"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...
is a Freedom 33 Cat Ketch. I like the semi-traditional look, the
uniqueness (is this a word?) of the cat ketch rig in a (more) modern
yachts and, from following the Yahoo owners group, the dedication
displayed by the owners for these boats.
I like the 36 too but not real fond of the big bump out in the cockpit
created by the aft cabin. We (the family and I) enjoy a large(r) cockpit
and this arrangement wouldn't work for us.
I'd like a shoal draft/swing keel but like the openess of the cabin with
the fixed keel (swing keel version has the trunk bisecting the salon), but
can't have everything so probably settle for the fixed keel.
I've seen other more recent cat ketches but most look like most other
modern boats that just happen to have this rig, almost as an after thought
while the Freedoms maintain some of the "chunkyness" of the old cat boats.
Not looking for screaming speed or to wow the dock walkers, but more the
comfort, design, ease of use and style of these boats.
Just trying to start a boat/cruising related discussion.
What do you guys think?

The advantage of the swing keel in a smaller sailboat, besides sailing in
shallow waters, is the ability to easily launch/retrieve & tow.
With a 36 boat, I'd be more concerned about stability in heavy seas... so
I'd stick with a fixed keel.

Don White wrote:
"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...
is a Freedom 33 Cat Ketch. I like the semi-traditional look, the
uniqueness (is this a word?) of the cat ketch rig in a (more) modern
yachts and, from following the Yahoo owners group, the dedication
displayed by the owners for these boats.
I like the 36 too but not real fond of the big bump out in the cockpit
created by the aft cabin. We (the family and I) enjoy a large(r) cockpit
and this arrangement wouldn't work for us.
I'd like a shoal draft/swing keel but like the openess of the cabin with
the fixed keel (swing keel version has the trunk bisecting the salon), but
can't have everything so probably settle for the fixed keel.
I've seen other more recent cat ketches but most look like most other
modern boats that just happen to have this rig, almost as an after thought
while the Freedoms maintain some of the "chunkyness" of the old cat boats.
Not looking for screaming speed or to wow the dock walkers, but more the
comfort, design, ease of use and style of these boats.
Just trying to start a boat/cruising related discussion.
What do you guys think?

The advantage of the swing keel in a smaller sailboat, besides sailing in
shallow waters, is the ability to easily launch/retrieve & tow.
With a 36 boat, I'd be more concerned about stability in heavy seas... so
I'd stick with a fixed keel.



regardless of what it does to windward performance...

In article ,
says...
Don White wrote:
"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...
is a Freedom 33 Cat Ketch. I like the semi-traditional look, the
uniqueness (is this a word?) of the cat ketch rig in a (more) modern
yachts and, from following the Yahoo owners group, the dedication
displayed by the owners for these boats.
I like the 36 too but not real fond of the big bump out in the cockpit
created by the aft cabin. We (the family and I) enjoy a large(r) cockpit
and this arrangement wouldn't work for us.
I'd like a shoal draft/swing keel but like the openess of the cabin with
the fixed keel (swing keel version has the trunk bisecting the salon), but
can't have everything so probably settle for the fixed keel.
I've seen other more recent cat ketches but most look like most other
modern boats that just happen to have this rig, almost as an after thought
while the Freedoms maintain some of the "chunkyness" of the old cat boats.
Not looking for screaming speed or to wow the dock walkers, but more the
comfort, design, ease of use and style of these boats.
Just trying to start a boat/cruising related discussion.
What do you guys think?

The advantage of the swing keel in a smaller sailboat, besides sailing in
shallow waters, is the ability to easily launch/retrieve & tow.
With a 36 boat, I'd be more concerned about stability in heavy seas... so
I'd stick with a fixed keel.



regardless of what it does to windward performance...

Until you get into the classes like the America's Cup yachts, with
their tilting keels, doesn't a fixed keel improve windward
performance?

Mark Borgerson

Mark Borgerson wrote:
In article ,
says...
Don White wrote:
"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...
is a Freedom 33 Cat Ketch. I like the semi-traditional look, the
uniqueness (is this a word?) of the cat ketch rig in a (more) modern
yachts and, from following the Yahoo owners group, the dedication
displayed by the owners for these boats.
I like the 36 too but not real fond of the big bump out in the cockpit
created by the aft cabin. We (the family and I) enjoy a large(r) cockpit
and this arrangement wouldn't work for us.
I'd like a shoal draft/swing keel but like the openess of the cabin with
the fixed keel (swing keel version has the trunk bisecting the salon), but
can't have everything so probably settle for the fixed keel.
I've seen other more recent cat ketches but most look like most other
modern boats that just happen to have this rig, almost as an after thought
while the Freedoms maintain some of the "chunkyness" of the old cat boats.
Not looking for screaming speed or to wow the dock walkers, but more the
comfort, design, ease of use and style of these boats.
Just trying to start a boat/cruising related discussion.
What do you guys think?
The advantage of the swing keel in a smaller sailboat, besides sailing in
shallow waters, is the ability to easily launch/retrieve & tow.
With a 36 boat, I'd be more concerned about stability in heavy seas... so
I'd stick with a fixed keel.


regardless of what it does to windward performance...

Until you get into the classes like the America's Cup yachts, with
their tilting keels, doesn't a fixed keel improve windward
performance?

Mark Borgerson


Yeah. That's what I was trying to get at.

On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:05:39 -0700, Mark Borgerson
wrote:

Until you get into the classes like the America's Cup yachts, with
their tilting keels, doesn't a fixed keel improve windward
performance?

The problem arises when you sail in an area with a lot of shallow
water. The swing keel is a compromise but it will give you better
performance than a shallow fixed keel.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:05:39 -0700, Mark Borgerson
wrote:

Until you get into the classes like the America's Cup yachts, with
their tilting keels, doesn't a fixed keel improve windward
performance?

The problem arises when you sail in an area with a lot of shallow
water. The swing keel is a compromise but it will give you better
performance than a shallow fixed keel.

Agreed. Shallow water is the reason for my preference of a swing keel. I'm
just off the Indian River Lagoon, where (as I'm sure you know), except for a
few spots in our area, sailing is pretty much restricted to the ICW channel
for boats with more than 4' draft. These open areas are mostly deep enough
but I've done my share of sandbar hopping on a friends 27 Hunter with 4'2"
draft. There's the ocean too, but we're about 5 boat hours from the inlet
which doesn't allow for "just hop on the boat" outings.

"mmc" wrote in message
ng.com...
Agreed. Shallow water is the reason for my preference of a swing keel.
I'm
just off the Indian River Lagoon, where (as I'm sure you know), except for
a few spots in our area, sailing is pretty much restricted to the ICW
channel for boats with more than 4' draft. These open areas are mostly
deep enough but I've done my share of sandbar hopping on a friends 27
Hunter with 4'2" draft. There's the ocean too, but we're about 5 boat
hours from the inlet which doesn't allow for "just hop on the boat"
outings.
For shallow water I think that a centreboard is best if you want a boat that
can go well to windward when there is sufficient depth and yet go into
shallow water with the keel up.
I don't understand your preference for swing keel in shallow water, unless
we are not talking about the same thing. To me, a swing keel is what the
deep ocean racers have, with a heavy bulb at the bottom that can be swung to
one side to provide better stiffness on a long tack. In restricted shallow
water that would be useless since when you tack there would be insufficient
water to swing the keel down and hoist it up the other side.

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"mmc" wrote in message
ng.com...
Agreed. Shallow water is the reason for my preference of a swing keel.
I'm
just off the Indian River Lagoon, where (as I'm sure you know), except
for a few spots in our area, sailing is pretty much restricted to the ICW
channel for boats with more than 4' draft. These open areas are mostly
deep enough but I've done my share of sandbar hopping on a friends 27
Hunter with 4'2" draft. There's the ocean too, but we're about 5 boat
hours from the inlet which doesn't allow for "just hop on the boat"
outings.
For shallow water I think that a centreboard is best if you want a boat
that can go well to windward when there is sufficient depth and yet go
into shallow water with the keel up.
I don't understand your preference for swing keel in shallow water,
unless we are not talking about the same thing. To me, a swing keel is
what the deep ocean racers have, with a heavy bulb at the bottom that can
be swung to one side to provide better stiffness on a long tack. In
restricted shallow water that would be useless since when you tack there
would be insufficient water to swing the keel down and hoist it up the
other side.

We're talking about the same thing. I've always understood a swing keel as
the as the type that is drawn in a arc (pivoting on a pin at the top) into a
trunk, either under the boat or inside the cabin as in the Freedoms.
But then, I could have been using the wrong terminology for a long time now!
I beleive the term for a type you describe that pivots side to side is
"Canting Ballast".

In article , Edgar wrote:
For shallow water I think that a centreboard is best if you want a boat that
can go well to windward when there is sufficient depth and yet go into
shallow water with the keel up.
I don't understand your preference for swing keel in shallow water, unless
we are not talking about the same thing. To me, a swing keel is what the
deep ocean racers have, with a heavy bulb at the bottom that can be swung to
one side to provide better stiffness on a long tack. In restricted shallow
water that would be useless since when you tack there would be insufficient
water to swing the keel down and hoist it up the other side.

I think you'll find that is called "canting". Swing tends to be in a
fore-aft direction; forward is down, wind the rope/cable and it rise
aftward into a casing.

Justin.

--
Justin C, by the sea.

On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 18:43:05 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote:

To me, a swing keel is what the
deep ocean racers have, with a heavy bulb at the bottom that can be swung to
one side to provide better stiffness on a long tack.

No, what you describe is called a "canting keel", expensive and very
rare.

A swing keel is really a centerboard that pivots fore and aft.