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#1
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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my next dream boat...
Don White wrote:
"mmc" wrote in message g.com... is a Freedom 33 Cat Ketch. I like the semi-traditional look, the uniqueness (is this a word?) of the cat ketch rig in a (more) modern yachts and, from following the Yahoo owners group, the dedication displayed by the owners for these boats. I like the 36 too but not real fond of the big bump out in the cockpit created by the aft cabin. We (the family and I) enjoy a large(r) cockpit and this arrangement wouldn't work for us. I'd like a shoal draft/swing keel but like the openess of the cabin with the fixed keel (swing keel version has the trunk bisecting the salon), but can't have everything so probably settle for the fixed keel. I've seen other more recent cat ketches but most look like most other modern boats that just happen to have this rig, almost as an after thought while the Freedoms maintain some of the "chunkyness" of the old cat boats. Not looking for screaming speed or to wow the dock walkers, but more the comfort, design, ease of use and style of these boats. Just trying to start a boat/cruising related discussion. What do you guys think? The advantage of the swing keel in a smaller sailboat, besides sailing in shallow waters, is the ability to easily launch/retrieve & tow. With a 36 boat, I'd be more concerned about stability in heavy seas... so I'd stick with a fixed keel. regardless of what it does to windward performance... |
#2
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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my next dream boat...
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#3
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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my next dream boat...
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#4
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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my next dream boat...
On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:05:39 -0700, Mark Borgerson
wrote: Until you get into the classes like the America's Cup yachts, with their tilting keels, doesn't a fixed keel improve windward performance? The problem arises when you sail in an area with a lot of shallow water. The swing keel is a compromise but it will give you better performance than a shallow fixed keel. |
#5
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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my next dream boat...
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:05:39 -0700, Mark Borgerson wrote: Until you get into the classes like the America's Cup yachts, with their tilting keels, doesn't a fixed keel improve windward performance? The problem arises when you sail in an area with a lot of shallow water. The swing keel is a compromise but it will give you better performance than a shallow fixed keel. Agreed. Shallow water is the reason for my preference of a swing keel. I'm just off the Indian River Lagoon, where (as I'm sure you know), except for a few spots in our area, sailing is pretty much restricted to the ICW channel for boats with more than 4' draft. These open areas are mostly deep enough but I've done my share of sandbar hopping on a friends 27 Hunter with 4'2" draft. There's the ocean too, but we're about 5 boat hours from the inlet which doesn't allow for "just hop on the boat" outings. |
#6
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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my next dream boat...
"mmc" wrote in message ng.com... Agreed. Shallow water is the reason for my preference of a swing keel. I'm just off the Indian River Lagoon, where (as I'm sure you know), except for a few spots in our area, sailing is pretty much restricted to the ICW channel for boats with more than 4' draft. These open areas are mostly deep enough but I've done my share of sandbar hopping on a friends 27 Hunter with 4'2" draft. There's the ocean too, but we're about 5 boat hours from the inlet which doesn't allow for "just hop on the boat" outings. For shallow water I think that a centreboard is best if you want a boat that can go well to windward when there is sufficient depth and yet go into shallow water with the keel up. I don't understand your preference for swing keel in shallow water, unless we are not talking about the same thing. To me, a swing keel is what the deep ocean racers have, with a heavy bulb at the bottom that can be swung to one side to provide better stiffness on a long tack. In restricted shallow water that would be useless since when you tack there would be insufficient water to swing the keel down and hoist it up the other side. |
#7
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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my next dream boat...
"Edgar" wrote in message ... "mmc" wrote in message ng.com... Agreed. Shallow water is the reason for my preference of a swing keel. I'm just off the Indian River Lagoon, where (as I'm sure you know), except for a few spots in our area, sailing is pretty much restricted to the ICW channel for boats with more than 4' draft. These open areas are mostly deep enough but I've done my share of sandbar hopping on a friends 27 Hunter with 4'2" draft. There's the ocean too, but we're about 5 boat hours from the inlet which doesn't allow for "just hop on the boat" outings. For shallow water I think that a centreboard is best if you want a boat that can go well to windward when there is sufficient depth and yet go into shallow water with the keel up. I don't understand your preference for swing keel in shallow water, unless we are not talking about the same thing. To me, a swing keel is what the deep ocean racers have, with a heavy bulb at the bottom that can be swung to one side to provide better stiffness on a long tack. In restricted shallow water that would be useless since when you tack there would be insufficient water to swing the keel down and hoist it up the other side. We're talking about the same thing. I've always understood a swing keel as the as the type that is drawn in a arc (pivoting on a pin at the top) into a trunk, either under the boat or inside the cabin as in the Freedoms. But then, I could have been using the wrong terminology for a long time now! I beleive the term for a type you describe that pivots side to side is "Canting Ballast". |
#8
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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my next dream boat...
"mmc" wrote in message ng.com... "Edgar" wrote in message I don't understand your preference for swing keel in shallow water, unless we are not talking about the same thing. To me, a swing keel is what the deep ocean racers have, with a heavy bulb at the bottom that can be swung to one side to provide better stiffness on a long tack. In restricted shallow water that would be useless since when you tack there would be insufficient water to swing the keel down and hoist it up the other side. We're talking about the same thing. I've always understood a swing keel as the as the type that is drawn in a arc (pivoting on a pin at the top) into a trunk, either under the boat or inside the cabin as in the Freedoms. But then, I could have been using the wrong terminology for a long time now! I beleive the term for a type you describe that pivots side to side is "Canting Ballast". Ah yes. We are talking about the same thing, which I call a centreboard. That is surely the right way to go if you want shallow water capability with good windward performance when depth of water allows. Never heard the term 'canting ballast' although once heard it is self explanatory, but that is what I have always regarded as a 'swing keel'. |
#9
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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my next dream boat...
wrote in message ... On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:17:03 -0400, "mmc" wrote: "Edgar" wrote in message ... "mmc" wrote in message ng.com... Agreed. Shallow water is the reason for my preference of a swing keel. I'm just off the Indian River Lagoon, where (as I'm sure you know), except for a few spots in our area, sailing is pretty much restricted to the ICW channel for boats with more than 4' draft. These open areas are mostly deep enough but I've done my share of sandbar hopping on a friends 27 Hunter with 4'2" draft. There's the ocean too, but we're about 5 boat hours from the inlet which doesn't allow for "just hop on the boat" outings. For shallow water I think that a centreboard is best if you want a boat that can go well to windward when there is sufficient depth and yet go into shallow water with the keel up. I don't understand your preference for swing keel in shallow water, unless we are not talking about the same thing. To me, a swing keel is what the deep ocean racers have, with a heavy bulb at the bottom that can be swung to one side to provide better stiffness on a long tack. In restricted shallow water that would be useless since when you tack there would be insufficient water to swing the keel down and hoist it up the other side. We're talking about the same thing. I've always understood a swing keel as the as the type that is drawn in a arc (pivoting on a pin at the top) into a trunk, either under the boat or inside the cabin as in the Freedoms. But then, I could have been using the wrong terminology for a long time now! I beleive the term for a type you describe that pivots side to side is "Canting Ballast". I've always thought of a swing keel as being a centerboard that is also substantial ballast. Yes, some are and some are not heavy. I have raced dinghies with cb's weighing almost 200 pounds and others where the cb was plywood for lightness with a slug of lead cast in to ensure it stayed down. |
#10
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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my next dream boat...
In article , Edgar wrote:
For shallow water I think that a centreboard is best if you want a boat that can go well to windward when there is sufficient depth and yet go into shallow water with the keel up. I don't understand your preference for swing keel in shallow water, unless we are not talking about the same thing. To me, a swing keel is what the deep ocean racers have, with a heavy bulb at the bottom that can be swung to one side to provide better stiffness on a long tack. In restricted shallow water that would be useless since when you tack there would be insufficient water to swing the keel down and hoist it up the other side. I think you'll find that is called "canting". Swing tends to be in a fore-aft direction; forward is down, wind the rope/cable and it rise aftward into a casing. Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea. |
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