labels
 

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:01:31 -0400, jeff wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 00:38:57 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote:

On Apr 24, 11:29 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
Do any of use labels for items like mainsheet, traveller, etc.? I find
that
when I'm teaching it's easier for beginning students to get a clew if
they
can read what's in front of them. I've been using my old Brother
P-touch,
but the labels fade pretty quickly. Suggestions welcome.

As a current university faculty wich includes Employee Training &
Develpment among others.
Licensed state teacher K-8 (expired)
Former Marine Education Specialist
WOrking Able Seaman on a 1100 GRT vessel.

One of the difintions of COmmunication includes the tem, uncertainty
reduction. In someones words to meaning creation.
Learning theory is a mature body of literature. SOme belive there are
7 learning styles. THat means teachers need to creat lessons that use
each.
Jean Piaget says humans have 4 stages of cognative develpmment that
controll what can be learned at specific ages. So while one teaching
stratigy is effective on some learners it will fail with others.

SO to say what is the "best way" to teach is wrong on two levels.
First, its not, how to teach rather how do others learn. For example
some people are color blind so out goes your color code systm but
thats an over simplified analogy.
Second, im too tired to expain the other.
NOw I know there are a bunch of "traininers" and instructors of
"training the trainer" courses here who have memorized a few basich
learning concepts who will spout some form of , see one, do one teach
one or some other variation of telling and showing.

TO anser your questoin.......................... collored lines and
labled liines work wonderfully for some and fail for others. ONe thing
Ive learned in the GOM. unllicensed deckhands and 100 ton operators
have diffrent names for bits and tie-up lines from boat to boat. One
midship line was called the "garbage can" bit/line cause that what was
next to the bit. Was I surprised my first day when he told me to
start with the garbage can line???

Communicatoin = reduction of uncertainty and meaning creation.

IN conclussion,
color code lines
lable with names/placard
draw a schematic
sing about them
watch a move about them
rig a model boat
touch each line
there are a few others but i think you get the idea.

Bob-Sensei, AB

One major problem, that you missed completely, Bob.

If you teach someone the ropes using color codes or labels, you are
only teaching them to sail THAT boat. They will be lost on any other
boat, because the lines will be different colors, or therv will be no
labels. They might even have labels, but with slightly ifferent names.
Give a man a fish... You know the rest.

Teach them based on the function of the line and it's route, and they
will then REALLY know the ropes in a way they can use on other boats.
It might also teach them a new way to learn things on their own by
using observation and judgement to figure things out.



Total nonsense.

If you want to encourage someone to learn more about sailing, you should
make it as easy as possible to use the lines. Or perhaps you think
releasing the halyard when you intended to ease the Cunningham would be
a useful learning experience. While its true that some people will want
to learn the meaning of each line, the vast majority would think that
unlabeled lines are too risky to event try to sort out.

Of course, if your goal is to ensure only those who are "worthy" are
allowed to sail, then we should require that they be able to name every
line on a full rigged ship before coming on board. Navigating in the
fog with only a lead line and chip log should be a prerequisite for
owning a GPS.


Total hyperbolic baloney, Jeff. You sound like a hysterical girl.

Teach the lines a few at a time. Start with the most basic ones. Start
with the main halyard, and main sheets. No one needs to know a barber
haul from a foreguy from a Cunningham until later on. Much later on,
for many people, who may never own a boat that includes them.

Musical analogy: Learn to play a C major scale before you start to
worry about flats and sharps, much less pentatonic, myxolydian and
Phrygian scales.

Teaching someone to read labels is not teaching them anything about
sailing. Jon's students will realize that when they try to sail a boat
that Jon hasn't "baby proofed".

This is completely wrong. I think you're trying to be an abstructionist
rather than actually have a legitimate discussion. I'm not sure why. I
clearly explained the purpose of the labels and others identified the use of
colored lines. Both reduce the chance of confusion during teaching. No claim
has been made that there's only one way or that I or anyone is teaching them
to read labels. My students do quite well after they move on to greater
things, and they know the purpose of things such as lines, so that they can
identify the form they take. Please don't presume to know about how I teach
or how my students learn. When was the last time you taught a formal sailing
course? Under what program?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

labels
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:55:34 -0400, wrote:

Teaching someone to read labels is not teaching them anything about
sailing. Jon's students will realize that when they try to sail a boat
that Jon hasn't "baby proofed".

In the end it all comes down to your objectives. If you want to
train people quickly to do a specific job on a specific boat, color
coding and labels are the way to go. If you want people to react
quickly and accurately on a specific boat, color coding and labels are
the way to go.

All other situations fall into the category of theoretical learning
which is fine for building a long term understanding of the principles
involved, but not very useful for quick, accurate execution by a team
doing split second maneuvers. Successful racing boats have been color
coding and labeling for many years. It works very well and helps to
keep everything sorted out. Without it, the cockpit on most boats
quickly resembles a large bowl of pasta.



And, it's not completely about students. I have charterers on my boat who
don't know didly about sailing. They want to help. If I started teaching
them before we got going, it would eat up the entire day. Labels and
color-coded lines are perfect for this situation.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

labels
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
ons...

And, it's not completely about students. I have charterers on my boat who
don't know didly about sailing. They want to help. If I started teaching
them before we got going, it would eat up the entire day. Labels and
color-coded lines are perfect for this situation.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

I have to agree with that. And most people learn better by actually doing
something rather than having it explained anyway. "If something's going to
happen, it's going to happen out there." --Captain Ron

However, it's not standing rigging because it has a blue ribbon on it. It's
standing rigging because it holds up something that's not supposed to move.
It's not running rigging because it has a red ribbon, but because it
controls the movement of something that IS supposed to move. But I am
confident that you're actually teaching, not doing the "monkey see-monkey
do" bit, so that particular Captain Ronism is moot.

Labels and color-coded lines have their place, and can be very useful.
--
KLC Lewis
www.cafepress.com/tmen
www.zazzle.com/klclewis
www.KLCLewisStudios.com

labels
 

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:32:29 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:55:34 -0400, wrote:

Teaching someone to read labels is not teaching them anything about
sailing. Jon's students will realize that when they try to sail a boat
that Jon hasn't "baby proofed".

In the end it all comes down to your objectives. If you want to
train people quickly to do a specific job on a specific boat, color
coding and labels are the way to go. If you want people to react
quickly and accurately on a specific boat, color coding and labels are
the way to go.

All other situations fall into the category of theoretical learning
which is fine for building a long term understanding of the principles
involved, but not very useful for quick, accurate execution by a team
doing split second maneuvers. Successful racing boats have been color
coding and labeling for many years. It works very well and helps to
keep everything sorted out. Without it, the cockpit on most boats
quickly resembles a large bowl of pasta.

Agreed.

labels
 

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 08:32:38 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:01:31 -0400, jeff wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 00:38:57 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote:

On Apr 24, 11:29 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
Do any of use labels for items like mainsheet, traveller, etc.? I find
that
when I'm teaching it's easier for beginning students to get a clew if
they
can read what's in front of them. I've been using my old Brother
P-touch,
but the labels fade pretty quickly. Suggestions welcome.

As a current university faculty wich includes Employee Training &
Develpment among others.
Licensed state teacher K-8 (expired)
Former Marine Education Specialist
WOrking Able Seaman on a 1100 GRT vessel.

One of the difintions of COmmunication includes the tem, uncertainty
reduction. In someones words to meaning creation.
Learning theory is a mature body of literature. SOme belive there are
7 learning styles. THat means teachers need to creat lessons that use
each.
Jean Piaget says humans have 4 stages of cognative develpmment that
controll what can be learned at specific ages. So while one teaching
stratigy is effective on some learners it will fail with others.

SO to say what is the "best way" to teach is wrong on two levels.
First, its not, how to teach rather how do others learn. For example
some people are color blind so out goes your color code systm but
thats an over simplified analogy.
Second, im too tired to expain the other.
NOw I know there are a bunch of "traininers" and instructors of
"training the trainer" courses here who have memorized a few basich
learning concepts who will spout some form of , see one, do one teach
one or some other variation of telling and showing.

TO anser your questoin.......................... collored lines and
labled liines work wonderfully for some and fail for others. ONe thing
Ive learned in the GOM. unllicensed deckhands and 100 ton operators
have diffrent names for bits and tie-up lines from boat to boat. One
midship line was called the "garbage can" bit/line cause that what was
next to the bit. Was I surprised my first day when he told me to
start with the garbage can line???

Communicatoin = reduction of uncertainty and meaning creation.

IN conclussion,
color code lines
lable with names/placard
draw a schematic
sing about them
watch a move about them
rig a model boat
touch each line
there are a few others but i think you get the idea.

Bob-Sensei, AB

One major problem, that you missed completely, Bob.

If you teach someone the ropes using color codes or labels, you are
only teaching them to sail THAT boat. They will be lost on any other
boat, because the lines will be different colors, or therv will be no
labels. They might even have labels, but with slightly ifferent names.
Give a man a fish... You know the rest.

Teach them based on the function of the line and it's route, and they
will then REALLY know the ropes in a way they can use on other boats.
It might also teach them a new way to learn things on their own by
using observation and judgement to figure things out.



Total nonsense.

If you want to encourage someone to learn more about sailing, you should
make it as easy as possible to use the lines. Or perhaps you think
releasing the halyard when you intended to ease the Cunningham would be
a useful learning experience. While its true that some people will want
to learn the meaning of each line, the vast majority would think that
unlabeled lines are too risky to event try to sort out.

Of course, if your goal is to ensure only those who are "worthy" are
allowed to sail, then we should require that they be able to name every
line on a full rigged ship before coming on board. Navigating in the
fog with only a lead line and chip log should be a prerequisite for
owning a GPS.


Total hyperbolic baloney, Jeff. You sound like a hysterical girl.

Teach the lines a few at a time. Start with the most basic ones. Start
with the main halyard, and main sheets. No one needs to know a barber
haul from a foreguy from a Cunningham until later on. Much later on,
for many people, who may never own a boat that includes them.

Musical analogy: Learn to play a C major scale before you start to
worry about flats and sharps, much less pentatonic, myxolydian and
Phrygian scales.

Teaching someone to read labels is not teaching them anything about
sailing. Jon's students will realize that when they try to sail a boat
that Jon hasn't "baby proofed".

This is completely wrong. I think you're trying to be an abstructionist
rather than actually have a legitimate discussion. I'm not sure why. I
clearly explained the purpose of the labels and others identified the use of
colored lines. Both reduce the chance of confusion during teaching. No claim
has been made that there's only one way or that I or anyone is teaching them
to read labels. My students do quite well after they move on to greater
things, and they know the purpose of things such as lines, so that they can
identify the form they take. Please don't presume to know about how I teach
or how my students learn. When was the last time you taught a formal sailing
course? Under what program?

??? Take the broomstick out iof your ass, Jon. You are tripping over
it.

labels
 

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:01:31 -0400, jeff wrote:


Teaching someone to read labels is not teaching them anything about
sailing. Jon's students will realize that when they try to sail a boat
that Jon hasn't "baby proofed".


It's not for the students, it's for Jon. He can't remember which is what.

labels
 

labels
 

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:27:08 -0400, jeff wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:01:31 -0400, jeff wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 00:38:57 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote:

On Apr 24, 11:29 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
Do any of use labels for items like mainsheet, traveller, etc.? I find that
when I'm teaching it's easier for beginning students to get a clew if they
can read what's in front of them. I've been using my old Brother P-touch,
but the labels fade pretty quickly. Suggestions welcome.
As a current university faculty wich includes Employee Training &
Develpment among others.
Licensed state teacher K-8 (expired)
Former Marine Education Specialist
WOrking Able Seaman on a 1100 GRT vessel.

One of the difintions of COmmunication includes the tem, uncertainty
reduction. In someones words to meaning creation.
Learning theory is a mature body of literature. SOme belive there are
7 learning styles. THat means teachers need to creat lessons that use
each.
Jean Piaget says humans have 4 stages of cognative develpmment that
controll what can be learned at specific ages. So while one teaching
stratigy is effective on some learners it will fail with others.

SO to say what is the "best way" to teach is wrong on two levels.
First, its not, how to teach rather how do others learn. For example
some people are color blind so out goes your color code systm but
thats an over simplified analogy.
Second, im too tired to expain the other.
NOw I know there are a bunch of "traininers" and instructors of
"training the trainer" courses here who have memorized a few basich
learning concepts who will spout some form of , see one, do one teach
one or some other variation of telling and showing.

TO anser your questoin.......................... collored lines and
labled liines work wonderfully for some and fail for others. ONe thing
Ive learned in the GOM. unllicensed deckhands and 100 ton operators
have diffrent names for bits and tie-up lines from boat to boat. One
midship line was called the "garbage can" bit/line cause that what was
next to the bit. Was I surprised my first day when he told me to
start with the garbage can line???

Communicatoin = reduction of uncertainty and meaning creation.

IN conclussion,
color code lines
lable with names/placard
draw a schematic
sing about them
watch a move about them
rig a model boat
touch each line
there are a few others but i think you get the idea.

Bob-Sensei, AB
One major problem, that you missed completely, Bob.

If you teach someone the ropes using color codes or labels, you are
only teaching them to sail THAT boat. They will be lost on any other
boat, because the lines will be different colors, or therv will be no
labels. They might even have labels, but with slightly ifferent names.
Give a man a fish... You know the rest.

Teach them based on the function of the line and it's route, and they
will then REALLY know the ropes in a way they can use on other boats.
It might also teach them a new way to learn things on their own by
using observation and judgement to figure things out.


Total nonsense.

If you want to encourage someone to learn more about sailing, you should
make it as easy as possible to use the lines. Or perhaps you think
releasing the halyard when you intended to ease the Cunningham would be
a useful learning experience. While its true that some people will want
to learn the meaning of each line, the vast majority would think that
unlabeled lines are too risky to event try to sort out.

Of course, if your goal is to ensure only those who are "worthy" are
allowed to sail, then we should require that they be able to name every
line on a full rigged ship before coming on board. Navigating in the
fog with only a lead line and chip log should be a prerequisite for
owning a GPS.


Total hyperbolic baloney, Jeff. You sound like a hysterical girl.


And you sound like someone who doesn't get too many people back for a
second sail.


Teach the lines a few at a time. Start with the most basic ones. Start
with the main halyard, and main sheets. No one needs to know a barber
haul from a foreguy from a Cunningham until later on. Much later on,
for many people, who may never own a boat that includes them.

Musical analogy: Learn to play a C major scale before you start to
worry about flats and sharps, much less pentatonic, myxolydian and
Phrygian scales.

No. The musical analogy is requiring someone to play the scales before
going to a concert.


Teaching someone to read labels is not teaching them anything about
sailing. Jon's students will realize that when they try to sail a boat
that Jon hasn't "baby proofed".

No, Jon's students will realize that sailing can be fun, easy, and
approachable.

All of my clutches are labeled, and the lines are different colors.
Also, most of the dock line are different colors, so that I can always
tell crew to use a particular line. Its absurd to ask a guest to "find
the line that comes from roller furler" when I can tell him that the all
black line is from the furler. Frankly, its impossible to handle a
fully set-up racing or cruising boat without some sort of coding; how
else do you tell the difference between the first and second jiffy reef
line? Spinnaker halyard and jib halyard?

We are not talking about racing, or anything else, Jeff. We are
talking about teaching someone the basics of sailing. It is exactly
the wrong time to be using labels and color codes.

In a previous thread, Jon was adamant that he had to teach his pupils
the wrong terminology for something, because otherwise they would be
confused.

This is just more of the same wrong headed thinking.

My biggest problem is the number of people I can't get onto my boat
for a sail in a 6 month season because there are just too many of
them.

labels
 

labels
 

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:39:34 -0400, jeff wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:27:08 -0400, jeff wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:01:31 -0400, jeff wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 00:38:57 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote:

On Apr 24, 11:29 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
Do any of use labels for items like mainsheet, traveller, etc.? I find that
when I'm teaching it's easier for beginning students to get a clew if they
can read what's in front of them. I've been using my old Brother P-touch,
but the labels fade pretty quickly. Suggestions welcome.
As a current university faculty wich includes Employee Training &
Develpment among others.
Licensed state teacher K-8 (expired)
Former Marine Education Specialist
WOrking Able Seaman on a 1100 GRT vessel.

One of the difintions of COmmunication includes the tem, uncertainty
reduction. In someones words to meaning creation.
Learning theory is a mature body of literature. SOme belive there are
7 learning styles. THat means teachers need to creat lessons that use
each.
Jean Piaget says humans have 4 stages of cognative develpmment that
controll what can be learned at specific ages. So while one teaching
stratigy is effective on some learners it will fail with others.

SO to say what is the "best way" to teach is wrong on two levels.
First, its not, how to teach rather how do others learn. For example
some people are color blind so out goes your color code systm but
thats an over simplified analogy.
Second, im too tired to expain the other.
NOw I know there are a bunch of "traininers" and instructors of
"training the trainer" courses here who have memorized a few basich
learning concepts who will spout some form of , see one, do one teach
one or some other variation of telling and showing.

TO anser your questoin.......................... collored lines and
labled liines work wonderfully for some and fail for others. ONe thing
Ive learned in the GOM. unllicensed deckhands and 100 ton operators
have diffrent names for bits and tie-up lines from boat to boat. One
midship line was called the "garbage can" bit/line cause that what was
next to the bit. Was I surprised my first day when he told me to
start with the garbage can line???

Communicatoin = reduction of uncertainty and meaning creation.

IN conclussion,
color code lines
lable with names/placard
draw a schematic
sing about them
watch a move about them
rig a model boat
touch each line
there are a few others but i think you get the idea.

Bob-Sensei, AB
One major problem, that you missed completely, Bob.

If you teach someone the ropes using color codes or labels, you are
only teaching them to sail THAT boat. They will be lost on any other
boat, because the lines will be different colors, or therv will be no
labels. They might even have labels, but with slightly ifferent names.
Give a man a fish... You know the rest.

Teach them based on the function of the line and it's route, and they
will then REALLY know the ropes in a way they can use on other boats.
It might also teach them a new way to learn things on their own by
using observation and judgement to figure things out.


Total nonsense.

If you want to encourage someone to learn more about sailing, you should
make it as easy as possible to use the lines. Or perhaps you think
releasing the halyard when you intended to ease the Cunningham would be
a useful learning experience. While its true that some people will want
to learn the meaning of each line, the vast majority would think that
unlabeled lines are too risky to event try to sort out.

Of course, if your goal is to ensure only those who are "worthy" are
allowed to sail, then we should require that they be able to name every
line on a full rigged ship before coming on board. Navigating in the
fog with only a lead line and chip log should be a prerequisite for
owning a GPS.

Total hyperbolic baloney, Jeff. You sound like a hysterical girl.

And you sound like someone who doesn't get too many people back for a
second sail.


Teach the lines a few at a time. Start with the most basic ones. Start
with the main halyard, and main sheets. No one needs to know a barber
haul from a foreguy from a Cunningham until later on. Much later on,
for many people, who may never own a boat that includes them.

Musical analogy: Learn to play a C major scale before you start to
worry about flats and sharps, much less pentatonic, myxolydian and
Phrygian scales.
No. The musical analogy is requiring someone to play the scales before
going to a concert.

Teaching someone to read labels is not teaching them anything about
sailing. Jon's students will realize that when they try to sail a boat
that Jon hasn't "baby proofed".
No, Jon's students will realize that sailing can be fun, easy, and
approachable.

All of my clutches are labeled, and the lines are different colors.
Also, most of the dock line are different colors, so that I can always
tell crew to use a particular line. Its absurd to ask a guest to "find
the line that comes from roller furler" when I can tell him that the all
black line is from the furler. Frankly, its impossible to handle a
fully set-up racing or cruising boat without some sort of coding; how
else do you tell the difference between the first and second jiffy reef
line? Spinnaker halyard and jib halyard?

We are not talking about racing, or anything else, Jeff. We are
talking about teaching someone the basics of sailing. It is exactly
the wrong time to be using labels and color codes.

Wrong. Are your actually claiming that while a "proper" racing or
cruising boat should use coding, a boat used at time for training should
have none??? That sounds patently stupid.


Only to someone who lacks critical thinking skills.


In a previous thread, Jon was adamant that he had to teach his pupils
the wrong terminology for something, because otherwise they would be
confused.

Nothing wrong with that, although it has to be done carefully. There
are lots of times when teaching one skill, one has to teach a technique
that must be refined in advanced training.


Oi!


This is just more of the same wrong headed thinking.

Nope, its the voice of someone with lots more real life sailing
experience than you.

I seriously doubt that, fatso.