sailing junk
 

On Feb 25, 8:35 pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:45:30 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll

wrote:

just cause its not used in the east to build boats dont mean it aint
good. folks built ships out of myrtle wood Doug fir is a moderate rot
resistance and PO cedar will last practically forever. it would scale
at mahogany, white oak and well PO cedar. like i said i have the
access to the materials right here and can get custom cut OG if i want
a solid keel 50 feet long i can get one. but frankly why? i am not so
much of a traditionalist as to eschew the use of epoxy and a laminated
keel is far better than a solid chunk of wood, i can build it to have
all the curve and counter stress i need with out having to deal with
grain runout, checking, rot pockets, termites, etc. and if i wish i
can bury a few hundred pounds of lead in it.

Some folks are really crazy over wood. I like it myself for some
things. I put a new rafter in my garage a few years back and the only
2"x6"x25' I could get was Douglas Fir, and it had to be shipped in.
I suppose they're using laminated for the longer runs in new
construction now. From what I've seen, it's stronger than solid wood
and without the downsides you mentioned.
Back in the early '70's I made a full wall (12'x8') book case of
redwood. I went to the lumber yard thinking pine, but the redwood
was much cleaner (perfect really) and cost less than high grade pine!
Wasn't as stiff, but design took care of that.
My last house was full of oak woodwork - real pretty stuff.
But when I pulled some off to refinish it I found it be light as a
feather, it had dried so much in 50 years. Brittle of course, and you
had to real careful to avoid splitting it.
Never looked the same to me knowing that. Didn't even seem like real
wood. More like good-looking cardboard.
Since then I don't pay much attention to wood beyond it doing the job
you set for it. Still like boiled linseed oil though.

--Vic

thats pretty much where i stand on it. tung oil, and Stockholm tar
for me heated with a bit of bees wax.

sailing junk
 

On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:20:45 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote:

On Feb 25, 5:26 pm, Bruce in Bangkok decypher-
wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:20:43 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll



wrote:
On Feb 25, 4:56 am, Bruce in Bangkok decypher-
wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:50:29 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll

wrote:
Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet.
going to build it as a study for a 50'X16' or so foot junk.
traditional building methods and all that. but i need some info from
cruisers
about layout as i draft the plans.
Ive spent most of my life on work boats and have no real clue as to
what a comfortable house layout would be. yes i know there is a
building group but most of the folks there are not cruising over long
distances.

so here is the list of stuff i am working on.
Ive got a relatively large amount of space to play with, excluding a
center hold of about 15 by 15.
I figure a small forepeak trunk for visitors and a gen set. engine,
batteries etc. under benches and behind ladders

1. food storage.
2.galley lay out.
3. salon layout.
4.head
5. state room lay out.

what accommodation plans for which boats do you find easy to use,
comfortable, logical and easy to maintain.

You are using two terms that are totally different. Sampans and Junks
are totally different.. Different hull form and different construction
entirely. From your description I suspect that you are talking about a
junk as a sampan is pretty much a flat bottomed rowing skiff.

As a Junk has a nearly square hull cross section there is an amazing
amount of room in them compared to a conventional western sail boat.
They are also slower :-) The living space on a real junk is almost
always in the stern, amidships is hold and forward is not much more
then a cubby.

A friend designed the interior of his boat using a sliding scale based
on how much time he spent in a spot to calculate the size.

He reckoned that he spent very little time in the Head so it was just
big enough to back in and squat. He only slept in the sleeping
compartment so it was only slightly larger then the bunk. His wife
really liked to cook so there was a fairly large galley and finally
they reckoned that they spent most of their time in the salon so it
had the most room.

I was aboard his boat any number of times and it did seem pretty
spacious for a 38 ft. boat.

Food storage. If you plan to live aboard you probably want a fridge.
There are two basic systems Electric (12 VDC) driven and engine
driven. You can have a eutectic system with either type of power but
a conventional refrigerator will be electric. My air cooled condenser
12 VDC fridge draws about 5 amps when the compressor runs and it runs
about half eh time - say 60 AH/day. More modern ones use appreciably
less electricity. An engine driven one will require running the engine
at least once a day and sometimes more often but if you are anchored
out you will probably run your engine regularly to keep the batteries
up anyway. Or have a bunch of solar panels.

Out of curiosity, what are you doing with the cargo hold?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Actually i am talking about two different boats here and i am very
well aware of the differences between the hull forms.
the sampan is to use the traditional building methods before i build a
fifty foot junk. planks with floors and bulkheads are not like the
western skeleton with planks, the whole mind set and assumption base
is different.
however both sampans and junks are built with the same methods.
building with the traditional methods is what i do.

yep i like house aft boats. part of the below decks area froward is
for machinery. gen set, water maker, the noisy stuff.
with a small accommodation for guests or kids.partially trunked.

LOL everyone i show the plans to tells me that junks are slow and
don't go to the wind as well as western boats. I don't want a race
boat i want a cruising boat. more important to me is the comfort and
distance capability, might take me longer to arrive but i can have a
nice ride. I figure the junk will be my last boat and its gotta travel
well for long transits.

Junks are slow, mostly due to the large wetted area of most of them
and they don't go to windward much better then a square rigger because
of the sails. The Europeans, in the late 17 and 1800's rigged some
junk hulls with Western sail plans ( called Lorchas I believe) to get
better windward ability.

On the other hand, the battened sails do make it real easy to reef;
just lower the sail a bit.



that sliding scale sounds like a good idea

got the electrical covered it will be 12 volt solar/wind with a
generator backup. I am going to put electric moters in this so i will
have two battery banks. one for house and bridge power and one for
propulsion with a crossover just in case.

Ahh the cargo hold. it will be able to be pumped full of water when
the boat is running lite with no cargo or fishing; and dry when i need
to transport bulk cargo. it will be able to take 22 full pallets of
goods with room for dunnage or be hand stacked to get more cargo in.
in my mind a boat must be able to pay her own way and normally this
means hauling goods be they fish or dry to other places. since i
figure we will be running up north i can make a bit of cash on bulk
cargo for friends in the more remote villages ( i have already
researched this option and spoken to many folks about this plan and
most have agreed that if i offered this service i would have as much
if not more work than i can handle). 22 pallets of box milk is a very
valuable cargo in the chain since liquids cost dearly to fly. sides
cargo holds make great playpens.

If you expect to sail to windward you will probably need either lee
boards or center boards I suspect. Traditional junk hulls were built
for either river and in-shore sailing or ocean sailing. Not both.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

actually the lorchas are the other way round, western hulls with junk
sails.

Goodness! the dangers of applying "it makes sense" to things you
haven't seen. I knew the lorchas were a combination of western and
local types and just assumed, I guess, that it was an Asian hull and
western rig.

I have been using a junk rig for several years now and have had no
problems going to the wind. i might not get as high as you but i don't
need to. yes i will need a center board forward of the main mast.

Well, you can go to windward with square sails, just not as close as
with a marconi rig :-)

arguing rigs like arguing religion is just to pass the time. no one
will ever win the argument.



a bit of reading from a ship modeling site. that has done allot of
research (these type folks usually do) www.tara.bz

"Product description: ??Lorcha??, or ??Lorch??, is a Portuguese word
defined in the Oxford dictionary as ??a fast sailing craft built in
China with the hull after a European model, but rigged in Chinese
fashion, usually carrying guns.?? The Chinese junkmen referred to the
Lorcha as ?? ?? ?? ??bai yu ke?? (??white fish shell??) or ?? ?? ?? ??ya pi
gu?? (??duck??s buttock??).

Common belief is that the Lorcha originated in the Portuguese
territory of Macau. Ferdinand Mendez Pinto wrote in 1553 of a ??Lorch??
four years before Macau was occupied by his countrymen.

In 1517 the Portuguese first arrived at the port of Tamou (adjacent to
Shangchuan Dao) and later settled in Ningpo. These early settlers may
have built sailing vessels with finer and faster European hulls yet
retaining the safer and easier handling of the unstayed Chinese junk
or lugsail.

C.A. Montalto de Jesus gave this description of the early Lorchas of
Macau; ??built at the Inner Praya they were usually made of camphor or
teak wood. Flat bottomed and shallow drafted they ranged in
displacement size from 40 -150 tons. The number of guns ranged from 4
to 20 and from 1 to 24 pounds caliber, the larger guns mounted on
swivels. The crew, half Portuguese and half Chinese, were armed with
muskets, swords, hatchets and spears??.

After being established in 1557 Macau soon became the most prosperous
European trading centre in the Far East. The Lorcha first gained
notoriety fighting Chinese pirate junks in Macau waters ?C later the
pirates used them. By the end of the 18th century more than 60,000
pirates on 600 pirate junks and 1,000 auxiliary craft plied the waters
around Macau.

The first Lorcha recorded by name was the ??Leao?? which on 6 May 1807
under the command of Macanese pilot Antonio Goncalves Carocha along
with the sloop ??Princeza Carlota?? and the galley ??Arriaga?? defeated an
armada of 50 pirate junks. The Chinese Imperial Government was so
impressed that in November 1809 they ordered six Lorchas to be made in
Macau to accompany a fleet of 60 Imperial junks. It was not until 21st
January 1810 that the pirates finally surrendered."


Interesting seeing that the Bugis boats are essentially a European
design, excepting for the steering oars in place of the rudder.
But you hardly see the bugis sailing ships any more. All diesel now.
boats

But, sailing in this area was very much a seasonal business, you
didn't head south in the S.W. monsoons or the other way in the N.W.
winds.

By the way, there are a bunch of diesel powered fiberglass junks
usually in the yard in Phuket. Fishing boats. I don't know their
schedule but they spend one season on the hard and go off somewhere
else the other season. Next year they are all back.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

sailing junk
 

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:40:41 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

By the end of the 18th century more than 60,000
pirates on 600 pirate junks and 1,000 auxiliary craft plied the waters
around Macau.

Those figures seem pretty high. Where did they get enough victims.
They would have to be stealing from each and every fisherman, just for
openers. If you consider water around to be 10 000 sq mi, then there
would be a pirate junk every four miles in every direction. Put it
that way, it sounds a lot like BS. A dozen pirates in sight at all
times?

Casady

sailing junk
 

On Feb 26, 6:22 am, (Richard Casady)
wrote:
On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:40:41 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok

wrote:
By the end of the 18th century more than 60,000
pirates on 600 pirate junks and 1,000 auxiliary craft plied the waters
around Macau.

Those figures seem pretty high. Where did they get enough victims.
They would have to be stealing from each and every fisherman, just for
openers. If you consider water around to be 10 000 sq mi, then there
would be a pirate junk every four miles in every direction. Put it
that way, it sounds a lot like BS. A dozen pirates in sight at all
times?

Casady

sounds like an imperial estimate to me. how else to get the purse
strings loose.

sailing junk
 

"Joe" wrote in message
...

Good luck on the Junk, I would love to have one, but feel they are
more suited for near coastal and harbor work.
I'd consider Kawlon Harbor and buying vs building new...go with a ming
dynasty design.

If you build, will it be steel?
Do you have a boat now?

I saw you mentioned Work boats, what type of work?


You could have used some luck, yourself, with your junk (Red Cloud).

Wilbur Hubbard

sailing junk
 

On Feb 26, 2:02*pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

...

*Good luck on the Junk, I would love to have one, but feel they are
more suited for near coastal and harbor work.
I'd consider Kawlon Harbor and buying vs building new...go with a ming
dynasty design.

If you build, will it be steel?
Do you have a boat now?

*I saw you mentioned Work boats, what type of work?

You could have used some luck, yourself, with your junk (Red Cloud).

Wilbur Hubbard

Hello Nellie,

We had a 24hr run of over 275 miles. Thats cooking Nellie.... for an 8
kt boat.
It was even better at night, but I'll spare you the details, you are
not worthy.

Have any film of you ever sailing the **** yellow boat you keep in the
harbor?
Can you even see it from your flop house?

Here check it out in case you missed it.
Turn the sound up real high and pretend!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC2AG...e=channel_page

Joe

sailing junk
 

"Joe" wrote in message
...


Hello Nellie,

We had a 24hr run of over 275 miles. Thats cooking Nellie.... for an 8
kt boat.
It was even better at night, but I'll spare you the details, you are
not worthy.

Got you beat. I did 360 miles in 36 hours in the Gulf during a cold front
sailing from Mobile Bay to Tampa Bay seabouy from seabouy. Not bad for a
22-ft LWL yacht!

Have any film of you ever sailing the **** yellow boat you keep in the
harbor?
Can you even see it from your flop house?

Are you going to believe that loser, Ron? I think he's going to be singing a
different tune now that he's been slapped around a bit.

Here check it out in case you missed it.
Turn the sound up real high and pretend!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC2AG...e=channel_page


Boring . . . . Thunderstorms don't bother me except for the lightning.
Winds I can cope with. Microbursts can't harm my yacht. And, that ain't
nothing. Look at the muddy water. You must have been in all of 20 feet.
Bwahhahahah.

This is real sailing. Gulfstream sailing - note the color of the water.
Jimmy Buffet in the background. Plenty of cold beer. Thousands of feet deep
water. .

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6708490065365399306&ei=SBioSbuZEov KiQKN9bzjAg&q=sailing+in+the+gulf+stream&hl=en

But, make sure nobody tells Bruce about this link. He will be green with
envy since he hasn't sailed in 30 years.


Wilbur Hubbard

sailing junk
 

On Feb 25, 2:50*am, Two meter troll wrote:
Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet.
going to build it as a study for a *50'X16' or so foot junk.



How about a:
Texas Gulf Scow Scooner
Casco Bay Scow Scooner
San Fransisco has a great scow..... ALMA


Ya cant get more utilitarian, easier and faster to build, and cheep to
maintain (depending on materials) in any material. Hell, 2x6 lam beams
and that 4'x8'x7/8" tung and grove sub floor stuff. Dam stout with
epoxy glass cover. Think work boats..... they used availible materials
and galvanized fittings cause, "hell its just a work boat."

Personnaly Id go with a 60' scow scooner with twin lee boards. maybe
in aluminum or lam beams and plywood expoxy :)
Christ, you could haul Oregon xmas trees and cord fire wood south for
the CA market. Park it on the mud somplace up the sacramento maybe
Brentwood? Drink beer and let the californians give you fists of
money.

Fast, stout, beautiful scows.... ummmm my dream boat!

bob

sailing junk
 

On Feb 27, 5:58*pm, Bob wrote:
On Feb 25, 2:50*am, Two meter troll wrote:

Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet.
going to build it as a study for a *50'X16' or so foot junk.

How about a:
Texas Gulf Scow Scooner
Casco Bay Scow Scooner
San Fransisco has a great scow..... ALMA

Ya cant get more utilitarian, easier and faster to build, and cheep to
maintain (depending on materials) in any material. Hell, 2x6 lam beams
and that 4'x8'x7/8" tung and grove sub floor stuff. Dam stout with
epoxy glass cover. Think work boats..... they used availible materials
and galvanized fittings cause, "hell its just a work boat."

Personnaly Id go with a 60' scow scooner with twin lee boards. maybe
in aluminum or lam beams and plywood expoxy :)
Christ, you could haul Oregon xmas trees and cord fire wood south for
the CA market. Park it on the mud somplace up the sacramento maybe
Brentwood? Drink beer and let the californians give you fists of
money.

Fast, stout, beautiful scows.... ummmm my dream boat!

bob

thats pretty much what a junk is. with a bit of a full keel to keep
her pointed in one direction.
fuel is getting costly and i am not one to just sail around so figure
i can build a good stout work boat that has some relitivly good cargo
space and make a touch of cash. I have never figured out how folks
just use a boat for dinking around. I have worked the sea to long to
find just sailing all that much fun. I picked a junk because it will
sit the mud as well as a scow but still have a bit of performance. I
researched for ten years before i settled on a type of boat for this
build. the toss up was between a scow and a junk, till just a year
ago. I decided on a boat that had a little shape to it and would ease
the sea rather than pound it. what i dont like about the scows is the
way they move in heavy weather. the corner to corner slamming is
uncomfortable after a while.
50 ft puts the boat into $300 a month at the dock and i didnt want to
go much higher than that for a slip.

sailing junk
 

On Feb 27, 7:58*pm, Bob wrote:
On Feb 25, 2:50*am, Two meter troll wrote:

Ive got the wood milling for a sampan that i scaled up to thirty feet.
going to build it as a study for a *50'X16' or so foot junk.

How about a:
Texas Gulf Scow Scooner
Casco Bay Scow Scooner
San Fransisco has a great scow..... ALMA

Ya cant get more utilitarian, easier and faster to build, and cheep to
maintain (depending on materials) in any material. Hell, 2x6 lam beams
and that 4'x8'x7/8" tung and grove sub floor stuff. Dam stout with
epoxy glass cover. Think work boats..... they used availible materials
and galvanized fittings cause, "hell its just a work boat."

Personnaly Id go with a 60' scow scooner with twin lee boards. maybe
in aluminum or lam beams and plywood expoxy :)
Christ, you could haul Oregon xmas trees and cord fire wood south for
the CA market. Park it on the mud somplace up the sacramento maybe
Brentwood? Drink beer and let the californians give you fists of
money.

Fast, stout, beautiful scows.... ummmm my dream boat!

bob

What happened Bob?
Are you on the boat yet?

Joe