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Please,someone! Go sailing and talk about it!
Weather still not good enough here (high winds and deep draft plus
shallow water equals bad boo) It's beginning to loo like ASAin here... |
Please,someone! Go sailing and talk about it!
"katy" wrote in message
om... Weather still not good enough here (high winds and deep draft plus shallow water equals bad boo) It's beginning to loo like ASAin here... I'm going on Tuesday. Short trip.. marina to the yard. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Please,someone! Go sailing and talk about it!
On Feb 23, 2:26*am, katy wrote:
Weather still not good enough here (high winds and deep draft plus shallow water equals bad boo) It's beginning to loo like ASAin here... The wind has been howling here all day, I so wanted to have a good eekend so I could go! :( |
Please,someone! Go sailing and talk about it!
|
Speaking of emergency steering
My rudder quadrant is pretty massive. In addition to an emergency tiller,
the wind vane control lines attach to the quadrant so I can steer with the vane gear or by pulling on the lines. My concern is the stock breaking off of the steel plate inside the rudder at the weld and starting to just spin inside the rudder. Like most, mine fills with water and drains all winter. I'm thinking of adapting an idea from the old sailing ships an attaching a stout ring through bolted with straps to the rear upper corner of the rudder. This is just above the waterline on my boat. I can either run a line to this while standing on the boarding ladder or keep a light line rigged as shown he http://www.rogerlongboats.com/images/Esteerline.jpg Lines taken either side to blocks on the toe rail holes and then to the winches should give me some control at the cost of some topside chafing. I also have a very bunk bin board over my holding tank that is nearly as large as my rudder. I plan to obtain a suitable piece of pipe and pre-drill it for a tiller and to attach the pre-drilled bunk board to. This can be lashed to the wind vane tower. The ring on the rudder idea is simple though and applicable to many boats. If I can't find a suitable storage place for the stock long enough for plan A, I may just go with it alone. If Cecil isn't too busy packing, he should be along soon to point out that only boats with outboard rudders that are painted yellow can be considered seaworthy. However, I bought this boat and got stuck with it before discovering this group and having the benifit of his wisdom and experience so I'll just have to make do. -- Roger Long |
Speaking of emergency steering
Roger Long wrote:
.... If Cecil isn't too busy packing, he should be along soon to point out that only boats with outboard rudders that are painted yellow can be considered seaworthy. In my dinghy/daysailing days I thought a balanced spade rudder was the be all/end all of rudders. Now I appreciate my skeg hung rudders as a number of my sister ships with spade rudders have bent their posts on "uncharted obstructions." Catamarans of course have an issue since the keels are usually only slightly deeper than the rudders, so strikes are common. Fortunately, there are two large rudders so if one is jammed, they can be decoupled and steered independently. Our forum has a number of threads on the straightening of posts, and several boats actually carry spare rudders! Since mine was fitted with diesels (most of the sister ships had outboards) the rudders are skeg mounted so the skeg can support the extra weight when beached. Although it makes for a bit more effort and less maneuverability, I can go through skinny water with more confidence. |
Speaking of emergency steering
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:13:09 -0500, "Roger Long"
wrote: I'm thinking of adapting an idea from the old sailing ships an attaching a stout ring through bolted with straps to the rear upper corner of the rudder. This is just above the waterline on my boat. I can either run a line to this while standing on the boarding ladder or keep a light line rigged as shown he http://www.rogerlongboats.com/images/Esteerline.jpg Losing the rudder is mostly a concern on long offshore passages. It does happen. A friend of mine with a 50 something Irwin ketch once had to be towed 200 miles into Norfolk, VA by the coast guard after losing the rudder in a way similar to what you describe. I don't see any reason why your scheme with control lines wouldn't work, and top side chafing is the least of your concerns at that point. All boats in the Newport-Bermuda race have to demonstrate a workable emergency rudder arrangement. Most opt for some combination of spinnaker pole with a door lashed to it. The pole gets loosely lashed to a stanchion at the rear of the boat and some lucky individual gets to manhandle the free end like a giant tiller. |
Speaking of emergency steering
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:04:59 -0500, jeff wrote:
Catamarans of course have an issue since the keels are usually only slightly deeper than the rudders, so strikes are common. That can happen of course, but most monohull steering failures are caused by structural issues internal to the rudder or in the cables, blocks or quadrant. |
Speaking of emergency steering
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:13:09 -0500, "Roger Long"
wrote: If Cecil isn't too busy packing, he should be along soon to point out that only boats with outboard rudders that are painted yellow can be considered seaworthy Do you think if I painted the [outboard] rudders on my sister's scow yellow it would become seaworthy? Casady |
Speaking of emergency steering
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:04:59 -0500, jeff wrote: Catamarans of course have an issue since the keels are usually only slightly deeper than the rudders, so strikes are common. That can happen of course, but most monohull steering failures are caused by structural issues internal to the rudder or in the cables, blocks or quadrant. I believe that to be the case, also. However, just prior to my buying my 1963 Rawson 30, as it was being taken down the SoCal coast to Newport Harbor, the rudder post broke inside the rudder requiring a complete rudder/post rebuild. The boat had been in salt water for nearly 40 years at that time. The craftsman at Orange Coast College of Sailing and Seamanship did a magnificent job creating a new rudder for her. |
Speaking of emergency steering
"Richard Casady" wrote
Do you think if I painted the [outboard] rudders on my sister's scow yellow it would become seaworthy? "Seaworthy" always must be evaluated in terms of intended route and service. Based on prior service record of yellow outboard rudders in this newsgroup, your sister's boat after such modification should be prefectly adequate for sitting on a mooring for years without going anywhere while she pesters and blusters about being the worlds greatest sailor. -- Roger Long |
Speaking of emergency steering
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:04:59 -0500, jeff wrote: Catamarans of course have an issue since the keels are usually only slightly deeper than the rudders, so strikes are common. That can happen of course, but most monohull steering failures are caused by structural issues internal to the rudder or in the cables, blocks or quadrant. Failures in the cables , blocks or quadrant are what your emergency tiller is for and should not present an insuperable problem. Internal structural failures in the rudder are another story and I have often wondered why the simple expedient of putting a hole through the top after part of the rudder is not normal practise as this would enable you to easily rig a couple of control lines as has been mentioned here before if that kind of failure occurred. I hate the idea of a rudder that fills with water because there is no way of checking what corrosion etc. is taking place inside. Some emergency tillers leave a lot to be desired. When I got my boat I found that the rudder head was visible in the cockpit and had a hole into which about 18" of pipe could be fitted. That was the emergency tiller and it could not be any longer since it would foul the steering wheel pedestal. I have a boat that is quick on the helm and has a balanced spade rudder so in emergency this would only allow me to crouch down in the cockpit steering with this short tiller while someone else told me where we were going. Not helpful while single handing. I have modified this tiller by attaching another arm at right angles to it so now I can sit up in the cockpit and steer with it while looking where I am going. The tiller the boat came with was pretty useless for all practical purposes, yet it appeared to meet the requirements that the boat should have an emergency tiller and the surveyor noted it as such without commenting on its uselessness. |
Please,someone! Go sailing and talk about it!
wrote in message
... On Feb 23, 2:26 am, katy wrote: Weather still not good enough here (high winds and deep draft plus shallow water equals bad boo) It's beginning to loo like ASAin here... The wind has been howling here all day, I so wanted to have a good eekend so I could go! :( Where is here? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Speaking of emergency steering
Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:04:59 -0500, jeff wrote: Catamarans of course have an issue since the keels are usually only slightly deeper than the rudders, so strikes are common. That can happen of course, but most monohull steering failures are caused by structural issues internal to the rudder or in the cables, blocks or quadrant. Yes - but cable issues are a different class of failure. Every boat should have some form of emergency tiller to make do when there is some type of linkage issue. No one should be stranded mid-ocean because of a quadrant or cable problem. So this leaves several failure modes - rudder falling off, post separating inside rudder, and post bending and jamming rudder. I wonder what the frequency of failure is for the various types of rudders. |
Speaking of emergency steering
"jeff" wrote in message ... snipped some So this leaves several failure modes - rudder falling off, post separating inside rudder, and post bending and jamming rudder. I wonder what the frequency of failure is for the various types of rudders. Why not ask Joe. He's the expert on rudder failure. Bwahahhahahahah. Who would have thought a poorly designed rudder would sink a steel boat? Wilbur Hubbard |
Speaking of emergency steering
On Feb 23, 12:55*pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "jeff" wrote in message ... snipped some So this leaves several failure modes - rudder falling off, post separating inside rudder, and post bending and jamming rudder. *I wonder what the frequency of failure is for the various types of rudders. Why not ask Joe. He's the expert on rudder failure. Bwahahhahahahah. Who would have thought a poorly designed rudder would sink a steel boat? Wilbur Hubbard Cecil,greg,wilbur, neal, ect..ect.. I've had a dozen or so failures I can recall. First in diego garcia on this boat before it was converted: http://www.ship564.org/boats.html They ID the boat due to a repair made after loosing steering and hitting a cement anchor bouy. No one was hurt. Cable broke One on a tug pushing 250 thousand gallons of diesel in a fuel flat. Was in a meeting situation in the ICW. Luckly it was caused by blowing a stb hydro hose, and the barge rammed the mud bank, had it been the port side it would have put the barge if front of a loaded gravel barge. We were in a 1 whistle agreement passing when it blew. Fixed that by replacing the hose. Crew & Supply boats....a dozen times, Pumps mostly, clogged filters..nothing serious, most boats had redundant units. And RedCloud. It had a worm gear unit like this : http://www.2carpros.com/how_does_it_...g_gear_box.jpg Just much more beefy. On the output shaft was a fulcrum to a fulcrum on the rudder shaft top. The tie rod between them was 1" steel rod and failed were the fulcrum attached to the rod on the output shaft of the worm gear. Without stops the rod after sheering went through the hull. I guess I could be called an expert now, I paid the tuition cost. How about you? Have many times have you lost steering, bent props, had fires, had injured crew, rescued anyone, been in a wreck, made a penny as a Captain? (imaginary times and fairy tales not included) Joe |
Speaking of emergency steering
"Joe" wrote in message ... Cecil,greg,wilbur, neal, ect..ect.. I've had a dozen or so failures I can recall. First in diego garcia on this boat before it was converted: http://www.ship564.org/boats.html Hey, it's the "Skipper's" boat from Gilligan's island! They ID the boat due to a repair made after loosing steering and hitting a cement anchor bouy. No one was hurt. Cable broke Duh! How come you so-called professionals don't do a visual inspection of systems from time to time. Sounds like you just accept the fact that things will fail from time to time and never even bother looking for wear and tear. Cables just don't break all of a sudden. They usually show signs of wear like fraying, splitting, etc. One on a tug pushing 250 thousand gallons of diesel in a fuel flat. Was in a meeting situation in the ICW. Luckly it was caused by blowing a stb hydro hose, and the barge rammed the mud bank, had it been the port side it would have put the barge if front of a loaded gravel barge. We were in a 1 whistle agreement passing when it blew. Fixed that by replacing the hose. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Where's the visual inspection and/or timely replacement schedule? Ignored because of ignorance and stupidity? Thought so. Crew & Supply boats....a dozen times, Pumps mostly, clogged filters..nothing serious, most boats had redundant units. Duh! And again, Duh! Filters are supposed to be changed out on a schedule prior to them clogging. And RedCloud. It had a worm gear unit like this : http://www.2carpros.com/how_does_it_...g_gear_box.jpg Just much more beefy. On the output shaft was a fulcrum to a fulcrum on the rudder shaft top. The tie rod between them was 1" steel rod and failed were the fulcrum attached to the rod on the output shaft of the worm gear. Without stops the rod after sheering went through the hull. Duh! Again a visual inspection probably would have revealed a cracked weld prior to catastrophic failure. Where were your eyes? Tie rods have tie rod ends, right? These should be inspected regularly for wear and tear and lubrication, right? A one-inch diameter hole or even several one inch diameter holes certainly could have had rags stuffed into them to stem the ingress of water to such an extent that bilge pumps should have been able to handle the chore. That steel rod could have been removed at the tie rod ends, welded and re-fitted had the boat a welder which it should have had. It's just dumb to sail a large steel boat without some sort of welder. Duh. Joe, I still think you need an attitude adjustment. You seem clueless when it comes to preventative maintenance and system inspection and repair. Is this the way so-called professionals operate? A feeling that "**** happens" with no methods in place to keep **** from happening or at least slowing it down? I guess I could be called an expert now, I paid the tuition cost. If I were your professor I would make you take the classes again. It's obvious you haven't learned preventive maintenance and having a plan if and when a failure of some sort occurs in spite of preventive maintenance. How about you? Have many times have you lost steering, bent props, had fires, had injured crew, rescued anyone, been in a wreck, made a penny as a Captain? (imaginary times and fairy tales not included) I've sailed thousands of miles offshore, nearshore, and inland. The worst failure I've ever had was a broken-in-two boom. Other than magnafluxing the boom from time to time I don't see any preventative maintenance that would have eliminated that breakage. Repaired the boom myself and it remains stronger than new to this very day. Never had an injured crew. (I don't ship weakling, inexperienced amateurs or females!) Never bent a prop. Real sailboats have little need of props anyway. Never lost steering. Have reliable, balanced spade rudder that will turn 360 degrees with reliable cast aluminum tiller. Had a couple of little galley fires easily extinguished, and one brandy fire in the bilge after a bottle burst when the boat was struck by lightning. Never needed rescue. Never shall because I'll drown like a man before suffering such an indignity. This attitude will go a long ways towards keeping me from ever needing rescue. Never had a wreck. I know and follow the rules of the road. Made money as a captain but as a side-job and part time and on my terms. So-called professional captains around here who work the headboats, dive boats etc. make 100 dollars a day with NO benefits. Only an idiot works for peanuts like that. Wilbur Hubbard |
Please,someone! Go sailing and talk about it!
In article , Roger Long wrote:
Here's someting on topic: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe...cue/index.html Shame it's not a better story. OK, so it's not the worst, but it could be better. Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea. |
Speaking of emergency steering
On Feb 23, 4:13 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
My rudder quadrant is pretty massive. In addition to an emergency tiller, the wind vane control lines attach to the quadrant so I can steer with the vane gear or by pulling on the lines. My concern is the stock breaking off of the steel plate inside the rudder at the weld and starting to just spin inside the rudder. Like most, mine fills with water and drains all winter. I'm thinking of adapting an idea from the old sailing ships an attaching a stout ring through bolted with straps to the rear upper corner of the rudder. This is just above the waterline on my boat. I can either run a line to this while standing on the boarding ladder or keep a light line rigged as shown he http://www.rogerlongboats.com/images/Esteerline.jpg Lines taken either side to blocks on the toe rail holes and then to the winches should give me some control at the cost of some topside chafing. I also have a very bunk bin board over my holding tank that is nearly as large as my rudder. I plan to obtain a suitable piece of pipe and pre-drill it for a tiller and to attach the pre-drilled bunk board to. This can be lashed to the wind vane tower. The ring on the rudder idea is simple though and applicable to many boats. If I can't find a suitable storage place for the stock long enough for plan A, I may just go with it alone. If Cecil isn't too busy packing, he should be along soon to point out that only boats with outboard rudders that are painted yellow can be considered seaworthy. However, I bought this boat and got stuck with it before discovering this group and having the benifit of his wisdom and experience so I'll just have to make do. -- Roger Long I like my chinese rudders. you lift them out of the way and its no problem building a new one. do folks actually have the rudder it self fail or is it normally some system connected to it? Ive had the cables or chains or hydro fail. but never had a rudder actually fail. most times I had a mechanical back up system or a tiller so it might have been a little inconvenient but not earth shaking. |
Speaking of emergency steering
On Feb 23, 3:32*pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Joe" wrote in message ... Cecil,greg,wilbur, neal, ect..ect.. I've had a dozen or so failures I can recall. First in diego garcia on this boat before it was converted: http://www.ship564.org/boats.html Hey, it's the "Skipper's" boat from Gilligan's island! They ID the boat due to a repair made after loosing steering and hitting a cement anchor bouy. No one was hurt. Cable broke Duh! How come you so-called professionals don't do a visual inspection of systems from time to time. Sounds like you just accept the fact that things will fail from time to time and never even bother looking for wear and tear. Cables just don't break all of a sudden. They usually show signs of wear like fraying, splitting, etc. We did maintance and inspections all the time. Navy even had PMS systems for the utility boats. One on a tug pushing 250 thousand gallons of diesel in a fuel flat. Was in a meeting situation in the ICW. Luckly it was caused by blowing a stb hydro hose, and the barge rammed the mud bank, had it been the port side it would have put the barge if front of a loaded gravel barge. We were in a 1 whistle agreement passing when it blew. Fixed that by replacing the hose. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Where's the visual inspection and/or timely replacement schedule? Ignored because of ignorance and stupidity? Thought so. Crew & Supply boats....a dozen times, Pumps mostly, clogged filters..nothing serious, most boats had redundant units. Duh! And again, Duh! Filters are supposed to be changed out on a schedule prior to them clogging. And RedCloud. It had a worm gear unit like this : http://www.2carpros.com/how_does_it_...g_gear_box.jpg Just much more beefy. On the output shaft was a fulcrum to a fulcrum on the rudder shaft top. The tie rod between them was 1" steel rod and failed were the fulcrum attached to the rod on the output shaft of the worm gear. Without stops the rod after sheering went through the hull. Duh! Again a visual inspection probably would have revealed a cracked weld prior to catastrophic failure. You would think. Infact I did so many visual inspection of the steering gear before it failed it ****ed off a crew member tying to sleep in the aft cabin. The steering did not feel right Where were your eyes? Tie rods have tie rod ends, right? Not this one. The rod had a bolt thru it into the fulcrum end. The bolt hole was drilled through the rod then scabbed over top and bottom not allowing for inspection of the weakening rod where the hole was drilled These should be inspected regularly for wear and tear and lubrication, right? *A one-inch diameter hole or even several one inch diameter holes certainly could have had rags stuffed into them to stem the ingress of water to such an extent that bilge pumps should have been able to handle the chore. Except it was next to a T bar stringer, dis-alowing the use of bungs. I slowed it a bit with my bros silk shirts. That steel rod could have been removed at the tie rod ends, welded and re-fitted had the boat a welder which it should have had. Could have used the emergency tiller bar too that fit in the rudder post. It's just dumb to sail a large steel boat without some sort of welder. Duh. Joe, I still think you need an attitude adjustment. You seem clueless when it comes to preventative maintenance and system inspection and repair. Is this the way so-called professionals operate? A feeling that "**** happens" with no methods in place to keep **** from happening or at least slowing it down? I guess I could be called an expert now, I paid the tuition cost. If I were your professor I would make you take the classes again. It's obvious you haven't learned preventive maintenance and having a plan if and when a failure of some sort occurs in spite of preventive maintenance. Preventve maintaince works 99% of the time. Im talking about the other 1% Let me explain so that you might understand. Lets take your rusty toy ota. If yo drive it a half million miles no matter how well you maintain it, and inspect it,parts will fail. Even new parts can fail. Sometimes when a filter cloggs it might clog again sooner than any planned maintance. If you actually move a boat, not just pretending you would understand this. As the old saying goes, Neal boat is safe & never breaks in Harbor, but thats not what boats were buildt for...or something like that. How about you? Have many times have you lost steering, bent props, had fires, had injured crew, rescued anyone, been in a wreck, made a penny as a Captain? (imaginary times and fairy tales not included) I've sailed thousands of miles offshore, *nearshore, and inland. The worst failure I've ever had was a broken-in-two boom. Other than magnafluxing the boom from time to time I don't see any preventative maintenance that would have eliminated that breakage. Repaired the boom myself and it remains stronger than new to this very day. Never had an injured crew. (I don't ship weakling, inexperienced amateurs or females!) You do not ship anything, it clearly shows in your in-experience. Never bent a prop. Real sailboats have little need of props anyway. Never lost steering. Have reliable, balanced spade rudder that will turn 360 degrees with reliable cast aluminum tiller. Well thats good Wilbur. If you only have commanded one simple little day sailor the chances of having any problems is reduced by many folds. Limited exposure leads to limited risks. It is crystal clear you are the master at limiting you maritine exposure. Had a couple of little galley fires easily extinguished, and one brandy fire in the bilge after a bottle burst when the boat was struck by lightning. Galley fires? WTF you a drunk cook or something? I;m talking about real fires, like fuel spraying on a hot turbo, clutches burning, breaker box ect... Not some sissyfied suzy homemakers fires. Never needed rescue. Never shall because I'll drown like a man before suffering such an indignity. This attitude will go a long ways towards keeping me from ever needing rescue. Well your attitude seems to have kept you moored silly for the last 15 plus years. Keep it up and you will safe. Never had a wreck. I know and follow the rules of the road. Made money as a captain but as a side-job and part time and on my terms. So-called professional captains around here who work the headboats, dive boats etc. make 100 dollars a day with NO benefits. Only an idiot works for peanuts like that. Only an idiot would be happy with a 25 gt masters that would restrict you to such a limited choice of vessels to command. Wilbur Hubbard Joe |
Speaking of emergency steering
"Two meter troll" wrote in message
... On Feb 23, 4:13 am, "Roger Long" wrote: My rudder quadrant is pretty massive. In addition to an emergency tiller, the wind vane control lines attach to the quadrant so I can steer with the vane gear or by pulling on the lines. My concern is the stock breaking off of the steel plate inside the rudder at the weld and starting to just spin inside the rudder. Like most, mine fills with water and drains all winter. I'm thinking of adapting an idea from the old sailing ships an attaching a stout ring through bolted with straps to the rear upper corner of the rudder. This is just above the waterline on my boat. I can either run a line to this while standing on the boarding ladder or keep a light line rigged as shown he http://www.rogerlongboats.com/images/Esteerline.jpg Lines taken either side to blocks on the toe rail holes and then to the winches should give me some control at the cost of some topside chafing. I also have a very bunk bin board over my holding tank that is nearly as large as my rudder. I plan to obtain a suitable piece of pipe and pre-drill it for a tiller and to attach the pre-drilled bunk board to. This can be lashed to the wind vane tower. The ring on the rudder idea is simple though and applicable to many boats. If I can't find a suitable storage place for the stock long enough for plan A, I may just go with it alone. If Cecil isn't too busy packing, he should be along soon to point out that only boats with outboard rudders that are painted yellow can be considered seaworthy. However, I bought this boat and got stuck with it before discovering this group and having the benifit of his wisdom and experience so I'll just have to make do. -- Roger Long I like my chinese rudders. you lift them out of the way and its no problem building a new one. do folks actually have the rudder it self fail or is it normally some system connected to it? Ive had the cables or chains or hydro fail. but never had a rudder actually fail. most times I had a mechanical back up system or a tiller so it might have been a little inconvenient but not earth shaking. I saw a rudder that was filled with water, watched it drain when she was hauled, but it didn't fail. I suppose getting hit would do it or over time with corrosion. I regularly inspect the cables controlled by the quadrant on my boat, but never find anything. I'm going to pull the binnacle at some point and lubricate. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Please,someone! Go sailing and talk about it!
On Feb 23, 2:26*am, katy wrote:
Weather still not good enough here (high winds and deep draft plus shallow water equals bad boo) It's beginning to loo like ASAin here... Well, this isn't going to sound very manly after all the talk about fires, explosions, and rudder failure; but I went sailing on Saturday. It was chilly but the wind was OK... a tad on the light side, but OK considering the temps... raced on a friend's Islander 30 and got a 2nd & 3rd in class. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Speaking of emergency steering
Two meter troll wrote:
.... do folks actually have the rudder it self fail or is it normally some system connected to it? Ive had the cables or chains or hydro fail. but never had a rudder actually fail. most times I had a mechanical back up system or a tiller so it might have been a little inconvenient but not earth shaking. My first keel boat was a Paceship Eastwind, similar to a Cape Dory 25. The rudder was cored, and the coring had rotted a bit, allowing the paddles that were welded to the post to wiggle. We opened it up and filled it with epoxy. It wasn't close to failure, but I could imagine the paddles breaking through the side of the rudder. I could also imagine the weld failing if there was a hidden weakness. My hunch has always been that the most common failure was a bent or broken post, because they are often undersized on cheaply built boats. |
Please,someone! Go sailing and talk about it!
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:25:10 -0000, Justin C
wrote: In article , Roger Long wrote: Here's someting on topic: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe...cue/index.html Shame it's not a better story. OK, so it's not the worst, but it could be better. At least they were . . . http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/7905946.stm |
Please,someone! Go sailing and talk about it!
wrote in message ... Weather still not good enough here (high winds and deep draft plus shallow water equals bad boo) It's beginning to loo like ASAin here... Well, this isn't going to sound very manly after all the talk about fires, explosions, and rudder failure; but I went sailing on Saturday. It was chilly but the wind was OK... a tad on the light side, but OK considering the temps... raced on a friend's Islander 30 and got a 2nd & 3rd in class. Fresh Breezes- Doug King Good on ya, Doug! Glad someone is actually able to get out and sail this time of year. |
Speaking of emergency steering
"Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... I saw a rudder that was filled with water, watched it drain when she was hauled, but it didn't fail. I suppose getting hit would do it or over time with corrosion. I regularly inspect the cables controlled by the quadrant on my boat, but never find anything. I'm going to pull the binnacle at some point and lubricate. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com A water-filled rudder? That's a new one on me. I saw an ad once for a water-filled anchor that was just the cat's pajamas. Empty it out, it's really light. Fill it up, it gets really heavy. Fill it with fresh water and you have an extra supply of drinking water to boot. |
Speaking of emergency steering
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
et... "Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... I saw a rudder that was filled with water, watched it drain when she was hauled, but it didn't fail. I suppose getting hit would do it or over time with corrosion. I regularly inspect the cables controlled by the quadrant on my boat, but never find anything. I'm going to pull the binnacle at some point and lubricate. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com A water-filled rudder? That's a new one on me. I saw an ad once for a water-filled anchor that was just the cat's pajamas. Empty it out, it's really light. Fill it up, it gets really heavy. Fill it with fresh water and you have an extra supply of drinking water to boot. Well, ok... not filled but definitely had water intrusion... nice idea though.. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Please,someone! Go sailing and talk about it!
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message et... wrote in message ... Weather still not good enough here (high winds and deep draft plus shallow water equals bad boo) It's beginning to loo like ASAin here... Well, this isn't going to sound very manly after all the talk about fires, explosions, and rudder failure; but I went sailing on Saturday. It was chilly but the wind was OK... a tad on the light side, but OK considering the temps... raced on a friend's Islander 30 and got a 2nd & 3rd in class. Fresh Breezes- Doug King Good on ya, Doug! Glad someone is actually able to get out and sail this time of year. You could too if you'd get your priorities straight, Admiral. It's pretty dumb to live above the Arctic Circle and claim you love sailing. Duh! That's like some fool living in the Sahara Desert claiming she loves to snow ski. Get a clue, either move to where you can sail year round or stop the pretense that you're an avid sailor. You are just another lubberly homebody, or so it appears. Wilbur Hubbard |
Speaking of emergency steering
"Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... Well, ok... not filled but definitely had water intrusion... nice idea though.. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com When we first hauled our CT-41 for pre-purchase survey, the rudder "peed" for a few minutes. The yard let it dry out, poured some alcohol in near the top until it came out the same spot, then let it dry in the sun a few days. They injected it with epoxy at the top until it came out at the bottom, sealed it with duck tape (quack quack) and stood by with ice for a while to keep it from getting too hot while it cured. Never had another problem with it in six years. |
Speaking of emergency steering
"Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "KLC Lewis" wrote in message et... "Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... I saw a rudder that was filled with water, watched it drain when she was hauled, but it didn't fail. I suppose getting hit would do it or over time with corrosion. I regularly inspect the cables controlled by the quadrant on my boat, but never find anything. I'm going to pull the binnacle at some point and lubricate. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com A water-filled rudder? That's a new one on me. I saw an ad once for a water-filled anchor that was just the cat's pajamas. Empty it out, it's really light. Fill it up, it gets really heavy. Fill it with fresh water and you have an extra supply of drinking water to boot. Well, ok... not filled but definitely had water intrusion... nice idea though.. Did it morph into a lizard-like rudder as you watched it? Maybe the lizard was just peeing? How much longer do you think you'll be having those flashbacks? -- Gregory Hall |
Please,someone! Go sailing and talk about it!
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:20:15 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "KLC Lewis" wrote in message news:pbmdnaHxNJFisT7UnZ2dnUVZ_jyWnZ2d@centurytel. net... wrote in message ... Weather still not good enough here (high winds and deep draft plus shallow water equals bad boo) It's beginning to loo like ASAin here... Well, this isn't going to sound very manly after all the talk about fires, explosions, and rudder failure; but I went sailing on Saturday. It was chilly but the wind was OK... a tad on the light side, but OK considering the temps... raced on a friend's Islander 30 and got a 2nd & 3rd in class. Fresh Breezes- Doug King Good on ya, Doug! Glad someone is actually able to get out and sail this time of year. You could too if you'd get your priorities straight, Admiral. It's pretty dumb to live above the Arctic Circle and claim you love sailing. Duh! That's like some fool living in the Sahara Desert claiming she loves to snow ski. Get a clue, either move to where you can sail year round or stop the pretense that you're an avid sailor. You are just another lubberly homebody, or so it appears. Wilbur Hubbard AND THERES GOOD OLD WILBUR again. Here then, Willie, never heard of "ice boats" then. Stupid, stupid, wet water sailor. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Speaking of emergency steering
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:45:49 -0500, jeff wrote:
Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:04:59 -0500, jeff wrote: Catamarans of course have an issue since the keels are usually only slightly deeper than the rudders, so strikes are common. That can happen of course, but most monohull steering failures are caused by structural issues internal to the rudder or in the cables, blocks or quadrant. Yes - but cable issues are a different class of failure. Every boat should have some form of emergency tiller to make do when there is some type of linkage issue. No one should be stranded mid-ocean because of a quadrant or cable problem. So this leaves several failure modes - rudder falling off, post separating inside rudder, and post bending and jamming rudder. I wonder what the frequency of failure is for the various types of rudders. I read a fairly comprehensive analysis of rudder strength in some boating magazine - probably Practical Boat Owner - but it was several years ago. The article was an excerpt from the author's testimony as an expert witness in a court case involving the loss of a yacht rudder during a storm. So apparently it is not an unknown phenomena, and from the tone of the article, which did not mention the make of yacht but I think was a Benataou (sp?) and seemed to say that many yacht rudders were not constructed with the idea of being caught in a major storm in mind. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Speaking of emergency steering
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:29:36 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote: On Feb 23, 12:55*pm, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: "jeff" wrote in message ... snipped some So this leaves several failure modes - rudder falling off, post separating inside rudder, and post bending and jamming rudder. *I wonder what the frequency of failure is for the various types of rudders. Why not ask Joe. He's the expert on rudder failure. Bwahahhahahahah. Who would have thought a poorly designed rudder would sink a steel boat? Wilbur Hubbard Cecil,greg,wilbur, neal, ect..ect.. I've had a dozen or so failures I can recall. First in diego garcia on this boat before it was converted: http://www.ship564.org/boats.html They ID the boat due to a repair made after loosing steering and hitting a cement anchor bouy. No one was hurt. Cable broke One on a tug pushing 250 thousand gallons of diesel in a fuel flat. Was in a meeting situation in the ICW. Luckly it was caused by blowing a stb hydro hose, and the barge rammed the mud bank, had it been the port side it would have put the barge if front of a loaded gravel barge. We were in a 1 whistle agreement passing when it blew. Fixed that by replacing the hose. Crew & Supply boats....a dozen times, Pumps mostly, clogged filters..nothing serious, most boats had redundant units. And RedCloud. It had a worm gear unit like this : http://www.2carpros.com/how_does_it_...g_gear_box.jpg Just much more beefy. On the output shaft was a fulcrum to a fulcrum on the rudder shaft top. The tie rod between them was 1" steel rod and failed were the fulcrum attached to the rod on the output shaft of the worm gear. Without stops the rod after sheering went through the hull. I guess I could be called an expert now, I paid the tuition cost. How about you? Have many times have you lost steering, bent props, had fires, had injured crew, rescued anyone, been in a wreck, made a penny as a Captain? (imaginary times and fairy tales not included) Joe Good Lord, Joe - you had to ask? A guy on a permanently moored boat doesn't have problems with the steering gear or propellers and mentioning crew in discussions with Willie is not logical.... Who would willingly get in a boat with Wilbur... well, except for Gregory or one of his other socks. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Speaking of emergency steering
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:28:56 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote: On Feb 23, 4:13 am, "Roger Long" wrote: My rudder quadrant is pretty massive. In addition to an emergency tiller, the wind vane control lines attach to the quadrant so I can steer with the vane gear or by pulling on the lines. My concern is the stock breaking off of the steel plate inside the rudder at the weld and starting to just spin inside the rudder. Like most, mine fills with water and drains all winter. I'm thinking of adapting an idea from the old sailing ships an attaching a stout ring through bolted with straps to the rear upper corner of the rudder. This is just above the waterline on my boat. I can either run a line to this while standing on the boarding ladder or keep a light line rigged as shown he http://www.rogerlongboats.com/images/Esteerline.jpg Lines taken either side to blocks on the toe rail holes and then to the winches should give me some control at the cost of some topside chafing. I also have a very bunk bin board over my holding tank that is nearly as large as my rudder. I plan to obtain a suitable piece of pipe and pre-drill it for a tiller and to attach the pre-drilled bunk board to. This can be lashed to the wind vane tower. The ring on the rudder idea is simple though and applicable to many boats. If I can't find a suitable storage place for the stock long enough for plan A, I may just go with it alone. If Cecil isn't too busy packing, he should be along soon to point out that only boats with outboard rudders that are painted yellow can be considered seaworthy. However, I bought this boat and got stuck with it before discovering this group and having the benifit of his wisdom and experience so I'll just have to make do. -- Roger Long I like my chinese rudders. you lift them out of the way and its no problem building a new one. do folks actually have the rudder it self fail or is it normally some system connected to it? Ive had the cables or chains or hydro fail. but never had a rudder actually fail. most times I had a mechanical back up system or a tiller so it might have been a little inconvenient but not earth shaking. A friend was delivering a 40-some foot Warram cat from Phuket to Greece a couple of years ago and lost both rudders in a storm. Sailed that last bit of the trip with a hatch cover nailed to the wooden boom and he sail loose footed. As Warram designed the boat the rudders are tied on with double braid rope and apparently the fastenings came loose. Anyway, when he got back he had a discussion with the builder about rudder fastenings and they are no longer on speaking terms... So yes, rudders have been known to fall off. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Speaking of emergency steering
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:26:30 -0500, "Gregory Hall"
wrote: "Capt. JG" wrote in message reasolutions... "KLC Lewis" wrote in message et... "Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... I saw a rudder that was filled with water, watched it drain when she was hauled, but it didn't fail. I suppose getting hit would do it or over time with corrosion. I regularly inspect the cables controlled by the quadrant on my boat, but never find anything. I'm going to pull the binnacle at some point and lubricate. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com A water-filled rudder? That's a new one on me. I saw an ad once for a water-filled anchor that was just the cat's pajamas. Empty it out, it's really light. Fill it up, it gets really heavy. Fill it with fresh water and you have an extra supply of drinking water to boot. Well, ok... not filled but definitely had water intrusion... nice idea though.. Did it morph into a lizard-like rudder as you watched it? Maybe the lizard was just peeing? How much longer do you think you'll be having those flashbacks? What do you call the sock puppet of another sock puppet? A second-hand sock? A re-sock? Socket? Socker? Sockette? Or just ridiculous? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Speaking of emergency steering
"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
... On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:26:30 -0500, "Gregory Hall" wrote: "Capt. JG" wrote in message areasolutions... "KLC Lewis" wrote in message et... "Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... I saw a rudder that was filled with water, watched it drain when she was hauled, but it didn't fail. I suppose getting hit would do it or over time with corrosion. I regularly inspect the cables controlled by the quadrant on my boat, but never find anything. I'm going to pull the binnacle at some point and lubricate. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com A water-filled rudder? That's a new one on me. I saw an ad once for a water-filled anchor that was just the cat's pajamas. Empty it out, it's really light. Fill it up, it gets really heavy. Fill it with fresh water and you have an extra supply of drinking water to boot. Well, ok... not filled but definitely had water intrusion... nice idea though.. troll sh*t removed What do you call the sock puppet of another sock puppet? A second-hand sock? A re-sock? Socket? Socker? Sockette? Or just ridiculous? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) I'd call him a jerk. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Speaking of emergency steering
On Feb 23, 5:16 pm, Bruce in Bangkok decypher-
wrote: On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:26:30 -0500, "Gregory Hall" wrote: "Capt. JG" wrote in message reasolutions... "KLC Lewis" wrote in message news:nY2dnZIboLJQsD7UnZ2dnUVZ_umWnZ2d@centurytel .net... "Capt. JG" wrote in message yareasolutions... I saw a rudder that was filled with water, watched it drain when she was hauled, but it didn't fail. I suppose getting hit would do it or over time with corrosion. I regularly inspect the cables controlled by the quadrant on my boat, but never find anything. I'm going to pull the binnacle at some point and lubricate. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com A water-filled rudder? That's a new one on me. I saw an ad once for a water-filled anchor that was just the cat's pajamas. Empty it out, it's really light. Fill it up, it gets really heavy. Fill it with fresh water and you have an extra supply of drinking water to boot. Well, ok... not filled but definitely had water intrusion... nice idea though.. Did it morph into a lizard-like rudder as you watched it? Maybe the lizard was just peeing? How much longer do you think you'll be having those flashbacks? What do you call the sock puppet of another sock puppet? A second-hand sock? A re-sock? Socket? Socker? Sockette? Or just ridiculous? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) I suppose it would be miscellaneous hosiery. so hoser would work. |
Speaking of emergency steering
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:16:17 -0600, "KLC Lewis"
wrote: A water-filled rudder? That's a new one on me. I saw an ad once for a water-filled anchor that was just the cat's pajamas. Empty it out, it's really light. Fill it up, it gets really heavy. Fill it with fresh water and you have an extra supply of drinking water to boot. The weight of water in water is nothing. In other words the thing will be so bulky that its bouyancy will result in nearly no effective weight. Anchors need to be dense as well as heavy, the weight in the water is all that counts. Casady |
Please,someone! Go sailing and talk about it!
katy wrote:
Weather still not good enough here (high winds and deep draft plus shallow water equals bad boo) It's beginning to loo like ASAin here... Well, I'm about to go for a boat ride. I'm sitting here in my car waiting for the ferry to take me to town and work, does that count? Cheers Martin |
Speaking of emergency steering
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:16:17 -0600, "KLC Lewis" wrote: A water-filled rudder? That's a new one on me. I saw an ad once for a water-filled anchor that was just the cat's pajamas. Empty it out, it's really light. Fill it up, it gets really heavy. Fill it with fresh water and you have an extra supply of drinking water to boot. The weight of water in water is nothing. In other words the thing will be so bulky that its bouyancy will result in nearly no effective weight. Anchors need to be dense as well as heavy, the weight in the water is all that counts. Casady Uh, yeah. That's a given, I think. |
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