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sailing junk
Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet.
going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk. traditional building methods and all that. but i need some info from cruisers about layout as i draft the plans. Ive spent most of my life on work boats and have no real clue as to what a comfortable house layout would be. yes i know there is a building group but most of the folks there are not cruising over long distances. so here is the list of stuff i am working on. Ive got a relatively large amount of space to play with, excluding a center hold of about 15 by 15. I figure a small forepeak trunk for visitors and a gen set. engine, batteries etc. under benches and behind ladders 1. food storage. 2.galley lay out. 3. salon layout. 4.head 5. state room lay out. what accommodation plans for which boats do you find easy to use, comfortable, logical and easy to maintain. |
sailing junk
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:50:29 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote: Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet. going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk. traditional building methods and all that. but i need some info from cruisers about layout as i draft the plans. Ive spent most of my life on work boats and have no real clue as to what a comfortable house layout would be. yes i know there is a building group but most of the folks there are not cruising over long distances. so here is the list of stuff i am working on. Ive got a relatively large amount of space to play with, excluding a center hold of about 15 by 15. I figure a small forepeak trunk for visitors and a gen set. engine, batteries etc. under benches and behind ladders 1. food storage. 2.galley lay out. 3. salon layout. 4.head 5. state room lay out. what accommodation plans for which boats do you find easy to use, comfortable, logical and easy to maintain. Good questions but the answers depend - Is the boat going to be sailed at sea in potentially rough conditions? If so, how many days of sea stores? Fuel and water requirements? Are we talking about a 50 footer with full keel? What about the center hold - fish, dry cargo ? Walk through or not? How many crew? Deck layout - pilot house, center cockpit, aft cockpit? |
sailing junk
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:50:29 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote: Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet. going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk. traditional building methods and all that. but i need some info from cruisers about layout as i draft the plans. Ive spent most of my life on work boats and have no real clue as to what a comfortable house layout would be. yes i know there is a building group but most of the folks there are not cruising over long distances. so here is the list of stuff i am working on. Ive got a relatively large amount of space to play with, excluding a center hold of about 15 by 15. I figure a small forepeak trunk for visitors and a gen set. engine, batteries etc. under benches and behind ladders 1. food storage. 2.galley lay out. 3. salon layout. 4.head 5. state room lay out. what accommodation plans for which boats do you find easy to use, comfortable, logical and easy to maintain. You are using two terms that are totally different. Sampans and Junks are totally different.. Different hull form and different construction entirely. From your description I suspect that you are talking about a junk as a sampan is pretty much a flat bottomed rowing skiff. As a Junk has a nearly square hull cross section there is an amazing amount of room in them compared to a conventional western sail boat. They are also slower :-) The living space on a real junk is almost always in the stern, amidships is hold and forward is not much more then a cubby. A friend designed the interior of his boat using a sliding scale based on how much time he spent in a spot to calculate the size. He reckoned that he spent very little time in the Head so it was just big enough to back in and squat. He only slept in the sleeping compartment so it was only slightly larger then the bunk. His wife really liked to cook so there was a fairly large galley and finally they reckoned that they spent most of their time in the salon so it had the most room. I was aboard his boat any number of times and it did seem pretty spacious for a 38 ft. boat. Food storage. If you plan to live aboard you probably want a fridge. There are two basic systems Electric (12 VDC) driven and engine driven. You can have a eutectic system with either type of power but a conventional refrigerator will be electric. My air cooled condenser 12 VDC fridge draws about 5 amps when the compressor runs and it runs about half eh time - say 60 AH/day. More modern ones use appreciably less electricity. An engine driven one will require running the engine at least once a day and sometimes more often but if you are anchored out you will probably run your engine regularly to keep the batteries up anyway. Or have a bunch of solar panels. Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
sailing junk
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:56:15 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Heh, good question. |
sailing junk
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:56:15 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Heh, good question. You're not going into coffee shipping, are you??? Leanne |
sailing junk
On Feb 25, 4:56 am, Bruce in Bangkok decypher-
wrote: On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:50:29 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet. going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk. traditional building methods and all that. but i need some info from cruisers about layout as i draft the plans. Ive spent most of my life on work boats and have no real clue as to what a comfortable house layout would be. yes i know there is a building group but most of the folks there are not cruising over long distances. so here is the list of stuff i am working on. Ive got a relatively large amount of space to play with, excluding a center hold of about 15 by 15. I figure a small forepeak trunk for visitors and a gen set. engine, batteries etc. under benches and behind ladders 1. food storage. 2.galley lay out. 3. salon layout. 4.head 5. state room lay out. what accommodation plans for which boats do you find easy to use, comfortable, logical and easy to maintain. You are using two terms that are totally different. Sampans and Junks are totally different.. Different hull form and different construction entirely. From your description I suspect that you are talking about a junk as a sampan is pretty much a flat bottomed rowing skiff. As a Junk has a nearly square hull cross section there is an amazing amount of room in them compared to a conventional western sail boat. They are also slower :-) The living space on a real junk is almost always in the stern, amidships is hold and forward is not much more then a cubby. A friend designed the interior of his boat using a sliding scale based on how much time he spent in a spot to calculate the size. He reckoned that he spent very little time in the Head so it was just big enough to back in and squat. He only slept in the sleeping compartment so it was only slightly larger then the bunk. His wife really liked to cook so there was a fairly large galley and finally they reckoned that they spent most of their time in the salon so it had the most room. I was aboard his boat any number of times and it did seem pretty spacious for a 38 ft. boat. Food storage. If you plan to live aboard you probably want a fridge. There are two basic systems Electric (12 VDC) driven and engine driven. You can have a eutectic system with either type of power but a conventional refrigerator will be electric. My air cooled condenser 12 VDC fridge draws about 5 amps when the compressor runs and it runs about half eh time - say 60 AH/day. More modern ones use appreciably less electricity. An engine driven one will require running the engine at least once a day and sometimes more often but if you are anchored out you will probably run your engine regularly to keep the batteries up anyway. Or have a bunch of solar panels. Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Actually i am talking about two different boats here and i am very well aware of the differences between the hull forms. the sampan is to use the traditional building methods before i build a fifty foot junk. planks with floors and bulkheads are not like the western skeleton with planks, the whole mind set and assumption base is different. however both sampans and junks are built with the same methods. building with the traditional methods is what i do. yep i like house aft boats. part of the below decks area froward is for machinery. gen set, water maker, the noisy stuff. with a small accommodation for guests or kids.partially trunked. LOL everyone i show the plans to tells me that junks are slow and don't go to the wind as well as western boats. I don't want a race boat i want a cruising boat. more important to me is the comfort and distance capability, might take me longer to arrive but i can have a nice ride. I figure the junk will be my last boat and its gotta travel well for long transits. that sliding scale sounds like a good idea got the electrical covered it will be 12 volt solar/wind with a generator backup. I am going to put electric moters in this so i will have two battery banks. one for house and bridge power and one for propulsion with a crossover just in case. Ahh the cargo hold. it will be able to be pumped full of water when the boat is running lite with no cargo or fishing; and dry when i need to transport bulk cargo. it will be able to take 22 full pallets of goods with room for dunnage or be hand stacked to get more cargo in. in my mind a boat must be able to pay her own way and normally this means hauling goods be they fish or dry to other places. since i figure we will be running up north i can make a bit of cash on bulk cargo for friends in the more remote villages ( i have already researched this option and spoken to many folks about this plan and most have agreed that if i offered this service i would have as much if not more work than i can handle). 22 pallets of box milk is a very valuable cargo in the chain since liquids cost dearly to fly. sides cargo holds make great playpens. |
sailing junk
Good questions but the answers depend - Is the boat going to be sailed at sea in potentially rough conditions? oh yes i figure the coast of Alaska, out in the chain as far as attu the remote islands in the arctic, the south pacific, down the west coast of south America, the African continent, selected parts of Asia, and the a few trips to the med. If so, how many days of sea stores? Fuel and water requirements? I am figuring 60 days of water (about 700 gal with a reserve, i have not decided yet weather to cut this down due to water maker ) and stores the longest transit would be the coconut milk run of almost 3000 miles. fuel for 100 hours at working loads so call it 200 gal (hydro for cargo gear, generator (augmented with solar and wind), water maker and cook stove) Are we talking about a 50 footer with full keel? yes What about the center hold - fish, dry cargo ? both. depending on need. Walk through or not? not walk through. How many crew? max crew of four adults, mostly will run with two crew I expect kids will be involved in here someplace. Deck layout - pilot house, center cockpit, aft cockpit? aft Pilot house slaved aux station forward of house at deck level, center water tight hold, small coffin forepeak. |
sailing junk
On Feb 25, 9:49 am, "Leanne" wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:56:15 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Heh, good question. You're not going into coffee shipping, are you??? Leanne naa that cargo is not worth transporting by boat its cheaper to fly. the things i am thinking of hauling are durable and costly to fly. I might make less money but i wont have to deal with the authorities trying to shoot me out of the water. all in all a good trade. |
sailing junk
On Feb 25, 1:01*pm, Two meter troll wrote:
On Feb 25, 9:49 am, "Leanne" wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:56:15 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Heh, good question. You're not going into coffee shipping, are you??? Leanne naa that cargo is not worth transporting by boat its cheaper to fly. the things i am thinking of hauling are durable and costly to fly. I might make less money but i wont have to deal with the authorities trying to shoot me out of the water. all in all a good trade. Are you going to be hauling cargo for hire? Or just trading stuff on the sly? Have you ever taken a cargo boat with stuff in i'ts hold into another country? Coffee is a very durable cargo green. You can carry alot in a very small space. 20'x8'x8'6" can carry around 50,000 lbs or 40'x8'x8'6" can carry 100 thousand. Good luck on the Junk, I would love to have one, but feel they are more suited for near coastal and harbor work. I'd consider Kawlon Harbor and buying vs building new...go with a ming dynasty design. If you build, will it be steel? Do you have a boat now? I saw you mentioned Work boats, what type of work? Joe |
sailing junk
On Feb 25, 1:38*pm, Joe wrote:
On Feb 25, 1:01*pm, Two meter troll wrote: On Feb 25, 9:49 am, "Leanne" wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:56:15 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Heh, good question. You're not going into coffee shipping, are you??? Leanne naa that cargo is not worth transporting by boat its cheaper to fly. the things i am thinking of hauling are durable and costly to fly. I might make less money but i wont have to deal with the authorities trying to shoot me out of the water. all in all a good trade. *Are you going to be hauling cargo for hire? Or just trading stuff on the sly? Have you ever taken a cargo boat with stuff in i'ts hold into another country? Coffee is a very durable cargo green. You can carry alot in a very small space. 20'x8'x8'6" can carry around 50,000 lbs or 40'x8'x8'6" can carry 100 thousand. *Good luck on the Junk, I would love to have one, but feel they are more suited for near coastal and harbor work. I'd consider Kawlon Harbor and buying vs building new...go with a ming dynasty design. If you build, will it be steel? Do you have a boat now? *I saw you mentioned Work boats, what type of work? Joe- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Forgot to mention, Junks are slow, not that slow is bad all the time, just fast is better. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC2AG...e=channel_page Joe |
sailing junk
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:53:20 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote: Good questions but the answers depend - Is the boat going to be sailed at sea in potentially rough conditions? oh yes i figure the coast of Alaska, out in the chain as far as attu the remote islands in the arctic, the south pacific, down the west coast of south America, the African continent, selected parts of Asia, and the a few trips to the med. If so, how many days of sea stores? Fuel and water requirements? I am figuring 60 days of water (about 700 gal with a reserve, i have not decided yet weather to cut this down due to water maker ) and stores the longest transit would be the coconut milk run of almost 3000 miles. fuel for 100 hours at working loads so call it 200 gal (hydro for cargo gear, generator (augmented with solar and wind), water maker and cook stove) Are we talking about a 50 footer with full keel? yes What about the center hold - fish, dry cargo ? both. depending on need. Walk through or not? not walk through. How many crew? max crew of four adults, mostly will run with two crew I expect kids will be involved in here someplace. Deck layout - pilot house, center cockpit, aft cockpit? aft Pilot house slaved aux station forward of house at deck level, center water tight hold, small coffin forepeak. Alright, I can visualize that. You're going to want a small head forward if there are going to be people bunked up there, and there is no walk-thru aft. It doesn't need a shower unless you want one for backup, or you anticipate 4 people on board most of the time. I'd put the head on one side just forward of the bulkhead and match it with a hanging locker on the other side. You'll also need someplace for wet foul weather gear, perhaps behind the stairs. Personal gear can go on shelves over the bunks which also act as hull stiffeners, there should also be room for storage drawers under the bunks. The bunks will need lee cloths or bunk boards of course. That pretty much takes care of the forepeak. Aft, you have to decide how much you want in the pilot house. At a minimum you need a flat surface for charting and a hanging space for wet foulies. A bunk is also nice, and if you go bigger you could have a small dinette and galley. Either way, the galley sink should be close to the centerline, especially if below. Aft and down below, you've got to carve up the space for safety reasons. You do not want the possibility of being wave tossed all the way across a 15 ft beam. You'll also need to figure out what kind of sleeping arrangements you want. What works well in port does not work well underway so you may need some small sea bunks tucked away that can double as shelves when not used for sleeping. A dining table that folds up against a bulkhead makes good use of space. Make sure you install lots of hand holds, especially in the more open spaces and near the stairs. I would save the very aft end of the boat as a storage lazarette for bulky or heavy items - motor oil drums, dock gear, spare anchors, chain, etc. The aft head needs a shower of course, and for the female crew, decent lighting and mirrors. |
sailing junk
On Feb 25, 1:58*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 11:55:10 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: On Feb 25, 1:38*pm, Joe wrote: On Feb 25, 1:01*pm, Two meter troll wrote: On Feb 25, 9:49 am, "Leanne" wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:56:15 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Heh, good question. You're not going into coffee shipping, are you??? Leanne naa that cargo is not worth transporting by boat its cheaper to fly. the things i am thinking of hauling are durable and costly to fly. I might make less money but i wont have to deal with the authorities trying to shoot me out of the water. all in all a good trade. *Are you going to be hauling cargo for hire? Or just trading stuff on the sly? Have you ever taken a cargo boat with stuff in i'ts hold into another country? Coffee is a very durable cargo green. You can carry alot in a very small space. 20'x8'x8'6" can carry around 50,000 lbs or 40'x8'x8'6" can carry 100 thousand. *Good luck on the Junk, I would love to have one, but feel they are more suited for near coastal and harbor work. I'd consider Kawlon Harbor and buying vs building new...go with a ming dynasty design. If you build, will it be steel? Do you have a boat now? *I saw you mentioned Work boats, what type of work? Joe- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Forgot to mention, Junks are slow, not that slow is bad all the time, just fast is better. Junks are known for their seaworthiness. They tend to reach their destinations, regardless of what they encounter on the way.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Hi Mike, Yes they are, I checked out many in Hong Kong back in the 80's. Most were over a hundred years old. Very sturdy, first ever to incorporate water tight compartments. Have you heard of Khan's lost fleet? Joe |
sailing junk
On Feb 25, 11:38 am, Joe wrote:
On Feb 25, 1:01 pm, Two meter troll wrote: On Feb 25, 9:49 am, "Leanne" wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:56:15 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Heh, good question. You're not going into coffee shipping, are you??? Leanne naa that cargo is not worth transporting by boat its cheaper to fly. the things i am thinking of hauling are durable and costly to fly. I might make less money but i wont have to deal with the authorities trying to shoot me out of the water. all in all a good trade. Are you going to be hauling cargo for hire? Or just trading stuff on the sly? probably a bit of both if on the sly you mean taking cargo up to remote places in the arctic for friends that dont have boats to carry bulk goods from the lower 48. ive done that for years. Have you ever taken a cargo boat with stuff in i'ts hold into another country? yep its not to bad as long as you go point to point. stopping in the little ports coast hopping is a good way to go broke. Every inspector expects a bit of ba-keesh. Coffee is a very durable cargo green. You can carry alot in a very small space. 20'x8'x8'6" can carry around 50,000 lbs or 40'x8'x8'6" can carry 100 thousand. however Coffee is also a drug smugglers cargo. i would rather not have my cargo ripped apart at every stop. and i don't want a whole passel of mutts on my boat. Good luck on the Junk, I would love to have one, but feel they are more suited for near coastal and harbor work. I like building boats this one will be number 7 and the third of over 30 feet. I'd consider Kawlon Harbor and buying vs building new...go with a ming dynasty design. http://www.chrisdixonstudios.com/hcs...reenwidth=1024 If you build, will it be steel? not if i am sane. wood Doug fir, myrtle wood and PO cedar specifically Do you have a boat now? yep 3 and more i can lay my hands to. two of those are 28 and 30 foot skin on frame student boats. I saw you mentioned Work boats, what type of work? King crabbing, salmon trolling, Cargo, tendering and oil exploration OBC and streamer. Joe |
sailing junk
On Feb 25, 2:49*pm, Two meter troll wrote:
On Feb 25, 11:38 am, Joe wrote: On Feb 25, 1:01 pm, Two meter troll wrote: On Feb 25, 9:49 am, "Leanne" wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:56:15 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Heh, good question. You're not going into coffee shipping, are you??? Leanne naa that cargo is not worth transporting by boat its cheaper to fly. the things i am thinking of hauling are durable and costly to fly. I might make less money but i wont have to deal with the authorities trying to shoot me out of the water. all in all a good trade. *Are you going to be hauling cargo for hire? Or just trading stuff on the sly? probably a bit of both if on the sly you mean taking cargo up to remote places in the arctic for friends that dont have boats to carry bulk goods from the lower 48. ive done that for years. Thats perfectly legal. Alaska is America. Good plan Have you ever taken a cargo boat with stuff in i'ts hold into another country? yep its not to bad as long as you go point to point. stopping in the little ports coast hopping is a good way to go broke. Every inspector expects a bit of ba-keesh. Indeed, stopping anywhere you can expect to toss some lan-yap Coffee is a very durable cargo green. You can carry alot in a very small space. 20'x8'x8'6" can carry around 50,000 lbs or 40'x8'x8'6" can carry 100 thousand. however Coffee is also a drug smugglers cargo. I have not heard that. Can you poimt to an example of that? True C.A. is full of drug dealers, and thats the closest source of beans, but ive never heard of that. Someone trying to smuggle an ounce on the boat in a coffee can maybe i would rather not have my cargo ripped apart at every stop. and i don't want a whole passel of mutts on my boat. Well if you stay in the US and haul for friends you should not have any problems what so ever. *Good luck on the Junk, I would love to have one, but feel they are more suited for near coastal and harbor work. I like building boats this one will be number 7 and the third of over 30 feet. I'd consider Kawlon Harbor and buying vs building new...go with a ming dynasty design. http://www.chrisdixonstudios.com/hcs...s/gallery.php?... If you build, will it be steel? not if i am sane. *wood Doug fir, myrtle wood and PO cedar specifically Ok traditional junk-50 ft= 25 acres of lumber..But the value of the junks in china is the old growth mahogany and teak. Do you have a boat now? yep 3 and more i can lay my hands to. two of those are 28 and 30 foot skin on frame student boats. *I saw you mentioned Work boats, what type of work? King crabbing, salmon trolling, Cargo, tendering and oil exploration OBC and streamer. buuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Joe Joe- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
sailing junk
Are you going to be hauling cargo for hire? Or just trading stuff on the sly? probably a bit of both if on the sly you mean taking cargo up to remote places in the arctic for friends that dont have boats to carry bulk goods from the lower 48. ive done that for years. Thats perfectly legal. Alaska is America. Good plan Have you ever taken a cargo boat with stuff in i'ts hold into another country? yep its not to bad as long as you go point to point. stopping in the little ports coast hopping is a good way to go broke. Every inspector expects a bit of ba-keesh. Indeed, stopping anywhere you can expect to toss some lan-yap however Coffee is also a drug smugglers cargo. I have not heard that. Can you poimt to an example of that? True C.A. is full of drug dealers, and thats the closest source of beans, but ive never heard of that. Someone trying to smuggle an ounce on the boat in a coffee can maybe Maybe but if i know it as a rumor im pretty sure the CG and other inspectors will also. IMO the prevention of suspicion is better than the attention of suspicion. i will be getting the eye at any rate; from the various Homeland security folks in the US better to be as safe as i can. Well if you stay in the US and haul for friends you should not have any problems what so ever. oh i plan on getting around a bit more than that. however running cargo out side the US has its attendant difficulties and i will evaluate those as needed. the various bonding is an issue that is easy for a big company and not so for a small guy. wood Doug fir, myrtle wood and PO cedar specifically Ok traditional junk-50 ft= 25 acres of lumber..But the value of the junks in china is the old growth mahogany and teak. very true. however i have the wood here and the milling operations. if i was to get a boat built in china the only way to pay for the whole bang would be to fill the hull with those exotic woods and sail her home then finish the accommodation's. an aside is that i like myrtlewood fir and port orford cedar. its here its handy and its cheap. well, within reason. King crabbing, salmon trolling, Cargo, tendering and oil exploration OBC and streamer. buuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. its not to bad, winter can get a little bleak (I wintered over a couple of times in the high arctic), summer on the other hand is marvelous. i miss the tundra flowering in spring. get this boat done and we can skip the seasons we don't want to deal with |
sailing junk
On Feb 25, 11:57 am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:53:20 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: Good questions but the answers depend - Is the boat going to be sailed at sea in potentially rough conditions? oh yes i figure the coast of Alaska, out in the chain as far as attu the remote islands in the arctic, the south pacific, down the west coast of south America, the African continent, selected parts of Asia, and the a few trips to the med. If so, how many days of sea stores? Fuel and water requirements? I am figuring 60 days of water (about 700 gal with a reserve, i have not decided yet weather to cut this down due to water maker ) and stores the longest transit would be the coconut milk run of almost 3000 miles. fuel for 100 hours at working loads so call it 200 gal (hydro for cargo gear, generator (augmented with solar and wind), water maker and cook stove) Are we talking about a 50 footer with full keel? yes What about the center hold - fish, dry cargo ? both. depending on need. Walk through or not? not walk through. How many crew? max crew of four adults, mostly will run with two crew I expect kids will be involved in here someplace. Deck layout - pilot house, center cockpit, aft cockpit? aft Pilot house slaved aux station forward of house at deck level, center water tight hold, small coffin forepeak. Alright, I can visualize that. You're going to want a small head forward if there are going to be people bunked up there, and there is no walk-thru aft. It doesn't need a shower unless you want one for backup, or you anticipate 4 people on board most of the time. I'd put the head on one side just forward of the bulkhead and match it with a hanging locker on the other side. You'll also need someplace for wet foul weather gear, perhaps behind the stairs. Personal gear can go on shelves over the bunks which also act as hull stiffeners, there should also be room for storage drawers under the bunks. The bunks will need lee cloths or bunk boards of course. That pretty much takes care of the forepeak. Aft, you have to decide how much you want in the pilot house. At a minimum you need a flat surface for charting and a hanging space for wet foulies. I was thinking a wheel house station off to one side. with the salon taking up the rest of this level. ive never had a bridge that was ever empty of folks wanting to hang out. communications (VHS,single side band), radar, meters, wheel and nav station (Charts, plotter, and compass/gps). the deck level aux station would be bare bones since it will be used to do fine work or to have a helm close at hand while working on deck. A bunk is also nice, and if you go bigger you could have a small dinette and galley. Either way, the galley sink should be close to the centerline, especially if below. below decks would be galley, head, state room/s center lining the galley and head is a great idea. Aft and down below, you've got to carve up the space for safety reasons. You do not want the possibility of being wave tossed all the way across a 15 ft beam. I hadn't thought of this. You'll also need to figure out what kind of sleeping arrangements you want. What works well in port does not work well underway so you may need some small sea bunks tucked away that can double as shelves when not used for sleeping. A dining table that folds up against a bulkhead makes good use of space. Make sure you install lots of hand holds, especially in the more open spaces and near the stairs. this is going to be the tricky part due to my height; what is a good hand hold for me is not a good hand hold for shorter folks. I would save the very aft end of the boat as a storage lazarette for bulky or heavy items - motor oil drums, dock gear, spare anchors, chain, etc. The aft head needs a shower of course, and for the female crew, decent lighting and mirrors. ya the aft head is going to have to be bigger than i thought. the lazerette is a good idea i was thinking of a walk way around the house at deck level to allow for easy tying up. the fold up bunks would be good for a number of kids. coffin lockers in all the fixed bunks, I havent decided to put a third mast on the boat but at any rate i might put in a flying bridge just to enjoy the weather on all the works boats we just lash the drums to the rail on deck. i am trying to keep most of the main deck space free so it is easy to get around. Basically to my eye a junk is just a sailing version of the power scows we use for king crabbing. a bit more shape and much finer lines perhaps but all in all much the same layout. a sister ship to one of the boats i was on. http://flickr.com/photos/sacasea/2943249496/ |
sailing junk
On Feb 25, 3:46*pm, Two meter troll wrote:
*Are you going to be hauling cargo for hire? Or just trading stuff on the sly? probably a bit of both if on the sly you mean taking cargo up to remote places in the arctic for friends that dont have boats to carry bulk goods from the lower 48. ive done that for years. *Thats perfectly legal. Alaska is America. Good plan Have you ever taken a cargo boat with stuff in i'ts hold into another country? yep its not to bad as long as you go point to point. stopping in the little ports coast hopping is a good way to go broke. Every inspector expects a bit of ba-keesh. Indeed, stopping anywhere you can expect to toss some lan-yap however Coffee is also a drug smugglers cargo. I have not heard that. Can you poimt to an example of that? True C.A. is full of drug dealers, and thats the closest source of beans, but ive never heard of that. Someone trying to smuggle an ounce on the boat in a coffee can maybe Maybe but if i know it as a rumor im pretty sure the CG and other inspectors will also. IMO the prevention of suspicion is better than the attention of suspicion. i will be getting the eye at any rate; from the various Homeland security folks in the US better to be as safe as i can. Geeee the USCG guys I know look for junks coming back from backwoods Alaska loaded down with pot, it's worth more than any boat load of crab. And IIRC one of the biggest pot ports is in Canada on that side just north or the border. But if you are not doing anything illegal then its not going to be a problem. Well if you stay in the US and haul for friends you should not have any problems what so ever. oh i plan on getting around a bit more than that. however running cargo out side the US has its attendant difficulties and i will evaluate those as needed. the various bonding is an issue that is easy for a big company and not so for a small guy. *wood Doug fir, myrtle wood and PO cedar specifically Ok traditional junk-50 ft= 25 acres of lumber..But the value of the junks in china is the old growth mahogany and teak. very true. however i have the wood here and the milling operations. if i was to get a boat built in china the only way to pay for the whole bang would be to fill the hull with those exotic woods and sail her home then finish the accommodation's. All the old growth wood is long gone, Im talking 24" X 42" solid mahogany keels. Beware of importing "exotic woods" very tricky and you can loose your cargo real easy to restrictions and bans. an aside is that i like myrtlewood *fir and port orford cedar. its here its handy and its cheap. *well, within reason. Hey as long as it dont rot and holds up well in sal****er it should work. King crabbing, salmon trolling, Cargo, tendering and oil exploration OBC and streamer. buuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. its not to bad, winter can get a little bleak (I wintered over a couple of times in the high arctic), summer on the other hand is marvelous. *i miss the tundra flowering in spring. get this boat done and we can skip the seasons we don't want to deal with- Hide quoted text - Yeah that tundra in spring sounds nice, it's just that other 90% of the year thats the problem. Joe - Show quoted text - |
sailing junk
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 11:01:49 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote: On Feb 25, 9:49 am, "Leanne" wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:56:15 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Heh, good question. You're not going into coffee shipping, are you??? Leanne naa that cargo is not worth transporting by boat its cheaper to fly. the things i am thinking of hauling are durable and costly to fly. I might make less money but i wont have to deal with the authorities trying to shoot me out of the water. all in all a good trade. Sure. There were a couple of guys used to do that here in Thailand. Every month or so they'd come in and tie up at the marina, usually late in the evening. somebody would meet them and there would be a flurry of activity. Then you'd see them at the local restaurant for a late supper and next morning they'd be gone. Haven't seen them in a while so I suppose that either they got rich and retired or are living at government expense somewhere. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
sailing junk
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:20:43 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote: On Feb 25, 4:56 am, Bruce in Bangkok decypher- wrote: On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:50:29 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet. going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk. traditional building methods and all that. but i need some info from cruisers about layout as i draft the plans. Ive spent most of my life on work boats and have no real clue as to what a comfortable house layout would be. yes i know there is a building group but most of the folks there are not cruising over long distances. so here is the list of stuff i am working on. Ive got a relatively large amount of space to play with, excluding a center hold of about 15 by 15. I figure a small forepeak trunk for visitors and a gen set. engine, batteries etc. under benches and behind ladders 1. food storage. 2.galley lay out. 3. salon layout. 4.head 5. state room lay out. what accommodation plans for which boats do you find easy to use, comfortable, logical and easy to maintain. You are using two terms that are totally different. Sampans and Junks are totally different.. Different hull form and different construction entirely. From your description I suspect that you are talking about a junk as a sampan is pretty much a flat bottomed rowing skiff. As a Junk has a nearly square hull cross section there is an amazing amount of room in them compared to a conventional western sail boat. They are also slower :-) The living space on a real junk is almost always in the stern, amidships is hold and forward is not much more then a cubby. A friend designed the interior of his boat using a sliding scale based on how much time he spent in a spot to calculate the size. He reckoned that he spent very little time in the Head so it was just big enough to back in and squat. He only slept in the sleeping compartment so it was only slightly larger then the bunk. His wife really liked to cook so there was a fairly large galley and finally they reckoned that they spent most of their time in the salon so it had the most room. I was aboard his boat any number of times and it did seem pretty spacious for a 38 ft. boat. Food storage. If you plan to live aboard you probably want a fridge. There are two basic systems Electric (12 VDC) driven and engine driven. You can have a eutectic system with either type of power but a conventional refrigerator will be electric. My air cooled condenser 12 VDC fridge draws about 5 amps when the compressor runs and it runs about half eh time - say 60 AH/day. More modern ones use appreciably less electricity. An engine driven one will require running the engine at least once a day and sometimes more often but if you are anchored out you will probably run your engine regularly to keep the batteries up anyway. Or have a bunch of solar panels. Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Actually i am talking about two different boats here and i am very well aware of the differences between the hull forms. the sampan is to use the traditional building methods before i build a fifty foot junk. planks with floors and bulkheads are not like the western skeleton with planks, the whole mind set and assumption base is different. however both sampans and junks are built with the same methods. building with the traditional methods is what i do. yep i like house aft boats. part of the below decks area froward is for machinery. gen set, water maker, the noisy stuff. with a small accommodation for guests or kids.partially trunked. LOL everyone i show the plans to tells me that junks are slow and don't go to the wind as well as western boats. I don't want a race boat i want a cruising boat. more important to me is the comfort and distance capability, might take me longer to arrive but i can have a nice ride. I figure the junk will be my last boat and its gotta travel well for long transits. Junks are slow, mostly due to the large wetted area of most of them and they don't go to windward much better then a square rigger because of the sails. The Europeans, in the late 17 and 1800's rigged some junk hulls with Western sail plans ( called Lorchas I believe) to get better windward ability. On the other hand, the battened sails do make it real easy to reef; just lower the sail a bit. that sliding scale sounds like a good idea got the electrical covered it will be 12 volt solar/wind with a generator backup. I am going to put electric moters in this so i will have two battery banks. one for house and bridge power and one for propulsion with a crossover just in case. Ahh the cargo hold. it will be able to be pumped full of water when the boat is running lite with no cargo or fishing; and dry when i need to transport bulk cargo. it will be able to take 22 full pallets of goods with room for dunnage or be hand stacked to get more cargo in. in my mind a boat must be able to pay her own way and normally this means hauling goods be they fish or dry to other places. since i figure we will be running up north i can make a bit of cash on bulk cargo for friends in the more remote villages ( i have already researched this option and spoken to many folks about this plan and most have agreed that if i offered this service i would have as much if not more work than i can handle). 22 pallets of box milk is a very valuable cargo in the chain since liquids cost dearly to fly. sides cargo holds make great playpens. If you expect to sail to windward you will probably need either lee boards or center boards I suspect. Traditional junk hulls were built for either river and in-shore sailing or ocean sailing. Not both. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
sailing junk
Geeee the USCG guys I know look for junks coming back from backwoods Alaska loaded down with pot, it's worth more than any boat load of crab. And IIRC one of the biggest pot ports is in Canada on that side just north or the border. But if you are not doing anything illegal then its not going to be a problem. Heh like a person would use a big boat to move pot across that border. its a short Zode ride across the sound. best done at night several boats with no moon and a good muffler. sides i live in oregon why the heck would i import pot? very true. however i have the wood here and the milling operations. if i was to get a boat built in china the only way to pay for the whole bang would be to fill the hull with those exotic woods and sail her home then finish the accommodation's. All the old growth wood is long gone, Im talking 24" X 42" solid mahogany keels. Beware of importing "exotic woods" very tricky and you can loose your cargo real easy to restrictions and bans. thats pretty much the size of it. an aside is that i like myrtlewood fir and port orford cedar. its here its handy and its cheap. well, within reason. Hey as long as it dont rot and holds up well in sal****er it should work. just cause its not used in the east to build boats dont mean it aint good. folks built ships out of myrtle wood Doug fir is a moderate rot resistance and PO cedar will last practically forever. it would scale at mahogany, white oak and well PO cedar. like i said i have the access to the materials right here and can get custom cut OG if i want a solid keel 50 feet long i can get one. but frankly why? i am not so much of a traditionalist as to eschew the use of epoxy and a laminated keel is far better than a solid chunk of wood, i can build it to have all the curve and counter stress i need with out having to deal with grain runout, checking, rot pockets, termites, etc. and if i wish i can bury a few hundred pounds of lead in it. I might build traditional but i also realize that there are places where the tradition is to use the best passable solution. like covering the hull in epoxy and cloth. if i have a choice of protecting the materials the hull is composed of then i will do that. small price to pay for the lifetime of a boat. its not to bad, winter can get a little bleak (I wintered over a couple of times in the high arctic), summer on the other hand is marvelous. i miss the tundra flowering in spring. get this boat done and we can skip the seasons we don't want to deal with Yeah that tundra in spring sounds nice, it's just that other 90% of the year thats the problem. I like the summer as long as i am at sea during it. the folks on land have the problems with bugs. and southeast in winter is very much like oregon with a touch more snow. so i would say about half the year is not good. |
sailing junk
There were a couple of guys used to do that here in Thailand. Every month or so they'd come in and tie up at the marina, usually late in the evening. somebody would meet them and there would be a flurry of activity. Then you'd see them at the local restaurant for a late supper and next morning they'd be gone. Haven't seen them in a while so I suppose that either they got rich and retired or are living at government expense somewhere. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) pretty much why i wont smuggle stuff you only got three options and two of them stink on ice. |
sailing junk
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:50:29 -0800, someone posting as Two meter troll
purportedly wrote: Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet. going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk. a couple of questions... how old are you? (no I'm not being a smartass) how long do you predict it would take to build these two boats? I ask because I'm _seized_ with the notion of building the last boat I'll own. I'm 54, a few years from retiring and despite the siren call of the wood boat, I'm all too aware of the number of boats out there whose construction/restoration/refitting eats up a decade of the owner's life...and then goes on the market because of health/life issues. -- 58 days till re-launch...STFU Larry...I don't live in SC |
sailing junk
On Feb 25, 5:26 pm, Bruce in Bangkok decypher-
wrote: On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:20:43 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: On Feb 25, 4:56 am, Bruce in Bangkok decypher- wrote: On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:50:29 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet.. going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk. traditional building methods and all that. but i need some info from cruisers about layout as i draft the plans. Ive spent most of my life on work boats and have no real clue as to what a comfortable house layout would be. yes i know there is a building group but most of the folks there are not cruising over long distances. so here is the list of stuff i am working on. Ive got a relatively large amount of space to play with, excluding a center hold of about 15 by 15. I figure a small forepeak trunk for visitors and a gen set. engine, batteries etc. under benches and behind ladders 1. food storage. 2.galley lay out. 3. salon layout. 4.head 5. state room lay out. what accommodation plans for which boats do you find easy to use, comfortable, logical and easy to maintain. You are using two terms that are totally different. Sampans and Junks are totally different.. Different hull form and different construction entirely. From your description I suspect that you are talking about a junk as a sampan is pretty much a flat bottomed rowing skiff. As a Junk has a nearly square hull cross section there is an amazing amount of room in them compared to a conventional western sail boat. They are also slower :-) The living space on a real junk is almost always in the stern, amidships is hold and forward is not much more then a cubby. A friend designed the interior of his boat using a sliding scale based on how much time he spent in a spot to calculate the size. He reckoned that he spent very little time in the Head so it was just big enough to back in and squat. He only slept in the sleeping compartment so it was only slightly larger then the bunk. His wife really liked to cook so there was a fairly large galley and finally they reckoned that they spent most of their time in the salon so it had the most room. I was aboard his boat any number of times and it did seem pretty spacious for a 38 ft. boat. Food storage. If you plan to live aboard you probably want a fridge. There are two basic systems Electric (12 VDC) driven and engine driven. You can have a eutectic system with either type of power but a conventional refrigerator will be electric. My air cooled condenser 12 VDC fridge draws about 5 amps when the compressor runs and it runs about half eh time - say 60 AH/day. More modern ones use appreciably less electricity. An engine driven one will require running the engine at least once a day and sometimes more often but if you are anchored out you will probably run your engine regularly to keep the batteries up anyway. Or have a bunch of solar panels. Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Actually i am talking about two different boats here and i am very well aware of the differences between the hull forms. the sampan is to use the traditional building methods before i build a fifty foot junk. planks with floors and bulkheads are not like the western skeleton with planks, the whole mind set and assumption base is different. however both sampans and junks are built with the same methods. building with the traditional methods is what i do. yep i like house aft boats. part of the below decks area froward is for machinery. gen set, water maker, the noisy stuff. with a small accommodation for guests or kids.partially trunked. LOL everyone i show the plans to tells me that junks are slow and don't go to the wind as well as western boats. I don't want a race boat i want a cruising boat. more important to me is the comfort and distance capability, might take me longer to arrive but i can have a nice ride. I figure the junk will be my last boat and its gotta travel well for long transits. Junks are slow, mostly due to the large wetted area of most of them and they don't go to windward much better then a square rigger because of the sails. The Europeans, in the late 17 and 1800's rigged some junk hulls with Western sail plans ( called Lorchas I believe) to get better windward ability. On the other hand, the battened sails do make it real easy to reef; just lower the sail a bit. that sliding scale sounds like a good idea got the electrical covered it will be 12 volt solar/wind with a generator backup. I am going to put electric moters in this so i will have two battery banks. one for house and bridge power and one for propulsion with a crossover just in case. Ahh the cargo hold. it will be able to be pumped full of water when the boat is running lite with no cargo or fishing; and dry when i need to transport bulk cargo. it will be able to take 22 full pallets of goods with room for dunnage or be hand stacked to get more cargo in. in my mind a boat must be able to pay her own way and normally this means hauling goods be they fish or dry to other places. since i figure we will be running up north i can make a bit of cash on bulk cargo for friends in the more remote villages ( i have already researched this option and spoken to many folks about this plan and most have agreed that if i offered this service i would have as much if not more work than i can handle). 22 pallets of box milk is a very valuable cargo in the chain since liquids cost dearly to fly. sides cargo holds make great playpens. If you expect to sail to windward you will probably need either lee boards or center boards I suspect. Traditional junk hulls were built for either river and in-shore sailing or ocean sailing. Not both. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) actually the lorchas are the other way round, western hulls with junk sails. I have been using a junk rig for several years now and have had no problems going to the wind. i might not get as high as you but i don't need to. yes i will need a center board forward of the main mast. arguing rigs like arguing religion is just to pass the time. no one will ever win the argument. a bit of reading from a ship modeling site. that has done allot of research (these type folks usually do) www.tara.bz "Product description: ¡°Lorcha¡±, or ¡°Lorch¡±, is a Portuguese word defined in the Oxford dictionary as ¡°a fast sailing craft built in China with the hull after a European model, but rigged in Chinese fashion, usually carrying guns.¡± The Chinese junkmen referred to the Lorcha as °× Óã ¿Ç ¡°bai yu ke¡± (¡°white fish shell¡±) or Ѽ ƨ ¹É ¡°ya pi gu¡± (¡°duck¡¯s buttock¡±). Common belief is that the Lorcha originated in the Portuguese territory of Macau. Ferdinand Mendez Pinto wrote in 1553 of a ¡°Lorch¡± four years before Macau was occupied by his countrymen. In 1517 the Portuguese first arrived at the port of Tamou (adjacent to Shangchuan Dao) and later settled in Ningpo. These early settlers may have built sailing vessels with finer and faster European hulls yet retaining the safer and easier handling of the unstayed Chinese junk or lugsail. C.A. Montalto de Jesus gave this description of the early Lorchas of Macau; ¡°built at the Inner Praya they were usually made of camphor or teak wood. Flat bottomed and shallow drafted they ranged in displacement size from 40 -150 tons. The number of guns ranged from 4 to 20 and from 1 to 24 pounds caliber, the larger guns mounted on swivels. The crew, half Portuguese and half Chinese, were armed with muskets, swords, hatchets and spears¡±. After being established in 1557 Macau soon became the most prosperous European trading centre in the Far East. The Lorcha first gained notoriety fighting Chinese pirate junks in Macau waters ¨C later the pirates used them. By the end of the 18th century more than 60,000 pirates on 600 pirate junks and 1,000 auxiliary craft plied the waters around Macau. The first Lorcha recorded by name was the ¡°Leao¡± which on 6 May 1807 under the command of Macanese pilot Antonio Goncalves Carocha along with the sloop ¡°Princeza Carlota¡± and the galley ¡°Arriaga¡± defeated an armada of 50 pirate junks. The Chinese Imperial Government was so impressed that in November 1809 they ordered six Lorchas to be made in Macau to accompany a fleet of 60 Imperial junks. It was not until 21st January 1810 that the pirates finally surrendered." |
sailing junk
"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message ... Junks are slow, mostly due to the large wetted area of most of them and they don't go to windward much better then a square rigger because of the sails. The Europeans, in the late 17 and 1800's rigged some junk hulls with Western sail plans ( called Lorchas I believe) to get better windward ability. Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Actually, I believe that "lorchas" are western hulls that have eastern lug (junk) rigs. |
sailing junk
On Feb 25, 6:06 pm, wordsmith wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:50:29 -0800, someone posting as Two meter troll purportedly wrote: Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet. going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk. a couple of questions... how old are you? (no I'm not being a smartass) how long do you predict it would take to build these two boats? I ask because I'm _seized_ with the notion of building the last boat I'll own. I'm 54, a few years from retiring and despite the siren call of the wood boat, I'm all too aware of the number of boats out there whose construction/restoration/refitting eats up a decade of the owner's life...and then goes on the market because of health/life issues. -- 58 days till re-launch...STFU Larry...I don't live in SC age 42. the thirty foot will take about a year if i laze around. the 50 will take probably three years at the outside, again if i laze around. the diffrence is the amount of interior finishing. almost all the systems are drop in. one reason for building traditional is the speed of the build. the other is that you plan the boat out in detale make what you can make before hand and dry fit it together leave a bit long so you have room to fine tune the job. Don't ask me why it takes some folks so long to build or fix a boat, I have no clue. |
sailing junk
On Feb 25, 2:50*am, Two meter troll wrote:
Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet. going to build it as a study for a *50'X16' or so foot junk. If you ever get down to Winchester Bay, OR there is one already built. Its brown. Some old geezer built it and been living on it for 10+ years. Bob |
sailing junk
On Feb 25, 7:06 pm, Bob wrote:
On Feb 25, 2:50 am, Two meter troll wrote: Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet. going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk. If you ever get down to Winchester Bay, OR there is one already built. Its brown. Some old geezer built it and been living on it for 10+ years. Bob lol ya ive been down there a few times. Bob |
sailing junk
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:32:48 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote: Aft and down below, you've got to carve up the space for safety reasons. You do not want the possibility of being wave tossed all the way across a 15 ft beam. I hadn't thought of this. It's a serious issue on bigger boats with a wide beam. I've been offshore twice with people who have broken ribs from being tossed across the cabin. |
sailing junk
On Feb 25, 7:57 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:32:48 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: Aft and down below, you've got to carve up the space for safety reasons. You do not want the possibility of being wave tossed all the way across a 15 ft beam. I hadn't thought of this. It's a serious issue on bigger boats with a wide beam. I've been offshore twice with people who have broken ribs from being tossed across the cabin. ive been on boats with wide open spaces inside but ive never been on one as small as 50' with big open spaces inside. it really would have never occurred to me. I suppose it would after someone got thrown. better to know it now. |
sailing junk
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:45:30 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote: just cause its not used in the east to build boats dont mean it aint good. folks built ships out of myrtle wood Doug fir is a moderate rot resistance and PO cedar will last practically forever. it would scale at mahogany, white oak and well PO cedar. like i said i have the access to the materials right here and can get custom cut OG if i want a solid keel 50 feet long i can get one. but frankly why? i am not so much of a traditionalist as to eschew the use of epoxy and a laminated keel is far better than a solid chunk of wood, i can build it to have all the curve and counter stress i need with out having to deal with grain runout, checking, rot pockets, termites, etc. and if i wish i can bury a few hundred pounds of lead in it. Some folks are really crazy over wood. I like it myself for some things. I put a new rafter in my garage a few years back and the only 2"x6"x25' I could get was Douglas Fir, and it had to be shipped in. I suppose they're using laminated for the longer runs in new construction now. From what I've seen, it's stronger than solid wood and without the downsides you mentioned. Back in the early '70's I made a full wall (12'x8') book case of redwood. I went to the lumber yard thinking pine, but the redwood was much cleaner (perfect really) and cost less than high grade pine! Wasn't as stiff, but design took care of that. My last house was full of oak woodwork - real pretty stuff. But when I pulled some off to refinish it I found it be light as a feather, it had dried so much in 50 years. Brittle of course, and you had to real careful to avoid splitting it. Never looked the same to me knowing that. Didn't even seem like real wood. More like good-looking cardboard. Since then I don't pay much attention to wood beyond it doing the job you set for it. Still like boiled linseed oil though. --Vic |
sailing junk
On Feb 25, 8:35 pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:45:30 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: just cause its not used in the east to build boats dont mean it aint good. folks built ships out of myrtle wood Doug fir is a moderate rot resistance and PO cedar will last practically forever. it would scale at mahogany, white oak and well PO cedar. like i said i have the access to the materials right here and can get custom cut OG if i want a solid keel 50 feet long i can get one. but frankly why? i am not so much of a traditionalist as to eschew the use of epoxy and a laminated keel is far better than a solid chunk of wood, i can build it to have all the curve and counter stress i need with out having to deal with grain runout, checking, rot pockets, termites, etc. and if i wish i can bury a few hundred pounds of lead in it. Some folks are really crazy over wood. I like it myself for some things. I put a new rafter in my garage a few years back and the only 2"x6"x25' I could get was Douglas Fir, and it had to be shipped in. I suppose they're using laminated for the longer runs in new construction now. From what I've seen, it's stronger than solid wood and without the downsides you mentioned. Back in the early '70's I made a full wall (12'x8') book case of redwood. I went to the lumber yard thinking pine, but the redwood was much cleaner (perfect really) and cost less than high grade pine! Wasn't as stiff, but design took care of that. My last house was full of oak woodwork - real pretty stuff. But when I pulled some off to refinish it I found it be light as a feather, it had dried so much in 50 years. Brittle of course, and you had to real careful to avoid splitting it. Never looked the same to me knowing that. Didn't even seem like real wood. More like good-looking cardboard. Since then I don't pay much attention to wood beyond it doing the job you set for it. Still like boiled linseed oil though. --Vic thats pretty much where i stand on it. tung oil, and Stockholm tar for me heated with a bit of bees wax. |
sailing junk
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:20:45 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote: On Feb 25, 5:26 pm, Bruce in Bangkok decypher- wrote: On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:20:43 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: On Feb 25, 4:56 am, Bruce in Bangkok decypher- wrote: On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:50:29 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet. going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk. traditional building methods and all that. but i need some info from cruisers about layout as i draft the plans. Ive spent most of my life on work boats and have no real clue as to what a comfortable house layout would be. yes i know there is a building group but most of the folks there are not cruising over long distances. so here is the list of stuff i am working on. Ive got a relatively large amount of space to play with, excluding a center hold of about 15 by 15. I figure a small forepeak trunk for visitors and a gen set. engine, batteries etc. under benches and behind ladders 1. food storage. 2.galley lay out. 3. salon layout. 4.head 5. state room lay out. what accommodation plans for which boats do you find easy to use, comfortable, logical and easy to maintain. You are using two terms that are totally different. Sampans and Junks are totally different.. Different hull form and different construction entirely. From your description I suspect that you are talking about a junk as a sampan is pretty much a flat bottomed rowing skiff. As a Junk has a nearly square hull cross section there is an amazing amount of room in them compared to a conventional western sail boat. They are also slower :-) The living space on a real junk is almost always in the stern, amidships is hold and forward is not much more then a cubby. A friend designed the interior of his boat using a sliding scale based on how much time he spent in a spot to calculate the size. He reckoned that he spent very little time in the Head so it was just big enough to back in and squat. He only slept in the sleeping compartment so it was only slightly larger then the bunk. His wife really liked to cook so there was a fairly large galley and finally they reckoned that they spent most of their time in the salon so it had the most room. I was aboard his boat any number of times and it did seem pretty spacious for a 38 ft. boat. Food storage. If you plan to live aboard you probably want a fridge. There are two basic systems Electric (12 VDC) driven and engine driven. You can have a eutectic system with either type of power but a conventional refrigerator will be electric. My air cooled condenser 12 VDC fridge draws about 5 amps when the compressor runs and it runs about half eh time - say 60 AH/day. More modern ones use appreciably less electricity. An engine driven one will require running the engine at least once a day and sometimes more often but if you are anchored out you will probably run your engine regularly to keep the batteries up anyway. Or have a bunch of solar panels. Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Actually i am talking about two different boats here and i am very well aware of the differences between the hull forms. the sampan is to use the traditional building methods before i build a fifty foot junk. planks with floors and bulkheads are not like the western skeleton with planks, the whole mind set and assumption base is different. however both sampans and junks are built with the same methods. building with the traditional methods is what i do. yep i like house aft boats. part of the below decks area froward is for machinery. gen set, water maker, the noisy stuff. with a small accommodation for guests or kids.partially trunked. LOL everyone i show the plans to tells me that junks are slow and don't go to the wind as well as western boats. I don't want a race boat i want a cruising boat. more important to me is the comfort and distance capability, might take me longer to arrive but i can have a nice ride. I figure the junk will be my last boat and its gotta travel well for long transits. Junks are slow, mostly due to the large wetted area of most of them and they don't go to windward much better then a square rigger because of the sails. The Europeans, in the late 17 and 1800's rigged some junk hulls with Western sail plans ( called Lorchas I believe) to get better windward ability. On the other hand, the battened sails do make it real easy to reef; just lower the sail a bit. that sliding scale sounds like a good idea got the electrical covered it will be 12 volt solar/wind with a generator backup. I am going to put electric moters in this so i will have two battery banks. one for house and bridge power and one for propulsion with a crossover just in case. Ahh the cargo hold. it will be able to be pumped full of water when the boat is running lite with no cargo or fishing; and dry when i need to transport bulk cargo. it will be able to take 22 full pallets of goods with room for dunnage or be hand stacked to get more cargo in. in my mind a boat must be able to pay her own way and normally this means hauling goods be they fish or dry to other places. since i figure we will be running up north i can make a bit of cash on bulk cargo for friends in the more remote villages ( i have already researched this option and spoken to many folks about this plan and most have agreed that if i offered this service i would have as much if not more work than i can handle). 22 pallets of box milk is a very valuable cargo in the chain since liquids cost dearly to fly. sides cargo holds make great playpens. If you expect to sail to windward you will probably need either lee boards or center boards I suspect. Traditional junk hulls were built for either river and in-shore sailing or ocean sailing. Not both. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) actually the lorchas are the other way round, western hulls with junk sails. Goodness! the dangers of applying "it makes sense" to things you haven't seen. I knew the lorchas were a combination of western and local types and just assumed, I guess, that it was an Asian hull and western rig. I have been using a junk rig for several years now and have had no problems going to the wind. i might not get as high as you but i don't need to. yes i will need a center board forward of the main mast. Well, you can go to windward with square sails, just not as close as with a marconi rig :-) arguing rigs like arguing religion is just to pass the time. no one will ever win the argument. a bit of reading from a ship modeling site. that has done allot of research (these type folks usually do) www.tara.bz "Product description: ??Lorcha??, or ??Lorch??, is a Portuguese word defined in the Oxford dictionary as ??a fast sailing craft built in China with the hull after a European model, but rigged in Chinese fashion, usually carrying guns.?? The Chinese junkmen referred to the Lorcha as ?? ?? ?? ??bai yu ke?? (??white fish shell??) or ?? ?? ?? ??ya pi gu?? (??duck??s buttock??). Common belief is that the Lorcha originated in the Portuguese territory of Macau. Ferdinand Mendez Pinto wrote in 1553 of a ??Lorch?? four years before Macau was occupied by his countrymen. In 1517 the Portuguese first arrived at the port of Tamou (adjacent to Shangchuan Dao) and later settled in Ningpo. These early settlers may have built sailing vessels with finer and faster European hulls yet retaining the safer and easier handling of the unstayed Chinese junk or lugsail. C.A. Montalto de Jesus gave this description of the early Lorchas of Macau; ??built at the Inner Praya they were usually made of camphor or teak wood. Flat bottomed and shallow drafted they ranged in displacement size from 40 -150 tons. The number of guns ranged from 4 to 20 and from 1 to 24 pounds caliber, the larger guns mounted on swivels. The crew, half Portuguese and half Chinese, were armed with muskets, swords, hatchets and spears??. After being established in 1557 Macau soon became the most prosperous European trading centre in the Far East. The Lorcha first gained notoriety fighting Chinese pirate junks in Macau waters ?C later the pirates used them. By the end of the 18th century more than 60,000 pirates on 600 pirate junks and 1,000 auxiliary craft plied the waters around Macau. The first Lorcha recorded by name was the ??Leao?? which on 6 May 1807 under the command of Macanese pilot Antonio Goncalves Carocha along with the sloop ??Princeza Carlota?? and the galley ??Arriaga?? defeated an armada of 50 pirate junks. The Chinese Imperial Government was so impressed that in November 1809 they ordered six Lorchas to be made in Macau to accompany a fleet of 60 Imperial junks. It was not until 21st January 1810 that the pirates finally surrendered." Interesting seeing that the Bugis boats are essentially a European design, excepting for the steering oars in place of the rudder. But you hardly see the bugis sailing ships any more. All diesel now. boats But, sailing in this area was very much a seasonal business, you didn't head south in the S.W. monsoons or the other way in the N.W. winds. By the way, there are a bunch of diesel powered fiberglass junks usually in the yard in Phuket. Fishing boats. I don't know their schedule but they spend one season on the hard and go off somewhere else the other season. Next year they are all back. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
sailing junk
On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:40:41 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: By the end of the 18th century more than 60,000 pirates on 600 pirate junks and 1,000 auxiliary craft plied the waters around Macau. Those figures seem pretty high. Where did they get enough victims. They would have to be stealing from each and every fisherman, just for openers. If you consider water around to be 10 000 sq mi, then there would be a pirate junk every four miles in every direction. Put it that way, it sounds a lot like BS. A dozen pirates in sight at all times? Casady |
sailing junk
On Feb 26, 6:22 am, (Richard Casady)
wrote: On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:40:41 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: By the end of the 18th century more than 60,000 pirates on 600 pirate junks and 1,000 auxiliary craft plied the waters around Macau. Those figures seem pretty high. Where did they get enough victims. They would have to be stealing from each and every fisherman, just for openers. If you consider water around to be 10 000 sq mi, then there would be a pirate junk every four miles in every direction. Put it that way, it sounds a lot like BS. A dozen pirates in sight at all times? Casady sounds like an imperial estimate to me. how else to get the purse strings loose. |
sailing junk
"Joe" wrote in message ... Good luck on the Junk, I would love to have one, but feel they are more suited for near coastal and harbor work. I'd consider Kawlon Harbor and buying vs building new...go with a ming dynasty design. If you build, will it be steel? Do you have a boat now? I saw you mentioned Work boats, what type of work? You could have used some luck, yourself, with your junk (Red Cloud). Wilbur Hubbard |
sailing junk
On Feb 26, 2:02*pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Joe" wrote in message ... *Good luck on the Junk, I would love to have one, but feel they are more suited for near coastal and harbor work. I'd consider Kawlon Harbor and buying vs building new...go with a ming dynasty design. If you build, will it be steel? Do you have a boat now? *I saw you mentioned Work boats, what type of work? You could have used some luck, yourself, with your junk (Red Cloud). Wilbur Hubbard Hello Nellie, We had a 24hr run of over 275 miles. Thats cooking Nellie.... for an 8 kt boat. It was even better at night, but I'll spare you the details, you are not worthy. Have any film of you ever sailing the **** yellow boat you keep in the harbor? Can you even see it from your flop house? Here check it out in case you missed it. Turn the sound up real high and pretend! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC2AG...e=channel_page Joe |
sailing junk
"Joe" wrote in message
... Hello Nellie, We had a 24hr run of over 275 miles. Thats cooking Nellie.... for an 8 kt boat. It was even better at night, but I'll spare you the details, you are not worthy. Got you beat. I did 360 miles in 36 hours in the Gulf during a cold front sailing from Mobile Bay to Tampa Bay seabouy from seabouy. Not bad for a 22-ft LWL yacht! Have any film of you ever sailing the **** yellow boat you keep in the harbor? Can you even see it from your flop house? Are you going to believe that loser, Ron? I think he's going to be singing a different tune now that he's been slapped around a bit. Here check it out in case you missed it. Turn the sound up real high and pretend! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC2AG...e=channel_page Boring . . . . Thunderstorms don't bother me except for the lightning. Winds I can cope with. Microbursts can't harm my yacht. And, that ain't nothing. Look at the muddy water. You must have been in all of 20 feet. Bwahhahahah. This is real sailing. Gulfstream sailing - note the color of the water. Jimmy Buffet in the background. Plenty of cold beer. Thousands of feet deep water. . http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6708490065365399306&ei=SBioSbuZEov KiQKN9bzjAg&q=sailing+in+the+gulf+stream&hl=en But, make sure nobody tells Bruce about this link. He will be green with envy since he hasn't sailed in 30 years. Wilbur Hubbard |
sailing junk
On Feb 25, 2:50*am, Two meter troll wrote:
Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet. going to build it as a study for a *50'X16' or so foot junk. How about a: Texas Gulf Scow Scooner Casco Bay Scow Scooner San Fransisco has a great scow..... ALMA Ya cant get more utilitarian, easier and faster to build, and cheep to maintain (depending on materials) in any material. Hell, 2x6 lam beams and that 4'x8'x7/8" tung and grove sub floor stuff. Dam stout with epoxy glass cover. Think work boats..... they used availible materials and galvanized fittings cause, "hell its just a work boat." Personnaly Id go with a 60' scow scooner with twin lee boards. maybe in aluminum or lam beams and plywood expoxy :) Christ, you could haul Oregon xmas trees and cord fire wood south for the CA market. Park it on the mud somplace up the sacramento maybe Brentwood? Drink beer and let the californians give you fists of money. Fast, stout, beautiful scows.... ummmm my dream boat! bob |
sailing junk
On Feb 27, 5:58*pm, Bob wrote:
On Feb 25, 2:50*am, Two meter troll wrote: Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet. going to build it as a study for a *50'X16' or so foot junk. How about a: Texas Gulf Scow Scooner Casco Bay Scow Scooner San Fransisco has a great scow..... ALMA Ya cant get more utilitarian, easier and faster to build, and cheep to maintain (depending on materials) in any material. Hell, 2x6 lam beams and that 4'x8'x7/8" tung and grove sub floor stuff. Dam stout with epoxy glass cover. Think work boats..... they used availible materials and galvanized fittings cause, "hell its just a work boat." Personnaly Id go with a 60' scow scooner with twin lee boards. maybe in aluminum or lam beams and plywood expoxy :) Christ, you could haul Oregon xmas trees and cord fire wood south for the CA market. Park it on the mud somplace up the sacramento maybe Brentwood? Drink beer and let the californians give you fists of money. Fast, stout, beautiful scows.... ummmm my dream boat! bob thats pretty much what a junk is. with a bit of a full keel to keep her pointed in one direction. fuel is getting costly and i am not one to just sail around so figure i can build a good stout work boat that has some relitivly good cargo space and make a touch of cash. I have never figured out how folks just use a boat for dinking around. I have worked the sea to long to find just sailing all that much fun. I picked a junk because it will sit the mud as well as a scow but still have a bit of performance. I researched for ten years before i settled on a type of boat for this build. the toss up was between a scow and a junk, till just a year ago. I decided on a boat that had a little shape to it and would ease the sea rather than pound it. what i dont like about the scows is the way they move in heavy weather. the corner to corner slamming is uncomfortable after a while. 50 ft puts the boat into $300 a month at the dock and i didnt want to go much higher than that for a slip. |
sailing junk
On Feb 27, 7:58*pm, Bob wrote:
On Feb 25, 2:50*am, Two meter troll wrote: Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet. going to build it as a study for a *50'X16' or so foot junk. How about a: Texas Gulf Scow Scooner Casco Bay Scow Scooner San Fransisco has a great scow..... ALMA Ya cant get more utilitarian, easier and faster to build, and cheep to maintain (depending on materials) in any material. Hell, 2x6 lam beams and that 4'x8'x7/8" tung and grove sub floor stuff. Dam stout with epoxy glass cover. Think work boats..... they used availible materials and galvanized fittings cause, "hell its just a work boat." Personnaly Id go with a 60' scow scooner with twin lee boards. maybe in aluminum or lam beams and plywood expoxy :) Christ, you could haul Oregon xmas trees and cord fire wood south for the CA market. Park it on the mud somplace up the sacramento maybe Brentwood? Drink beer and let the californians give you fists of money. Fast, stout, beautiful scows.... ummmm my dream boat! bob What happened Bob? Are you on the boat yet? Joe |
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