?

Raymarine S1 Wheel Pilot with an old Simrad wheel pilot for a spare.
Wouldn't be without one! I do like the idea of a wind vane, but I'd
prefer to have my dinghy on davits.

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:36:06 -0700, Gordon wrote:

I'm curious about the S1. Raymarine says it is rated to 16,500 lbs but
I would guess the Rhodes 41 loaded

probably exceeds that by a bit. So how much time/miles do you have on
it and how is the performance in the slop?
Thanks
G

By quite a bit, displacement is 24,000 lbs. I really don't understand
that displacement rating. I always go with if a human can steer it, an
autopilot can. I had a 4000+ on a Coranado 35 and it steered over
12,000 nautical miles with no problems, including 15 ft folowing seas.
A friend put one on his 40,000 lb trawler and it worked fine.

Only a couple thousand miles on the Rhodes, but it's done fine on all
points of sail and under power. Twice the S1 turned off with a
"locked" error. Both times under power while pushing through mud.
Under those conditions it's all I can do to budge the wheel with both
hands.

Rick

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:02:30 -0500, Rick Morel
wrote:

For a bit over 2 years we are a live-aboard, full timer cruiser
couple. The boat is a Pearson Rhodes 41. Not a real roomy 41, she's
long and lean and FAST.

Classic good old boat ! Looks like you've got it nicely equipped
also.

I just realized today that you are also a member of the "Liveaboard
List". I've been on there a long time but mostly lurk. We have met
some of the other denizens at various times however including the
famous "Norm and Jan" duo from Bandersnatch.

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 20:07:21 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

Classic good old boat ! Looks like you've got it nicely equipped
also.

I just realized today that you are also a member of the "Liveaboard
List". I've been on there a long time but mostly lurk. We have met
some of the other denizens at various times however including the
famous "Norm and Jan" duo from Bandersnatch.

Thanks Wayne.

Yes, I've been on the Liveaboard List a long time. I used to post
quite a lot but not too much now. Norm and I have gone round and round
in the past, but we mostly agree :-)

I was thinking you were familiar.

Rick

Rick Morel wrote:


No one should criticize another for his/her choices. We're all
different. I've cruised aboard different sized and equipped sailboats
over the last 47 years, and a few powerboats. My first was a 16 ft
Petral with a gasoline camp stove and D-cell running, anchor and
interior lights. The engine was an old 5 HP outboard. I was 16 at the
time and it was a most pleasurable few months. Could I do it now at
age 63? Certainly! Would I? No, I don't think so.

Rick


That was a breath of fresh air.
Thanks Rick.

Post more - please!

Richard

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:02:30 -0500, Rick Morel
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:11:05 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:
Much snipped

I would consider a 4-cycle outboard if the Perkins died, but we have
too much overhang, plus the dinghy/davits would have to go. Here goes
another discussion maybe... If the Perkins dies, I plan on replacing
it with a DC electric motor and diesel generator. The motor would
probably mostly be run from the house bank for short periods and
calmer conditions.

Your preliminary comments are correct :-)

I'm interested in your reasoning for the electric drive as it seems to
present no advantages to have a diesel fueled generator which charge a
set of batteries to provide power to an electric motor to turn a
propeller.

Given that any mechanical or electrical device will have some losses
it would seem that there will be less efficiency then a system that
connects the diesel engine directly to the propeller rather then going
all round Robin Hood's barn, as it were.


Rick
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 19:22:34 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:

Your preliminary comments are correct :-)

I'm interested in your reasoning for the electric drive as it seems to
present no advantages to have a diesel fueled generator which charge a
set of batteries to provide power to an electric motor to turn a
propeller.

Given that any mechanical or electrical device will have some losses
it would seem that there will be less efficiency then a system that
connects the diesel engine directly to the propeller rather then going
all round Robin Hood's barn, as it were.

Cheers,

Bruce

Be glad to explain my reasoning. First, you are correct in that is is
less efficient, maybe by as much as 15%. Don't forget though, that the
clutch is going to give some losses, more so with a hydralic one.

But. In my case at least I think overall it would be better. Not a
major thing, but it would give me a bit more of stowage space because
the generator would be moved back from where the engine is and the
electric motor would take little room and be back where the clutch is
now.

I've built a couple electric cars, bikes and trikes and a motorcycle
so I'm quite familiar with the beast :-)

The electric on battery only would give 3.5 to 4 kts for several
hours, assuming I don't add any batteries. It would be used mostly for
less than an hour at a time, probably more like a few minutes to 15 or
20 minutes. The solar/wind should be able to put this back in a day or
two or three in most cases. If not, there's the generator. Assuming
the generator is not needed, a plus is no heat to make its way into
the cabin. Efficiency is really not a factor. You might as well say
it's infinity percent or totally free sine the solar/wind is
eventually putting it all back.

For longer runs, which do happen occasionally, the electric motor
would be run directly off the generator, like a train diesel
locomotive or hybrid car. This would give 5 to 6 kts, depending on
generator size, for as long as there's fuel. This mode would be where
the efficiency loss comes into play, but I feel it would be worth it
for the other battery mode. Again, this would be a fairly small part
of "normal" operation.

So there would be two motor circuits - one for pure battery and one
for generator. The pure battery would be simple, just inexpensive
"continuous duty solenoids" and maybe a couple big diodes for a
"rectactor" controller to series/parellel the batteries for 2 speeds.
You don't really need a "throttle" type controller for these lower
powers.

The generator ciruit would be simpler and cheaper as well. Instead of
a complex DC controller, SCR's can be used on the AC output, then
rectifiers to convert to pulsating DC for a true variable "throttle".

The trick is to match the prop to the motor. It would probably be
better to gear down to turn the prop slower. This could be a fairly
simple chain or notched belt drive.

So...

Mode 1, battery only, would be simple to use. No warming up the
engine, moving, cooling down and stopping the engine. Just flip a
switch and go. Most of the time the energy gets put back "free".

Mode 2, generator only, would be pretty much like now except burning a
little more fuel. Maybe. Maybe not. There are factors that could make
that up. Clutch efficiency on a "straight engine drive" and the higher
torque of an electic motor come to mind. Okay, there's got to be some
loss overall, but again I think it would be worth it having Mode 1.

The above is my opinion based on the calculations. It would work for
my cruising style, but maybe not for yours.

Rick

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 09:09:30 -0500, Rick Morel
wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 19:22:34 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:

Your preliminary comments are correct :-)

I'm interested in your reasoning for the electric drive as it seems to
present no advantages to have a diesel fueled generator which charge a
set of batteries to provide power to an electric motor to turn a
propeller.

Given that any mechanical or electrical device will have some losses
it would seem that there will be less efficiency then a system that
connects the diesel engine directly to the propeller rather then going
all round Robin Hood's barn, as it were.

Cheers,

Bruce

Be glad to explain my reasoning. First, you are correct in that is is
less efficient, maybe by as much as 15%. Don't forget though, that the
clutch is going to give some losses, more so with a hydralic one.

But. In my case at least I think overall it would be better. Not a
major thing, but it would give me a bit more of stowage space because
the generator would be moved back from where the engine is and the
electric motor would take little room and be back where the clutch is
now.

I've built a couple electric cars, bikes and trikes and a motorcycle
so I'm quite familiar with the beast :-)

The electric on battery only would give 3.5 to 4 kts for several
hours, assuming I don't add any batteries. It would be used mostly for
less than an hour at a time, probably more like a few minutes to 15 or
20 minutes. The solar/wind should be able to put this back in a day or
two or three in most cases. If not, there's the generator. Assuming
the generator is not needed, a plus is no heat to make its way into
the cabin. Efficiency is really not a factor. You might as well say
it's infinity percent or totally free sine the solar/wind is
eventually putting it all back.

For longer runs, which do happen occasionally, the electric motor
would be run directly off the generator, like a train diesel
locomotive or hybrid car. This would give 5 to 6 kts, depending on
generator size, for as long as there's fuel. This mode would be where
the efficiency loss comes into play, but I feel it would be worth it
for the other battery mode. Again, this would be a fairly small part
of "normal" operation.

So there would be two motor circuits - one for pure battery and one
for generator. The pure battery would be simple, just inexpensive
"continuous duty solenoids" and maybe a couple big diodes for a
"rectactor" controller to series/parellel the batteries for 2 speeds.
You don't really need a "throttle" type controller for these lower
powers.

The generator ciruit would be simpler and cheaper as well. Instead of
a complex DC controller, SCR's can be used on the AC output, then
rectifiers to convert to pulsating DC for a true variable "throttle".

The trick is to match the prop to the motor. It would probably be
better to gear down to turn the prop slower. This could be a fairly
simple chain or notched belt drive.

So...

Mode 1, battery only, would be simple to use. No warming up the
engine, moving, cooling down and stopping the engine. Just flip a
switch and go. Most of the time the energy gets put back "free".

Mode 2, generator only, would be pretty much like now except burning a
little more fuel. Maybe. Maybe not. There are factors that could make
that up. Clutch efficiency on a "straight engine drive" and the higher
torque of an electic motor come to mind. Okay, there's got to be some
loss overall, but again I think it would be worth it having Mode 1.

The above is my opinion based on the calculations. It would work for
my cruising style, but maybe not for yours.

Rick


I can see what you are doing but I still don't see an advantage - this
is not to say that "I wanna do it that way" is not a valid reason. But
it seems to me:

I don't know what sort of electric motor you plan on using but the one
boat installation I saw used raw water cooled motors. There was a
fairly extensive cooling system with at least one over temp warning
system per motor. The one or two water cooled generators I have seen
exhibited severe corrosion in only a few years of use. will water
cooled motors have the same service life and a low speed, small,
diesel engine?

I wonder about the high power/low power control systems. What is the
advantage of this? with the diesel auxiliary I might use idle to back
out of a slip or to creep up on the anchor rode but that is generally
a very small percent of the engine's operating time. In addition,
especially inside a marina, I have frequently seen a need for almost
full power in maneuvering, particularly when the current is running 3
or 4 knts through the marina.

It seems to me that saving space is the biggest advantage of a
diesel-electric drive. You do get rid of the gearbox but do you need a
speed change between the motor and the propeller?

In short, is there a distinct advantage in the diesel-electric drive?

I'm not trying to start an argument here, I know what the advantages
are for a diesel-electric drilling rig, for example, and I'm trying to
figure out if there is one for a small engined sailing boat.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:13:59 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:

I can see what you are doing but I still don't see an advantage - this
is not to say that "I wanna do it that way" is not a valid reason. But
it seems to me:

I don't know what sort of electric motor you plan on using but the one
boat installation I saw used raw water cooled motors. There was a
fairly extensive cooling system with at least one over temp warning
system per motor. The one or two water cooled generators I have seen
exhibited severe corrosion in only a few years of use. will water
cooled motors have the same service life and a low speed, small,
diesel engine?

Yes, I guess "I wanna do it that way" is a valid reason. Hadn't
thought about it, but that is part of it.

The plan is to use a fork lift raise/lower motor. This is the exact
same motor as used in electric cars, but with a much heavier case. It
will develop 35 HP at 120 VDC and about 8 HP at 24 VDC. No need for
water cooling. Oh, a extra plus is the motor, like all DC motors, will
work in "reverse" as a generator under sail.

Not sure what you mean about the severe corrosion you've seen in water
cooled generators. I've seen a bunch of marine generators over 30
years old still running and looking good.


I wonder about the high power/low power control systems. What is the
advantage of this? with the diesel auxiliary I might use idle to back
out of a slip or to creep up on the anchor rode but that is generally
a very small percent of the engine's operating time. In addition,
especially inside a marina, I have frequently seen a need for almost
full power in maneuvering, particularly when the current is running 3
or 4 knts through the marina.

First, with those kinds of currents you mention it would definitely be
a situation to use the high power mode!! :-)

Low power mode would not be like idle. It would be closer to the way
it seems some manufacturers, particularly Hunter, put small engines
in, like a 10 HP diesel in a Hunter 33 a friend had. Or, if you
prefer, it would be like a max range power setting. Remember we're
talking 3.5 to 4 kts on battery only. A couple more batteries and it
could be 4.5 to 5 kts, probably with about the same "range" with the
added Amp Hours. Remember, battery only is for short time use. Max
range would probably be 4 to 8 miles, but you really wouldn't want to
do that because you'd have to use the generator to recharge. Better to
go into high power mode.


Okay, let's look at how low power, battery only, would be used. As I
had mentioned, right now we're at a marina in Slidell, LA due to a
care-giver situation. It's about 2 miles to the lake. We could use
battery only to get to the lake, sail about, etc., then maybe low
power back. In a way it does make sense because when we get back we'll
plug in and recharge "free" (fixed rate electricity).

If we moved to a nearby marina, our trip to the lake would be about
1/4 mile. Now this would make more sense to use low power. Someone not
cruising, day sailing or overnight weekending, in this situation could
use electric only and recharge when they got back. There'd be no need
for anything else unless they take occasional cruises.


Our normal sailing mode is cruising and anchoring out, with occasional
marina stays. There are times when we travel some in canals, so the
high power generator mode is needed. IOW, there are times when we need
to play motorboat for hours, days or maybe even weeks at a time.

Low power battery mode:

Yes, we know how to drop and weigh anchor under sail, but sometimes
there's little or no margin for error. Easier and safer to douse the
sails and flip a switch. Getting in and out of "port" when needed for
supplies, clearing in/out, etc. Ever try to creep though reefs
visually under sail?

Rather than go on, just look back how you use your engine. If it's say
less than a 1/2 hour a day if cruising or less than an hour
day-sailing, pure electric would work for you. Think about how nice it
would be to flip a switch and have instant power for whatever reason.
Maybe the winds are light and you want to come about and your boat is
one of those that's reluctant or very slow to do so in light
conditions. Hard over, flip the switch, come about, flip the switch
off.

The 110 VAC generator gives another plus of power for A/C if you want
to burn the fuel, fast charging with a large charger, etc. Heck, I
might pull the propane stove and put in an electric one. I wonder how
that would compare to "cooking with gas", fuel and cost wise?

It seems to me that saving space is the biggest advantage of a
diesel-electric drive. You do get rid of the gearbox but do you need a
speed change between the motor and the propeller?

As I had mentioned, it would take a recduction for much better
propellor efficiency. A chain drive would be cheapest, but a bit
noisy. Notched belt would be much ore expensive, but quiet. One could
maybe find a "gearbox" surplus or junked or... The motor brushes can
be electricly swapped for reverse.


In short, is there a distinct advantage in the diesel-electric drive?

I don't think there is a "distinct" advantage and in some cases a
disadvantage. It depends on one's boating style. Our case I feel there
is an advantage. Wayne had mentioned his trawler - in his case I would
say big disadvantage. As mentioned before, I've had lots of experience
with electric power and with "green" power - solar and wind. Whenever
you use those you have to look at your needs and wants and decide if
it's for you. You can't just turn on stuff or jump into your electric
car and drive it like a combustion one. You have to do a bit of
"resouce management". Most folks want "energy on demand" and are
unwilling to put up with the "work" to use or the waiting sometimes.


I'm not trying to start an argument here, I know what the advantages
are for a diesel-electric drilling rig, for example, and I'm trying to
figure out if there is one for a small engined sailing boat.

No argumant, Bruce :-) I know where you're coming from. It's a complex
subject with all kinds of "gotcha's". I wish it were like in the
movies, where they have a 2 X 2 ft. solar panel on a 20 passenger
electric transport and it runs it at 90 MPH all day and even all night
(from starlight???). It just doesn't work that way in the real world.

Other than a dinghy, I wouldn't even consider an electric power boat.
Well, maybe a slow 'African Queen' type on a lake or bayou for short
weekend use.

Rick