Skip:

Theoretical considerations aside, my advice would be to insulate your box to
the hilt and then install one of the many DC driven Danfoss compressor
systems with a direct evaporator coil, ie no holding plate. Alder Barbour
and others make them.

David

Hi, and thanks for the response.

"David&Joan" wrote in message
news:9i4Fc.6732$151.2942@fed1read02...
Skip:

Theoretical considerations aside, my advice would be to insulate your box
to
the hilt and then install one of the many DC driven Danfoss compressor
systems with a direct evaporator coil, ie no holding plate. Alder Barbour
and others make them.

David


Ah - now we get back to the discussion of evaporators and cold plates. I've
just got this thing for cold plates - and ours is an Adler Barbour system -
but if evaporators worked well, and I felt comfortable about not having to
worry about dinging them, I suppose I'd be ok with them.

However, I'm still trying to come up with the most efficient overall
electrical plan which doesn't use internal combustion any more than
absolutely necessary. Stories of reefers running happily off the solar or
wind make me happy, because most of the time they wouldn't need the battery
during the day, which - at least in the high season - will be when we're
gone most of the time. Depending on how much they cost, a
belt-and-suspenders approach might be worthwhile to consider:

We're going to redo the reefer. It's 19CF, with cold plates added some time
along the way, with a single hatch (see URL pix in sig), as originally laid
out as an icebox by Moorings, but divided so that a freezer section would be
easy. When we redo the top to have two hatches, as it's so big, we'll add
insulation and some fancy ceramic paint which adds some amazing R value for
a coat of paint. It's plenty big to add some insulation material and leave
the current cold plates (engine and AC on one of them, both 26* units),
*and* add evaporator plates around the perimeters. I also intend micro fans
(always on, in the bottoms) to move the air to even out the temps, and mega
gaskets and way-insulated tops as well. (I recall reading that the only
notable difference in the high-insulating coolers for the
picnic/camper/RV-tailgater crowd is an insulated vs not insulated lid, and
others in these fora and various mailing lists have cited the same in their
boxes' efficiency.)

Glenn was kind enough to give me a long dissertation on the merits of cold
plates and evaporators long ago in this space, so we don't need a
repetition, though others just joining the party might enjoy it/them. I'm
still of mixed mind. In the end, I want it to stay cold in the most
efficient manner. This will be our home, all year round, in the tropics, so
doing it well is important. The specific means of achievement (cold plate,
evaporator or mix)isn't really important. Part of my challenge is, I
realize, a fetish about not running internal combustion motors if I can
avoid it, complicated by our expected lifestyle of working ashore with the
boat on a mooring for some months per year. I anticipate we'll have awnings
and shades, but we won't run A/C, so it will be warm inside...

Thanks again for the input...

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a
clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize
that you are quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to
you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an
insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly
so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is
an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a
permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated
by your friends." - James S. Pitkin

It is possible to have refrigeration on your boat without running the
engine. Here is a basic design concept that will allow wind or solar
power to support onboard refrigerator.
1. The refrigerated box needs to have at least four inches of
encapsulated urethane insulation. The size of the box and the
temperature to be maintained inside the box will determine the daily
energy required.
2. The decision as to wind or solar for energy depends on anchoring
and cruising locations. Large heavy boats that like to anchor out
where there is more of a breeze might be better suited to wind power.
In South Florida Solar Power seems to be the preferred alternative
power.
3. There are only two small 12 volt compressors today that can be
efficiently adapted to wind or solar power, the Danfoss BD35 and BD50.
4. To take full advantage of the new Danfoss variable speed
efficiency with alternative energy, manual or automatic speed
switching controls are required.
5. It is also possible to save 3 to 6 amp-hrs per day in some cruising
areas with a keel cooler.

Here is an example of a system in a three cubic ft. box with four
inches of urethane insulation, with a planed cruising area of the
Bahamas:
The condensing unit would be a Danfoss BD35 compressor either a WAECO
85 or a Technautics Coolblue. If the Coolblue were selected which is a
holding plate system a voltage startup switch would be added This
switch would bypass the thermostat when a charge current was
available from any source exceeding 12.8 volts the compressor would
run.
Seventy five watts of un-shaded, adjustable solar panels is the
minimum requirement for this example.
Two additional gulf cart six volt batteries are needed to produce 12
volts and would be wired to solar panels and refrigeration unit.
Between the gulf cart bank and the house bank there is a Battery
Combiner to link them together when a charge current is available.
To complete the system a battery monitoring instrument is required.

There are several wiring diagrams of these systems in my 12/24 Volt
Refrigeration Manual

From the author of four books on boat refrigeration
http://www.kollmann-marine.com




"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message ...
Hi, and thanks for the response.

"David&Joan" wrote in message
news:9i4Fc.6732$151.2942@fed1read02...
Skip:

Theoretical considerations aside, my advice would be to insulate your box
to
the hilt and then install one of the many DC driven Danfoss compressor
systems with a direct evaporator coil, ie no holding plate. Alder Barbour
and others make them.

David


Ah - now we get back to the discussion of evaporators and cold plates. I've
just got this thing for cold plates - and ours is an Adler Barbour system -
but if evaporators worked well, and I felt comfortable about not having to
worry about dinging them, I suppose I'd be ok with them.

However, I'm still trying to come up with the most efficient overall
electrical plan which doesn't use internal combustion any more than
absolutely necessary. Stories of reefers running happily off the solar or
wind make me happy, because most of the time they wouldn't need the battery
during the day, which - at least in the high season - will be when we're
gone most of the time. Depending on how much they cost, a
belt-and-suspenders approach might be worthwhile to consider:

We're going to redo the reefer. It's 19CF, with cold plates added some time
along the way, with a single hatch (see URL pix in sig), as originally laid
out as an icebox by Moorings, but divided so that a freezer section would be
easy. When we redo the top to have two hatches, as it's so big, we'll add
insulation and some fancy ceramic paint which adds some amazing R value for
a coat of paint. It's plenty big to add some insulation material and leave
the current cold plates (engine and AC on one of them, both 26* units),
*and* add evaporator plates around the perimeters. I also intend micro fans
(always on, in the bottoms) to move the air to even out the temps, and mega
gaskets and way-insulated tops as well. (I recall reading that the only
notable difference in the high-insulating coolers for the
picnic/camper/RV-tailgater crowd is an insulated vs not insulated lid, and
others in these fora and various mailing lists have cited the same in their
boxes' efficiency.)

Glenn was kind enough to give me a long dissertation on the merits of cold
plates and evaporators long ago in this space, so we don't need a
repetition, though others just joining the party might enjoy it/them. I'm
still of mixed mind. In the end, I want it to stay cold in the most
efficient manner. This will be our home, all year round, in the tropics, so
doing it well is important. The specific means of achievement (cold plate,
evaporator or mix)isn't really important. Part of my challenge is, I
realize, a fetish about not running internal combustion motors if I can
avoid it, complicated by our expected lifestyle of working ashore with the
boat on a mooring for some months per year. I anticipate we'll have awnings
and shades, but we won't run A/C, so it will be warm inside...

Thanks again for the input...

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a
clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize
that you are quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to
you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an
insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly
so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is
an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a
permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated
by your friends." - James S. Pitkin

propane. it has been around since Kriste was a corporal in the infantry.

It is possible to have refrigeration on your boat without running the
engine. Here is a basic design concept that will allow wind or solar
power to support onboard refrigerator.
1. The refrigerated box needs to have at least four inches of
encapsulated urethane insulation. The size of the box and the
temperature to be maintained inside the box will determine the daily
energy required.
2. The decision as to wind or solar for energy depends on anchoring
and cruising locations. Large heavy boats that like to anchor out
where there is more of a breeze might be better suited to wind power.
In South Florida Solar Power seems to be the preferred alternative
power.
3. There are only two small 12 volt compressors today that can be
efficiently adapted to wind or solar power, the Danfoss BD35 and BD50.
4. To take full advantage of the new Danfoss variable speed
efficiency with alternative energy, manual or automatic speed
switching controls are required.
5. It is also possible to save 3 to 6 amp-hrs per day in some cruising
areas with a keel cooler.

Here is an example of a system in a three cubic ft. box with four
inches of urethane insulation, with a planed cruising area of the
Bahamas:
The condensing unit would be a Danfoss BD35 compressor either a WAECO
85 or a Technautics Coolblue. If the Coolblue were selected which is a
holding plate system a voltage startup switch would be added This
switch would bypass the thermostat when a charge current was
available from any source exceeding 12.8 volts the compressor would
run.
Seventy five watts of un-shaded, adjustable solar panels is the
minimum requirement for this example.
Two additional gulf cart six volt batteries are needed to produce 12
volts and would be wired to solar panels and refrigeration unit.
Between the gulf cart bank and the house bank there is a Battery
Combiner to link them together when a charge current is available.
To complete the system a battery monitoring instrument is required.

There are several wiring diagrams of these systems in my 12/24 Volt
Refrigeration Manual

From the author of four books on boat refrigeration
http://www.kollmann-marine.com




"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
message ...
Hi, and thanks for the response.

"David&Joan" wrote in message
news:9i4Fc.6732$151.2942@fed1read02...
Skip:

Theoretical considerations aside, my advice would be to insulate your box
to
the hilt and then install one of the many DC driven Danfoss compressor
systems with a direct evaporator coil, ie no holding plate. Alder Barbour
and others make them.

David


Ah - now we get back to the discussion of evaporators and cold plates.
I've
just got this thing for cold plates - and ours is an Adler Barbour system -
but if evaporators worked well, and I felt comfortable about not having to
worry about dinging them, I suppose I'd be ok with them.

However, I'm still trying to come up with the most efficient overall
electrical plan which doesn't use internal combustion any more than
absolutely necessary. Stories of reefers running happily off the solar or
wind make me happy, because most of the time they wouldn't need the battery
during the day, which - at least in the high season - will be when we're
gone most of the time. Depending on how much they cost, a
belt-and-suspenders approach might be worthwhile to consider:

We're going to redo the reefer. It's 19CF, with cold plates added some
time
along the way, with a single hatch (see URL pix in sig), as originally laid
out as an icebox by Moorings, but divided so that a freezer section would
be
easy. When we redo the top to have two hatches, as it's so big, we'll add
insulation and some fancy ceramic paint which adds some amazing R value for
a coat of paint. It's plenty big to add some insulation material and leave
the current cold plates (engine and AC on one of them, both 26* units),
*and* add evaporator plates around the perimeters. I also intend micro
fans
(always on, in the bottoms) to move the air to even out the temps, and mega
gaskets and way-insulated tops as well. (I recall reading that the only
notable difference in the high-insulating coolers for the
picnic/camper/RV-tailgater crowd is an insulated vs not insulated lid, and
others in these fora and various mailing lists have cited the same in their
boxes' efficiency.)

Glenn was kind enough to give me a long dissertation on the merits of cold
plates and evaporators long ago in this space, so we don't need a
repetition, though others just joining the party might enjoy it/them. I'm
still of mixed mind. In the end, I want it to stay cold in the most
efficient manner. This will be our home, all year round, in the tropics,
so
doing it well is important. The specific means of achievement (cold plate,
evaporator or mix)isn't really important. Part of my challenge is, I
realize, a fetish about not running internal combustion motors if I can
avoid it, complicated by our expected lifestyle of working ashore with the
boat on a mooring for some months per year. I anticipate we'll have
awnings
and shades, but we won't run A/C, so it will be warm inside...

Thanks again for the input...

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a
clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize
that you are quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to
you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an
insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly
so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is
an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a
permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated
by your friends." - James S. Pitkin

In article ,
(JAXAshby) wrote:

propane. it has been around since Kriste was a corporal in the infantry.

and one should want an explosive gas onboard a sailboat, why?????

me

I have a 8 foot fridge and a 5 foot freezer cooled by a 1/2 hp Crosby holding
plate system. If I had to do it over again, I might go with two Danfoss base
units. Redundancy and flexibility are good.


"David&Joan" wrote in message
news:9i4Fc.6732$151.2942@fed1read02...
Skip:

Theoretical considerations aside, my advice would be to insulate your box to
the hilt and then install one of the many DC driven Danfoss compressor
systems with a direct evaporator coil, ie no holding plate. Alder Barbour
and others make them.

David

"David&Joan" wrote in
news:9i4Fc.6732$151.2942@fed1read02:

Skip:

Theoretical considerations aside, my advice would be to insulate your
box to the hilt and then install one of the many DC driven Danfoss
compressor systems with a direct evaporator coil, ie no holding plate.
Alder Barbour and others make them.

David



AAAAACCCCCKKKKKK!!!! ADLER BARBOUR!!

If you install an Adler-Barbour electronic 12V compressor, be SURE you put
it into an RF shielded screen room! We had one on "Claire's Navie" that
had this AWFUL pulsing RF noise ON VHF CHANNEL 16!....

Bzzt....Bzzt.....Bzzt,Bzzt,Bzzt.....Bzzt......Bzzt .......Bzzt, Bzzt,
Bzzt....repeating the exact sequence of SQUELCH OPENINGS on both VHF radios
for your entire watch!

Drove us crazy until I turned the damned thing OFF~! Only bothered Channel
16...of all the channels....JUST 16.

Larry

Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) Is not an Adler Barbour
refrigeration problem as Larry indicates it is a boat refrigeration
industry problem. It seems that only a very few boaters are concerned
with RFI, the others are willing to set the VHF squelch high enough to
silence it out. A few system manufacturers have received complaints
from ham operators about RF from their refrigerators or other boat's
refrigerator's parked nearby. On the few boats that are experiencing a
problem the full box copper screen over the condensing unit does seem
to satisfy at least three radio operators that answered my resent
survey.



Larry W4CSC wrote in message ...
"David&Joan" wrote in
news:9i4Fc.6732$151.2942@fed1read02:

Skip:

Theoretical considerations aside, my advice would be to insulate your
box to the hilt and then install one of the many DC driven Danfoss
compressor systems with a direct evaporator coil, ie no holding plate.
Alder Barbour and others make them.

David



AAAAACCCCCKKKKKK!!!! ADLER BARBOUR!!

If you install an Adler-Barbour electronic 12V compressor, be SURE you put
it into an RF shielded screen room! We had one on "Claire's Navie" that
had this AWFUL pulsing RF noise ON VHF CHANNEL 16!....

Bzzt....Bzzt.....Bzzt,Bzzt,Bzzt.....Bzzt......Bzzt .......Bzzt, Bzzt,
Bzzt....repeating the exact sequence of SQUELCH OPENINGS on both VHF radios
for your entire watch!

Drove us crazy until I turned the damned thing OFF~! Only bothered Channel
16...of all the channels....JUST 16.

Larry

In article ,
(Richard Kollmann) wrote:

Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) Is not an Adler Barbour
refrigeration problem as Larry indicates it is a boat refrigeration
industry problem. It seems that only a very few boaters are concerned
with RFI, the others are willing to set the VHF squelch high enough to
silence it out. A few system manufacturers have received complaints
from ham operators about RF from their refrigerators or other boat's
refrigerator's parked nearby. On the few boats that are experiencing a
problem the full box copper screen over the condensing unit does seem
to satisfy at least three radio operators that answered my resent
survey

and why on earth, would one want to purchase an RFI Generator in
the first place just because the OEM's are to cheap to engineer
the refrigeration package right in the first place. For you
guys, that sell your junk to unsuspecting noncommercial boaters,
you can get away with that stuff, but just try and do that on a
Commercial Vessel (tug, pushboat, passenger boat, fish boat, or
ferry, ect) and you'll see the guy back in your shop after the
first trip, complaining about the NOISE it is causing in his radios,
and ready to rip the stuff out and toss it thru your front window.
These guys depend on a working radio with no noise. That radio
is their lifeline, when things go wrong, and when that happens,
they don't have time to go lookiing for the noise, and how to
turn it off. On an Inspected Vessel, they would tolerate that
kind of stuff onboard as they couldn't get a SOLAS Certificate
Issued, with RFI coming from onboard.


Bruce in alaska who HAS denied SOLAS Certificates due to
onboard RFI.......
--
add a 2 before @

Comment below....

On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 00:18:06 GMT, Bruce in Alaska wrote:

In article ,
(Richard Kollmann) wrote:

Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) Is not an Adler Barbour
refrigeration problem as Larry indicates it is a boat refrigeration
industry problem. It seems that only a very few boaters are concerned
with RFI, the others are willing to set the VHF squelch high enough to
silence it out. A few system manufacturers have received complaints
from ham operators about RF from their refrigerators or other boat's
refrigerator's parked nearby. On the few boats that are experiencing a
problem the full box copper screen over the condensing unit does seem
to satisfy at least three radio operators that answered my resent
survey

and why on earth, would one want to purchase an RFI Generator in
the first place just because the OEM's are to cheap to engineer
the refrigeration package right in the first place. For you
guys, that sell your junk to unsuspecting noncommercial boaters,
you can get away with that stuff, but just try and do that on a
Commercial Vessel (tug, pushboat, passenger boat, fish boat, or
ferry, ect) and you'll see the guy back in your shop after the
first trip, complaining about the NOISE it is causing in his radios,
and ready to rip the stuff out and toss it thru your front window.
These guys depend on a working radio with no noise. That radio
is their lifeline, when things go wrong, and when that happens,
they don't have time to go lookiing for the noise, and how to
turn it off. On an Inspected Vessel, they would tolerate that
kind of stuff onboard as they couldn't get a SOLAS Certificate
Issued, with RFI coming from onboard.


Bruce in alaska who HAS denied SOLAS Certificates due to
onboard RFI.......

I have to agree with Bruce. As one who has designed a number
of commercial and industrial electronic products, I'll be the first
to admit designing to minimum RFI is a pain...mostly the testing
to make sure it was done right...but the techniques are so well
known it isn't rocket science anymore. There's really no excuse for
electrical equipment to cause RFI, either conducted or radiated.
Norm B