"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:05:39 -0700, Mark Borgerson
wrote:

Until you get into the classes like the America's Cup yachts, with
their tilting keels, doesn't a fixed keel improve windward
performance?

The problem arises when you sail in an area with a lot of shallow
water. The swing keel is a compromise but it will give you better
performance than a shallow fixed keel.

Agreed. Shallow water is the reason for my preference of a swing keel. I'm
just off the Indian River Lagoon, where (as I'm sure you know), except for a
few spots in our area, sailing is pretty much restricted to the ICW channel
for boats with more than 4' draft. These open areas are mostly deep enough
but I've done my share of sandbar hopping on a friends 27 Hunter with 4'2"
draft. There's the ocean too, but we're about 5 boat hours from the inlet
which doesn't allow for "just hop on the boat" outings.

"mmc" wrote in message
ng.com...
Agreed. Shallow water is the reason for my preference of a swing keel.
I'm
just off the Indian River Lagoon, where (as I'm sure you know), except for
a few spots in our area, sailing is pretty much restricted to the ICW
channel for boats with more than 4' draft. These open areas are mostly
deep enough but I've done my share of sandbar hopping on a friends 27
Hunter with 4'2" draft. There's the ocean too, but we're about 5 boat
hours from the inlet which doesn't allow for "just hop on the boat"
outings.
For shallow water I think that a centreboard is best if you want a boat that
can go well to windward when there is sufficient depth and yet go into
shallow water with the keel up.
I don't understand your preference for swing keel in shallow water, unless
we are not talking about the same thing. To me, a swing keel is what the
deep ocean racers have, with a heavy bulb at the bottom that can be swung to
one side to provide better stiffness on a long tack. In restricted shallow
water that would be useless since when you tack there would be insufficient
water to swing the keel down and hoist it up the other side.

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"mmc" wrote in message
ng.com...
Agreed. Shallow water is the reason for my preference of a swing keel.
I'm
just off the Indian River Lagoon, where (as I'm sure you know), except
for a few spots in our area, sailing is pretty much restricted to the ICW
channel for boats with more than 4' draft. These open areas are mostly
deep enough but I've done my share of sandbar hopping on a friends 27
Hunter with 4'2" draft. There's the ocean too, but we're about 5 boat
hours from the inlet which doesn't allow for "just hop on the boat"
outings.
For shallow water I think that a centreboard is best if you want a boat
that can go well to windward when there is sufficient depth and yet go
into shallow water with the keel up.
I don't understand your preference for swing keel in shallow water,
unless we are not talking about the same thing. To me, a swing keel is
what the deep ocean racers have, with a heavy bulb at the bottom that can
be swung to one side to provide better stiffness on a long tack. In
restricted shallow water that would be useless since when you tack there
would be insufficient water to swing the keel down and hoist it up the
other side.

We're talking about the same thing. I've always understood a swing keel as
the as the type that is drawn in a arc (pivoting on a pin at the top) into a
trunk, either under the boat or inside the cabin as in the Freedoms.
But then, I could have been using the wrong terminology for a long time now!
I beleive the term for a type you describe that pivots side to side is
"Canting Ballast".

"mmc" wrote in message
ng.com...

"Edgar" wrote in message
I don't understand your preference for swing keel in shallow water,
unless we are not talking about the same thing. To me, a swing keel is
what the deep ocean racers have, with a heavy bulb at the bottom that can
be swung to one side to provide better stiffness on a long tack. In
restricted shallow water that would be useless since when you tack there
would be insufficient water to swing the keel down and hoist it up the
other side.

We're talking about the same thing. I've always understood a swing keel as
the as the type that is drawn in a arc (pivoting on a pin at the top) into
a trunk, either under the boat or inside the cabin as in the Freedoms.
But then, I could have been using the wrong terminology for a long time
now!
I beleive the term for a type you describe that pivots side to side is
"Canting Ballast".

Ah yes. We are talking about the same thing, which I call a centreboard.
That is surely the right way to go if you want shallow water capability with
good windward performance when depth of water allows.
Never heard the term 'canting ballast' although once heard it is self
explanatory, but that is what I have always regarded as a 'swing keel'.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:17:03 -0400, "mmc" wrote:


"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"mmc" wrote in message
ng.com...
Agreed. Shallow water is the reason for my preference of a swing keel.
I'm
just off the Indian River Lagoon, where (as I'm sure you know), except
for a few spots in our area, sailing is pretty much restricted to the
ICW
channel for boats with more than 4' draft. These open areas are mostly
deep enough but I've done my share of sandbar hopping on a friends 27
Hunter with 4'2" draft. There's the ocean too, but we're about 5 boat
hours from the inlet which doesn't allow for "just hop on the boat"
outings.
For shallow water I think that a centreboard is best if you want a boat
that can go well to windward when there is sufficient depth and yet go
into shallow water with the keel up.
I don't understand your preference for swing keel in shallow water,
unless we are not talking about the same thing. To me, a swing keel is
what the deep ocean racers have, with a heavy bulb at the bottom that
can
be swung to one side to provide better stiffness on a long tack. In
restricted shallow water that would be useless since when you tack there
would be insufficient water to swing the keel down and hoist it up the
other side.

We're talking about the same thing. I've always understood a swing keel as
the as the type that is drawn in a arc (pivoting on a pin at the top) into
a
trunk, either under the boat or inside the cabin as in the Freedoms.
But then, I could have been using the wrong terminology for a long time
now!
I beleive the term for a type you describe that pivots side to side is
"Canting Ballast".


I've always thought of a swing keel as being a centerboard that is
also substantial ballast.

Yes, some are and some are not heavy. I have raced dinghies with cb's
weighing almost 200 pounds and others where the cb was plywood for lightness
with a slug of lead cast in to ensure it stayed down.

On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 21:36:01 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:17:03 -0400, "mmc" wrote:


"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"mmc" wrote in message
ng.com...
Agreed. Shallow water is the reason for my preference of a swing keel.
I'm
just off the Indian River Lagoon, where (as I'm sure you know), except
for a few spots in our area, sailing is pretty much restricted to the
ICW
channel for boats with more than 4' draft. These open areas are mostly
deep enough but I've done my share of sandbar hopping on a friends 27
Hunter with 4'2" draft. There's the ocean too, but we're about 5 boat
hours from the inlet which doesn't allow for "just hop on the boat"
outings.
For shallow water I think that a centreboard is best if you want a boat
that can go well to windward when there is sufficient depth and yet go
into shallow water with the keel up.
I don't understand your preference for swing keel in shallow water,
unless we are not talking about the same thing. To me, a swing keel is
what the deep ocean racers have, with a heavy bulb at the bottom that
can
be swung to one side to provide better stiffness on a long tack. In
restricted shallow water that would be useless since when you tack there
would be insufficient water to swing the keel down and hoist it up the
other side.

We're talking about the same thing. I've always understood a swing keel as
the as the type that is drawn in a arc (pivoting on a pin at the top) into
a
trunk, either under the boat or inside the cabin as in the Freedoms.
But then, I could have been using the wrong terminology for a long time
now!
I beleive the term for a type you describe that pivots side to side is
"Canting Ballast".


I've always thought of a swing keel as being a centerboard that is
also substantial ballast.

Yes, some are and some are not heavy. I have raced dinghies with cb's
weighing almost 200 pounds and others where the cb was plywood for lightness
with a slug of lead cast in to ensure it stayed down.



If the purpose is just to present a surface, then it's a centerboard.
If the purpose is also to provide substantial ballast similar to what
a fixed keel would offer, then it's a swing keel.

Two different animals.

wrote:

If the purpose is just to present a surface, then it's a centerboard.
If the purpose is also to provide substantial ballast similar to what
a fixed keel would offer, then it's a swing keel.

Two different animals.

Maybe not the best crusing boat, but consider the Catalina 25.
It has been offered with ballasted swing keel, shallow draft wing keel,
and a deep fin.

I've not had the opportunity to sail any of the three, so I can't offer
any first hand comparisons.

My slip neighbor has a wing keel.
Looking back at some of the photos, his boat always seems to be reefed in any
wind. He also ran aground last year! But to be fair the lake was down several
feet then.

The fin keel is fairly rare. But I would expect it to be the best performer
to windward.

Which leaves the most popular swing keel.

Anybody have any real experience with any of these - for comparison purposes?


Richard

On Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:56:33 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Anybody have any real experience with any of these - for comparison purposes?

When I was a PHRF handicapper we used to rate the centerboard versions
of the same boat 6 to 9 seconds per mile slower. At 5 kts that works
out to less than a tenth of a knot difference. That's a big
difference in racing but barely noticable to most cruising boats.
That assumes that the centerboard is properly faired and kept in race
ready condition (spotlessly clean).

"cavelamb" wrote in message
m...
wrote:

If the purpose is just to present a surface, then it's a centerboard.
If the purpose is also to provide substantial ballast similar to what
a fixed keel would offer, then it's a swing keel.

Two different animals.

Maybe not the best crusing boat, but consider the Catalina 25.
It has been offered with ballasted swing keel, shallow draft wing keel,
and a deep fin.

I've not had the opportunity to sail any of the three, so I can't offer
any first hand comparisons.

My slip neighbor has a wing keel.
Looking back at some of the photos, his boat always seems to be reefed in
any wind. He also ran aground last year! But to be fair the lake was down
several feet then.

The fin keel is fairly rare. But I would expect it to be the best
performer
to windward.

Which leaves the most popular swing keel.

Anybody have any real experience with any of these - for comparison
purposes?


Richard

I used to have a Catalina 22. What a great boat. Used it more than any other
boat I've owned, enough room for the Mrs and I to weekend and sailed good
too. As I recall, it drew something like 1 1/2' with the keel up. Had a
Ensenda 21 before that and there was huge difference between the 2. The
Ensenada was really lightly built with no "refinements" like not having a
deck (gelcoated headliner, may have the nom wrong) liner, just glass. Big
difference in sailing too.
I've sailed quite a bit on fixed fin and swing keel boats (above and a 22
Hunter) but can't compare as the smallest fixed keel was 27' and probably
3-4 times the weight of the Catalina.

My chrysler C-22 is a swing keel, also a dream boat for me . seems
like the perfect sailboat for someone gettingt back into it. I like
the ideal/versitality of it will be great for playing at the local
lakes and when I'm ready for the big pond It sould be good for short
hops.

Mario

If the purpose is just to present a surface, then it's a centerboard.
If the purpose is also to provide substantial ballast similar to what
a fixed keel would offer, then it's a swing keel.

Two different animals.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -