So this Hunter 33' was a liveaboard, everything on that end "works," but
it hasn't been sailed for a long time and when it was there looks to be
some slightly, um irregular items used.

Anyway, it doesn't have a roller furling, but it has a (foil)? on the
forestay with a guide. It only had one headsail, which needed repair, so
I'm getting used sails.

Getting to the point, should I convert to hanks? Does going up and down
in the foil damage the sail significantly? Is there some other
advantages either way I should consider?

Stephen

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...

Getting to the point, should I convert to hanks? Does going up and down
in the foil damage the sail significantly? Is there some other
advantages either way I should consider?

Unless you're racing, a luff foil has no advantage (other than aerodynamic)
over hanks. If you set up a reasonable downhaul system, the hanked
headsail is nice because it comes down when you want it. With a foil
you have to go forward to douse, and when you're dowsing the
sail is gradually getting less attached to the boat and can be
hard to control in a big wind, which is why the sail is coming
down in the first place

As far as wear goes, there should be no difference if you handle
the sails correctly. I have seen headsails damaged in a foil but it was
because someone thought that when the sail sticks you just grind on
the winch harder, instead of taking the sail down and releading the tape.

Actually I lied about the hanked sail. The hanks can sometimes leave
stains on the sail (which doesn't happen with a foil), the pistons on the
hanks can get salt encrusted/corroded and hard to remove from the
stay (that's what McLube is for), the hanks can chafe the sail when
it's stowed, and they can bark your knuckles when you're packing
the sail. These are all pretty minor though.

Matt

Everything that MattMeribeth (what a name!!??) is true.
What you have is probably a TUFF LUFF system. Candle wax works best to
lube a luff tape for such foils ... doesnt accumulate crud, just rub it
on the luff tape.

There is a shape problem that should be addressed:
If you go back to hanks you probably need to reluff the sail using 3
strand dacron boltrope - 1. to support the hanks from 'tear-out' 2.
restore the sail (if originally constructed for 3 strand boltrope).
..... such a boltrope is usually *prestretched* approx. 1" for every
10-11 ft. of luff length, then sewn/locked.
Luff tape sails are usually cut for no preloaded/prestretched, boltrope
luff sail usually need the preload ...... both to maximize the entry
SHAPE at the luff. It all depends if the luff tape matches the
'stretch' of the original boltrope when loaded by the haloyard.

If the sail shows 'scars' (evidence of removed stitching, etc.) of
having a prior boltrope/hanks then you should consider to restore to a
boltrope (with the preload). If NO sewing scars, then probably keeping
the luff tape and foil is best ... Its damn hard to convert from one
system to another and keep GOOD sail shape. Typically when going from
a luff tape to a hank/boltrope you wind up with a very fast but very
flat entry .... and not good for pounding and yawing into chop.

But then you probably already know how to shape by halyard tension to
properly position the location of max draft.

In article .net,
Matt/Meribeth Pedersen wrote:

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...

Getting to the point, should I convert to hanks? Does going up and down
in the foil damage the sail significantly? Is there some other
advantages either way I should consider?

Unless you're racing, a luff foil has no advantage (other than aerodynamic)
over hanks. If you set up a reasonable downhaul system, the hanked
headsail is nice because it comes down when you want it. With a foil
you have to go forward to douse, and when you're dowsing the
sail is gradually getting less attached to the boat and can be
hard to control in a big wind, which is why the sail is coming
down in the first place

As far as wear goes, there should be no difference if you handle
the sails correctly. I have seen headsails damaged in a foil but it was
because someone thought that when the sail sticks you just grind on
the winch harder, instead of taking the sail down and releading the tape.

Actually I lied about the hanked sail. The hanks can sometimes leave
stains on the sail (which doesn't happen with a foil), the pistons on the
hanks can get salt encrusted/corroded and hard to remove from the
stay (that's what McLube is for), the hanks can chafe the sail when
it's stowed, and they can bark your knuckles when you're packing
the sail. These are all pretty minor though.

Matt

Stephen,

This is possibly the most accurate thread I have seen in a long time.

There are two as yet unlisted advantages to a foil (be it a HeadFoil or
Tuff Luff). You can change heads sails with out going bald and the
sails fold smaller.

I have a foil on a cruising boat.
Would I advise it?? No.

My sails will come down with out pulling, but you still end up with the
sail loose on deck - except the tack. We have net in the foredeck
lifeline and lots of stops to ties sails up, but it still is something
that has to be done forward.

The only reason I would not suggest going with hanks would be if your
plans include installing a roller. If they do not, you should be
considered now. A Hunter 33 will never be a competitive boat by any
stretch and besides, its a whole lot cheaper to race with someone else
and then cruise your own.

Matt Colie
Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Perpetual Sailor



Rich Hampel wrote:
Everything that MattMeribeth (what a name!!??) is true.
What you have is probably a TUFF LUFF system. Candle wax works best to
lube a luff tape for such foils ... doesnt accumulate crud, just rub it
on the luff tape.

There is a shape problem that should be addressed:
If you go back to hanks you probably need to reluff the sail using 3
strand dacron boltrope - 1. to support the hanks from 'tear-out' 2.
restore the sail (if originally constructed for 3 strand boltrope).
.... such a boltrope is usually *prestretched* approx. 1" for every
10-11 ft. of luff length, then sewn/locked.
Luff tape sails are usually cut for no preloaded/prestretched, boltrope
luff sail usually need the preload ...... both to maximize the entry
SHAPE at the luff. It all depends if the luff tape matches the
'stretch' of the original boltrope when loaded by the haloyard.

If the sail shows 'scars' (evidence of removed stitching, etc.) of
having a prior boltrope/hanks then you should consider to restore to a
boltrope (with the preload). If NO sewing scars, then probably keeping
the luff tape and foil is best ... Its damn hard to convert from one
system to another and keep GOOD sail shape. Typically when going from
a luff tape to a hank/boltrope you wind up with a very fast but very
flat entry .... and not good for pounding and yawing into chop.

But then you probably already know how to shape by halyard tension to
properly position the location of max draft.

In article .net,
Matt/Meribeth Pedersen wrote:


"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...


Getting to the point, should I convert to hanks? Does going up and down
in the foil damage the sail significantly? Is there some other
advantages either way I should consider?

Unless you're racing, a luff foil has no advantage (other than aerodynamic)
over hanks. If you set up a reasonable downhaul system, the hanked
headsail is nice because it comes down when you want it. With a foil
you have to go forward to douse, and when you're dowsing the
sail is gradually getting less attached to the boat and can be
hard to control in a big wind, which is why the sail is coming
down in the first place

As far as wear goes, there should be no difference if you handle
the sails correctly. I have seen headsails damaged in a foil but it was
because someone thought that when the sail sticks you just grind on
the winch harder, instead of taking the sail down and releading the tape.

Actually I lied about the hanked sail. The hanks can sometimes leave
stains on the sail (which doesn't happen with a foil), the pistons on the
hanks can get salt encrusted/corroded and hard to remove from the
stay (that's what McLube is for), the hanks can chafe the sail when
it's stowed, and they can bark your knuckles when you're packing
the sail. These are all pretty minor though.

Matt

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:58:21 -0400, Matt Colie
wrote:

Stephen,

This is possibly the most accurate thread I have seen in a long time.

There are two as yet unlisted advantages to a foil (be it a HeadFoil or
Tuff Luff). You can change heads sails with out going bald and the
sails fold smaller.

I have a foil on a cruising boat.
Would I advise it?? No.

My sails will come down with out pulling, but you still end up with the
sail loose on deck - except the tack. We have net in the foredeck
lifeline and lots of stops to ties sails up, but it still is something
that has to be done forward.

The only reason I would not suggest going with hanks would be if your
plans include installing a roller. If they do not, you should be
considered now. A Hunter 33 will never be a competitive boat by any
stretch and besides, its a whole lot cheaper to race with someone else
and then cruise your own.

Matt Colie
Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Perpetual Sailor



Rich Hampel wrote:
Everything that MattMeribeth (what a name!!??) is true.
What you have is probably a TUFF LUFF system. Candle wax works best to
lube a luff tape for such foils ... doesnt accumulate crud, just rub it
on the luff tape.

There is a shape problem that should be addressed:
If you go back to hanks you probably need to reluff the sail using 3
strand dacron boltrope - 1. to support the hanks from 'tear-out' 2.
restore the sail (if originally constructed for 3 strand boltrope).
.... such a boltrope is usually *prestretched* approx. 1" for every
10-11 ft. of luff length, then sewn/locked.
Luff tape sails are usually cut for no preloaded/prestretched, boltrope
luff sail usually need the preload ...... both to maximize the entry
SHAPE at the luff. It all depends if the luff tape matches the
'stretch' of the original boltrope when loaded by the haloyard.

If the sail shows 'scars' (evidence of removed stitching, etc.) of
having a prior boltrope/hanks then you should consider to restore to a
boltrope (with the preload). If NO sewing scars, then probably keeping
the luff tape and foil is best ... Its damn hard to convert from one
system to another and keep GOOD sail shape. Typically when going from
a luff tape to a hank/boltrope you wind up with a very fast but very
flat entry .... and not good for pounding and yawing into chop.

But then you probably already know how to shape by halyard tension to
properly position the location of max draft.

In article .net,
Matt/Meribeth Pedersen wrote:


"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...


Getting to the point, should I convert to hanks? Does going up and down
in the foil damage the sail significantly? Is there some other
advantages either way I should consider?

Unless you're racing, a luff foil has no advantage (other than aerodynamic)
over hanks. If you set up a reasonable downhaul system, the hanked
headsail is nice because it comes down when you want it. With a foil
you have to go forward to douse, and when you're dowsing the
sail is gradually getting less attached to the boat and can be
hard to control in a big wind, which is why the sail is coming
down in the first place

As far as wear goes, there should be no difference if you handle
the sails correctly. I have seen headsails damaged in a foil but it was
because someone thought that when the sail sticks you just grind on
the winch harder, instead of taking the sail down and releading the tape.

Actually I lied about the hanked sail. The hanks can sometimes leave
stains on the sail (which doesn't happen with a foil), the pistons on the
hanks can get salt encrusted/corroded and hard to remove from the
stay (that's what McLube is for), the hanks can chafe the sail when
it's stowed, and they can bark your knuckles when you're packing
the sail. These are all pretty minor though.

Matt

I must go further than Matt Colie, and say this may be the most
accurate thread I can remember seeing.

When Barbara and I didn't own a boat, we chartered J30s and J35s in
the Chesapeake, Maine, and RI. All had luff spars (TuffLuff on the
J30s, Hood Gemini on the J35s).

With the masthead J35 we sometimes enjoyed doing peel changes on
occasion, but with two people cruising it amounts to showing off,
perhaps?

Anyway, when we bought Gio/a (J36) in 1989, it had TuffLuff, and a
huge inventory of mostly not very good sails accumulated in 9 seasons
of racing. With the big mainsail we had much less incentive to change
jibs than on the J35s.

I had hanks in the back of my mind for two or three seasons when the
TuffLuff exploded in a stiff breeze in Rockland Harbor. I almost felt
relief, especially when a local sailmaker put hanks on our blade and
#2 overnight.

I was exstatic the first time we dropped a hanked sail on deck. It is
pure bliss, compared to keeping a loose sail on deck. Since then we
have had new jibs made with hanks.

But, this is a fractional rig, and we use a #3 almost all the time. At
the age of 68 I appreciate being able to tack the jib without a lot of
winch grinding.

Note: I am not disagreeing with the four posts that came before. I am
just adding my own perspective.





Rodney Myrvaagnes Opinionated old geezer

Brutal dictators are routinely reelected by 90+%
margins. Only in a truly advanced democracy can
one win an election by a negative 600,000 votes.

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:41:51 -0400, Rodney Myrvaagnes
wrote:



Note: I am not disagreeing with the four posts that came before. I am
just adding my own perspective.

Interesting thread. From my own perspective:

I blew out a light No. 1 Genoa in 22 knots rounding a headland...don't
ask...As it was about 20 years old, I didn't really feel bad, but
cutting the leech line so the poor old thing could ease off the
spreader whilst yelling at the wife to luff the main into the
wind...now...THAT was educational.

Sailors, ALWAYS carry a knife on your person....

Anyway, that old rag isn't worth fixing unless I decide to practise
sew for kicks. So when I saw a Kevlar composite racing sail for very
few dollars, I thought...hmm, the measurements are close enough to fit
my boat as a 145% (as opposed to 153%) No. 1.

Problem was: luff tape. I am a hank-on fan until I go world cruising.
Which is not yet: I cruise Lake Ontario and I cruise like I'm racing,
with the emphasis on pointing, tuning and setting for optimum sail
power and efficiency. Makes the sundowner somehow seem...earned.

I am having the sail recut and it should be deliver this week. I
bought a Kevlar main in the same cheapo deal, so if this luff to hanks
conversion, or reversion, or whatever...works well, I will retire my
1985 main in favour of a nice light air Kevlar racing main, because we
have mostly light air here in Toronto. I'll report back to this
thread.

And yet the NOOD regatta this weekend had 25 knots WNW today. Go
figure.

R.