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rigging wire
How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as
galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy power poles with. Casady |
rigging wire
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy power poles with. Casady Duh. Galvanized wire rusts after a season or two in a salt water environment. (Anchor chain is galvanized and it rusts after a season or two.) Run bronze hanks up and down a galvanized headstay for a season and the zinc wears off. Galvanized rigging is an anachronism. Wilbur Hubbard |
rigging wire
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rigging wire
Richard Casady wrote:
How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy power poles with. Casady The congenitally cheap (not to mention me) join the work boat riggers in choosing galvanized, often enough.... Brian W |
rigging wire
Richard Casady wrote:
How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy power poles with. Casady Well, the price differential isn't that high, if you don't buy SS wire that is preceded by the six most expensive letters in the English alphabet; M A R I N E. The basic material is more costly, and great deal more galvanized is used throughout the world, cranes, tow cable, highway restraint cable, antenna guys, drilling derricks......etc. Properly cared for galvanized will out last steel, take an old boat restoration class or two, ignore Wilbur/Neal, he knows nothing about boats. Cheers Martin |
rigging wire
Marty wrote:
Richard Casady wrote: How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy power poles with. Casady Well, the price differential isn't that high, if you don't buy SS wire that is preceded by the six most expensive letters in the English alphabet; M A R I N E. The basic material is more costly, and great deal more galvanized is used throughout the world, cranes, tow cable, highway restraint cable, antenna guys, drilling derricks......etc. Properly cared for galvanized will out last steel, take an old boat restoration class or two, ignore Wilbur/Neal, he knows nothing about boats. Cheers Martin Bernard Boitessier rigged Joshua with galvanized wire and wood poles. Worked for him. Not exactly light or pretty but worked. |
rigging wire
hpeer wrote:
Properly cared for galvanized will out last steel, take an old boat restoration class or two, ignore Wilbur/Neal, he knows nothing about boats. Cheers Martin Bernard Boitessier rigged Joshua with galvanized wire and wood poles. Worked for him. Not exactly light or pretty but worked. Indeed, check out the great sailing vessels of the end of the 19th century and early 20th, some of which are still plying the seas. Cheers Martin |
rigging wire
On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 21:29:43 -0500, Marty wrote:
Indeed, check out the great sailing vessels of the end of the 19th century Hitler built three tall ships, for Naval officer training. The USCG has one they renamed Eagle. The other two are still around. There is a tall ship in Stockholm that is now a Youth Hostel Stayed there in 69. The Af Chapman. It had been a training ship as well as a freighter. Casady |
rigging wire
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rigging wire
On Feb 9, 10:35 pm, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 23:46:11 GMT, (Richard Casady) wrote: How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy power poles with. Casady Basically using galvanized wire rope just takes a LOT more maintenance, and a LOT more time to build. If you are doing your own work then perhaps it is more economical, but if you are paying others the it is doubtful The first problem comes when you attempt to locate proper heavy duty thimbles for the eyes. Damned hard to find. Next comes splicing the eyes in the cables. Again, if you can do it yourself and have the tools then go for it but if you are paying rigger's rates then get your wallet ready. Now you have the cables cut, spliced around proper heavy duty thimbles. Next step is to worm, parcel and serve all splices and usually the lower cables up 10 - 15 feet above the deck. Once that is done you need to mix up some slushing and paint the cables, working it well into the wrappings. Now! At last, you can rig the boat. But remember that annually you will need to inspect, replace worn wrappings and re-slush all the cables and slushing is a mixture of tar, oil, Japan dryer and various other arcane substances. (think roofing tar) so don't even begin to think about slushing down the rigging while in a marina slip as you will sprinkle not only your deck but your neighbor's decks with sticky, black, tarry gunk. Now, having said all that you might be interested that properly maintained galvanized rigging will out last stainless. Cheers, Bruce Bruce where the hell do you get that idea? spend a couple pennies more and get the better galv. you just described what i do to my standing rigging and mine is all manella and hemp. yes with proper care galv will out last SS but the level of care is not serving the bloody thing. you soak the cable warm for a bit till the grave penetrates the core and then gravy the outside about twice a year. |
rigging wire
"Marty" wrote in message ... Richard Casady wrote: How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy power poles with. Casady Well, the price differential isn't that high, if you don't buy SS wire that is preceded by the six most expensive letters in the English alphabet; M A R I N E. The basic material is more costly, and great deal more galvanized is used throughout the world, cranes, tow cable, highway restraint cable, antenna guys, drilling derricks......etc. Properly cared for galvanized will out last steel, take an old boat restoration class or two, ignore Wilbur/Neal, he knows nothing about boats. Yes, it is Ok in any application where you can grease it. But you can't grease your rigging unless you want your sails, ropes and everything else to get covered in it. |
rigging wire
"hpeer" wrote in message m... Marty wrote: Richard Casady wrote: How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy power poles with. Casady Well, the price differential isn't that high, if you don't buy SS wire that is preceded by the six most expensive letters in the English alphabet; M A R I N E. The basic material is more costly, and great deal more galvanized is used throughout the world, cranes, tow cable, highway restraint cable, antenna guys, drilling derricks......etc. Properly cared for galvanized will out last steel, take an old boat restoration class or two, ignore Wilbur/Neal, he knows nothing about boats. Cheers Martin Bernard Boitessier rigged Joshua with galvanized wire and wood poles. Worked for him. Not exactly light or pretty but worked. Galvanised rigging looks perfectly OK but will start to rust after a year or two. However this rusting is easy to check, since it will almost always start at the lower ends of the shrouds where salt spray reaches it most often. For this reason you mut periodically remove the seizing from the splice at the lower end to make sure that hidden rust has not started inside the splice. |
rigging wire
"Marty" wrote in message ... hpeer wrote: Properly cared for galvanized will out last steel, take an old boat restoration class or two, ignore Wilbur/Neal, he knows nothing about boats. Cheers Martin Bernard Boitessier rigged Joshua with galvanized wire and wood poles. Worked for him. Not exactly light or pretty but worked. Indeed, check out the great sailing vessels of the end of the 19th century and early 20th, some of which are still plying the seas. They were not yachts so there was no objection to coating the wires frequently with Stockholm tar to prevent corrosion. Anyway stainless steel was only invented around WW1 time |
rigging wire
Edgar wrote:
"Marty" wrote in message ... Richard Casady wrote: How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy power poles with. Casady Well, the price differential isn't that high, if you don't buy SS wire that is preceded by the six most expensive letters in the English alphabet; M A R I N E. The basic material is more costly, and great deal more galvanized is used throughout the world, cranes, tow cable, highway restraint cable, antenna guys, drilling derricks......etc. Properly cared for galvanized will out last steel, take an old boat restoration class or two, ignore Wilbur/Neal, he knows nothing about boats. Yes, it is Ok in any application where you can grease it. But you can't grease your rigging unless you want your sails, ropes and everything else to get covered in it. For the boats we sail, annual soaking in linseed oil will suffice, and leave a lot less mess on your sails.. Cheers Martin |
rigging wire
On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:45:55 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote: On Feb 9, 10:35 pm, Bruce wrote: On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 23:46:11 GMT, (Richard Casady) wrote: How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy power poles with. Casady Basically using galvanized wire rope just takes a LOT more maintenance, and a LOT more time to build. If you are doing your own work then perhaps it is more economical, but if you are paying others the it is doubtful The first problem comes when you attempt to locate proper heavy duty thimbles for the eyes. Damned hard to find. Next comes splicing the eyes in the cables. Again, if you can do it yourself and have the tools then go for it but if you are paying rigger's rates then get your wallet ready. Now you have the cables cut, spliced around proper heavy duty thimbles. Next step is to worm, parcel and serve all splices and usually the lower cables up 10 - 15 feet above the deck. Once that is done you need to mix up some slushing and paint the cables, working it well into the wrappings. Now! At last, you can rig the boat. But remember that annually you will need to inspect, replace worn wrappings and re-slush all the cables and slushing is a mixture of tar, oil, Japan dryer and various other arcane substances. (think roofing tar) so don't even begin to think about slushing down the rigging while in a marina slip as you will sprinkle not only your deck but your neighbor's decks with sticky, black, tarry gunk. Now, having said all that you might be interested that properly maintained galvanized rigging will out last stainless. Cheers, Bruce Bruce where the hell do you get that idea? spend a couple pennies more and get the better galv. you just described what i do to my standing rigging and mine is all manella and hemp. yes with proper care galv will out last SS but the level of care is not serving the bloody thing. you soak the cable warm for a bit till the grave penetrates the core and then gravy the outside about twice a year. If you want galvanize to last 15 - 20 - 30 years, or longer, then you do it the old fashioned way I described. Otherwise you will be changing the stuff every ten years or so. Hell, I've seen boats rigged with telephone pole cables and cable clips. It works but you get to replace the rigging pretty often. If your standing rigging is all hemp and manila how are you making the terminations? Spliced eyes or served? Cheers, Bruce |
rigging wire
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 11:53:06 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote: Anyway stainless steel was only invented around WW1 time One of the very first applications was tubes for a Naval gun. Today you can get any number of different guns made entirely from the stuff. [ give or take the handles, traditionally wood.] Casady |
rigging wire
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:35:15 +0700, Bruce
wrote: The first problem comes when you attempt to locate proper heavy duty thimbles for the eyes. Damned hard to find. Next comes splicing the eyes in the cables. Again, if you can do it yourself and have the tools then go for it but if you are paying rigger's rates then get your wallet ready. Don't they have fittings that avoid the eyesplice, for stainless, but not for galvanized? That would do it even if stainless is six times as costly. I don't know about those compression sleeves. I remember in the fifties when Lands End sold nothing but sailboat stuff. They had sleeves and a tool that looked like a boltcutter. You can get 3/8 galv. for less than a buck a foot, breaking strength 14 000 lbs. My original reference was to anchor rode, and you can bet the ranch it wasn't stainless. You can brush grease over a wire filled winch drum and not get it on the rest of the boat. People who aren't useing it say it rusts. How come the zinc does not afford anodic protection to the steel. I drive by the neighors steel roof that has a third of the zinc gone, and no rust. No salt of course. My dad built the Iowa schooner [only been the one] and used galvanized. Whatever the local hardware store had. Casady Casady |
rigging wire
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:53:24 +0700, Bruce
wrote: If your standing rigging is all hemp and manila how are you making the terminations? Spliced eyes or served? Perhaps deadeyes at the bottom end, so maybe both? My dad could do all the splices. He made a rope ladder, all rope, no wood steps, and not anchored at the bottom. Only a kid trying to get to the tree platform would put up with it. To digress, the mountain climbers have short rope ladders with four inch aluminum steps. Why not a long one and haul it up with a halyard. I guess a bosuns chair is far better, unless you are alone. I believe ladder steps are far cheaper than mast steps. Not marine. I am a coward, and don't want to climb ladders without a harness clipped to a halyard, with someone tending the other end. Casady |
rigging wire
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:35:15 +0700, Bruce wrote: The first problem comes when you attempt to locate proper heavy duty thimbles for the eyes. Damned hard to find. Next comes splicing the eyes in the cables. Again, if you can do it yourself and have the tools then go for it but if you are paying rigger's rates then get your wallet ready. Don't they have fittings that avoid the eyesplice, for stainless, but not for galvanized? That would do it even if stainless is six times as costly. I don't know about those compression sleeves. I remember in the fifties when Lands End sold nothing but sailboat stuff. They had sleeves and a tool that looked like a boltcutter. Yes, you can get compression fittings for galvanised wire as well as stainless. I have the gear to do my own splices by the Talurit system, which makes a very neat job with a 20 ton hydraulic press. The only difference is that you use aluminium ferrules for galvd. and copper ones for stainless. You can use these copper ferrules also for 1 x 19 wire if you don't want to go for swaging. In that case you use the next larger ferrule because 1 x 19 is much more resistant to compression than stranded. I have no experience of the systems worked by a sort of bolt cutter but would not be certain that the average person could produce enough force to compress a copper ferrule. I am about to fit new steering wires to my boat if it ever stops snowing. The old ones are terminated with Nico-press fittings but I have made Talurit splices on the new ones. |
rigging wire
On Feb 10, 7:53 am, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:45:55 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: On Feb 9, 10:35 pm, Bruce wrote: On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 23:46:11 GMT, (Richard Casady) wrote: How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy power poles with. Casady Basically using galvanized wire rope just takes a LOT more maintenance, and a LOT more time to build. If you are doing your own work then perhaps it is more economical, but if you are paying others the it is doubtful The first problem comes when you attempt to locate proper heavy duty thimbles for the eyes. Damned hard to find. Next comes splicing the eyes in the cables. Again, if you can do it yourself and have the tools then go for it but if you are paying rigger's rates then get your wallet ready. Now you have the cables cut, spliced around proper heavy duty thimbles. Next step is to worm, parcel and serve all splices and usually the lower cables up 10 - 15 feet above the deck. Once that is done you need to mix up some slushing and paint the cables, working it well into the wrappings. Now! At last, you can rig the boat. But remember that annually you will need to inspect, replace worn wrappings and re-slush all the cables and slushing is a mixture of tar, oil, Japan dryer and various other arcane substances. (think roofing tar) so don't even begin to think about slushing down the rigging while in a marina slip as you will sprinkle not only your deck but your neighbor's decks with sticky, black, tarry gunk. Now, having said all that you might be interested that properly maintained galvanized rigging will out last stainless. Cheers, Bruce Bruce where the hell do you get that idea? spend a couple pennies more and get the better galv. you just described what i do to my standing rigging and mine is all manella and hemp. yes with proper care galv will out last SS but the level of care is not serving the bloody thing. you soak the cable warm for a bit till the grave penetrates the core and then gravy the outside about twice a year. If you want galvanize to last 15 - 20 - 30 years, or longer, then you do it the old fashioned way I described. Otherwise you will be changing the stuff every ten years or so. Hell, I've seen boats rigged with telephone pole cables and cable clips. It works but you get to replace the rigging pretty often. If your standing rigging is all hemp and manila how are you making the terminations? Spliced eyes or served? Cheers, Bruce depends on where it is. on most they go to the upper dead eye and eye spliced the wormed puddinged out parceled and served then a leather is sewn in and well oiled. the lower dead eyes are strapped and the lanyard is wormed parceled and served as well. each bolt that has a line to it has a thimble and a spliced eye treated the same . this is how my cargo boom mast and stops are set up |
rigging wire
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:03:10 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote: On Feb 10, 7:53 am, Bruce wrote: On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:45:55 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: On Feb 9, 10:35 pm, Bruce wrote: On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 23:46:11 GMT, (Richard Casady) wrote: How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy power poles with. Casady Basically using galvanized wire rope just takes a LOT more maintenance, and a LOT more time to build. If you are doing your own work then perhaps it is more economical, but if you are paying others the it is doubtful The first problem comes when you attempt to locate proper heavy duty thimbles for the eyes. Damned hard to find. Next comes splicing the eyes in the cables. Again, if you can do it yourself and have the tools then go for it but if you are paying rigger's rates then get your wallet ready. Now you have the cables cut, spliced around proper heavy duty thimbles. Next step is to worm, parcel and serve all splices and usually the lower cables up 10 - 15 feet above the deck. Once that is done you need to mix up some slushing and paint the cables, working it well into the wrappings. Now! At last, you can rig the boat. But remember that annually you will need to inspect, replace worn wrappings and re-slush all the cables and slushing is a mixture of tar, oil, Japan dryer and various other arcane substances. (think roofing tar) so don't even begin to think about slushing down the rigging while in a marina slip as you will sprinkle not only your deck but your neighbor's decks with sticky, black, tarry gunk. Now, having said all that you might be interested that properly maintained galvanized rigging will out last stainless. Cheers, Bruce Bruce where the hell do you get that idea? spend a couple pennies more and get the better galv. you just described what i do to my standing rigging and mine is all manella and hemp. yes with proper care galv will out last SS but the level of care is not serving the bloody thing. you soak the cable warm for a bit till the grave penetrates the core and then gravy the outside about twice a year. If you want galvanize to last 15 - 20 - 30 years, or longer, then you do it the old fashioned way I described. Otherwise you will be changing the stuff every ten years or so. Hell, I've seen boats rigged with telephone pole cables and cable clips. It works but you get to replace the rigging pretty often. If your standing rigging is all hemp and manila how are you making the terminations? Spliced eyes or served? Cheers, Bruce depends on where it is. on most they go to the upper dead eye and eye spliced the wormed puddinged out parceled and served then a leather is sewn in and well oiled. the lower dead eyes are strapped and the lanyard is wormed parceled and served as well. each bolt that has a line to it has a thimble and a spliced eye treated the same . this is how my cargo boom mast and stops are set up Which is partially what I was talking about. How much per shroud/stay for a rigger to do all this splicing - serving - parceling -etc plus the annual inspection and re-slushing? As apposed to cutting a length of stainless and either swedging a terminal on the ends, or screwing on a sta-lock fitting. Inspection is a yearly look at the terminals with a magnifying glass. Just as the old cotton sails, the initial motivation is to decrease maintenance. Cheers, Bruce |
rigging wire
Edgar wrote:
Properly cared for galvanized will out last steel, take an old boat restoration class or two, ignore Wilbur/Neal, he knows nothing about boats. Yes, it is Ok in any application where you can grease it. But you can't grease your rigging unless you want your sails, ropes and everything else to get covered in it. You would feel a lot better if you used a Mil Spec style corrosion inhibitor. These set to a waxy finish within 24 hours. Even a BoeShield T-6 (not sure about that number) aerosol cannister will do a serviceable job. It's this style of inhibitor that coats the galvanized aileron control cables in the 737 you flew in recently..... Brian W |
rigging wire
On Feb 10, 4:39 pm, Bruce wrote:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:03:10 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: On Feb 10, 7:53 am, Bruce wrote: On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:45:55 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll wrote: On Feb 9, 10:35 pm, Bruce wrote: On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 23:46:11 GMT, (Richard Casady) wrote: How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy power poles with. Casady Basically using galvanized wire rope just takes a LOT more maintenance, and a LOT more time to build. If you are doing your own work then perhaps it is more economical, but if you are paying others the it is doubtful The first problem comes when you attempt to locate proper heavy duty thimbles for the eyes. Damned hard to find. Next comes splicing the eyes in the cables. Again, if you can do it yourself and have the tools then go for it but if you are paying rigger's rates then get your wallet ready. Now you have the cables cut, spliced around proper heavy duty thimbles. Next step is to worm, parcel and serve all splices and usually the lower cables up 10 - 15 feet above the deck. Once that is done you need to mix up some slushing and paint the cables, working it well into the wrappings. Now! At last, you can rig the boat. But remember that annually you will need to inspect, replace worn wrappings and re-slush all the cables and slushing is a mixture of tar, oil, Japan dryer and various other arcane substances. (think roofing tar) so don't even begin to think about slushing down the rigging while in a marina slip as you will sprinkle not only your deck but your neighbor's decks with sticky, black, tarry gunk. Now, having said all that you might be interested that properly maintained galvanized rigging will out last stainless. Cheers, Bruce Bruce where the hell do you get that idea? spend a couple pennies more and get the better galv. you just described what i do to my standing rigging and mine is all manella and hemp. yes with proper care galv will out last SS but the level of care is not serving the bloody thing. you soak the cable warm for a bit till the grave penetrates the core and then gravy the outside about twice a year. If you want galvanize to last 15 - 20 - 30 years, or longer, then you do it the old fashioned way I described. Otherwise you will be changing the stuff every ten years or so. Hell, I've seen boats rigged with telephone pole cables and cable clips. It works but you get to replace the rigging pretty often. If your standing rigging is all hemp and manila how are you making the terminations? Spliced eyes or served? Cheers, Bruce depends on where it is. on most they go to the upper dead eye and eye spliced the wormed puddinged out parceled and served then a leather is sewn in and well oiled. the lower dead eyes are strapped and the lanyard is wormed parceled and served as well. each bolt that has a line to it has a thimble and a spliced eye treated the same . this is how my cargo boom mast and stops are set up Which is partially what I was talking about. How much per shroud/stay for a rigger to do all this splicing - serving - parceling -etc plus the annual inspection and re-slushing? As apposed to cutting a length of stainless and either swedging a terminal on the ends, or screwing on a sta-lock fitting. Inspection is a yearly look at the terminals with a magnifying glass. Just as the old cotton sails, the initial motivation is to decrease maintenance. Cheers, Bruce once the rigging is up it hardly takes much time. I understand the Maintainer time issue, I dont tend to agree with it but i do understand. However i have yet to see anyone running Galve that spends much time on the rigging. certs not more than a day a year. IMO folks should take a day a year and run through the rigging in any case. Ahh well I'll keep mine no matter its quiet and easy to work. I am a lazy old troll. |
rigging wire
Edgar wrote:
I have no experience of the systems worked by a sort of bolt cutter but would not be certain that the average person could produce enough force to compress a copper ferrule. I am about to fit new steering wires to my boat if it ever stops snowing. The old ones are terminated with Nico-press fittings but I have made Talurit splices on the new ones. The Nicopress sleeves used to terminate galvanized aircraft control cables are made of copper, and the aircraft supply companies suggest zinc coated copper sleeves for stainless wire cable. Aluminum sleeves are often stocked in hardware stores - they do well with galvanized cable in the smaller diameters to 3/16 inch certainly. A sleeve set by a reworked bolt cutter needs a little care, because as you can easily imagine, it is quite possible to squeeze the diameter over the two cables far too skinny with this tool. That's what a gage is for. Grinding a bolt cutter's blades into two semicircles of the appropriate size works well. A sleeve (or ferrule) is squeezed three times, but NEVER at different angles, or at right angles to and over an existing squeeze. That about guarantees a slip, in a joint which will otherwise hold up over 90% of the rated breaking strain of the cable, often over 100%. Brian W |
rigging wire
Richard Casady wrote:
How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy power poles with. Casady OK, while we are at it lets clarify what we are talking about when we say "Galvanized Wire." Most (all?) of it is 7-strand. It comes in a variety of dimensions and grades. It is important to understand that not all "galvanized" wire is the same. Just look at 1/4" for example: Common = 1,900 lbs Siemens Martin = 3, 150 lbs HS = 4,750 lbs EHS = 6,650 lbs It also comes with three levels of galvanizing: Class A: Minimum amount of zinc coating. Class B: Twice the amount of zinc coating as “A.” Class C: Three times the amount of zinc coating as “A.” Then there are various fittings. The "bullets" form Preformed Line Products would seem to me to make good connectors. I copied this from http://www.anixter.it/AXECOM/AXEDocLib.nsf/(UnID)/8DBC60E3F238E8CF80256F2500690530/$file/WCTHContentsInstallation.pdf Size Grade Wt/1,000 ft Breaking Strength 3?16 Common 73 1,150 3?16 Utility 2.2M 73 2,400 1?4 Common 121 1,900 1?4 Siemens Martin 121 3,150 1?4 High Strength 121 4,750 1?4 Ex. High Strength 121 6,650 5?16 Common 205 3,200 5?16 Siemens Martin 205 5,350 5?16 Utilities Grade 6M 225 6,000 5?16 High Strength 205 8,000 5?16 Ex. High Strength 205 11,200 3?8 Common 273 4,250 3?8 Siemens Martin 273 6,950 3?8 Utility 10M 273 11,500 3?8 High Strength 273 10,800 3?8 Ex. High Strength 273 15,400 7?16 Siemens Martin 399 9,350 7?16 High Strength 399 14,500 7?16 Utility 16M 399 18,000 1?2 Siemens Martin 517 12,100 1?2 High Strength 517 18,800 1?2 Utility 25M 517 25,000 |
rigging wire
Then there is 30% EHS Copper-Clad Steel, that might but the best bet of
all??? 6,282 lbs hpeer wrote: Richard Casady wrote: How come stainless cable is more than six times as costly as galvanized, yet nobody uses the galvanized. Stainless the same size has about 80% of the breaking strength. Galvanized is what they guy power poles with. Casady OK, while we are at it lets clarify what we are talking about when we say "Galvanized Wire." Most (all?) of it is 7-strand. It comes in a variety of dimensions and grades. It is important to understand that not all "galvanized" wire is the same. Just look at 1/4" for example: Common = 1,900 lbs Siemens Martin = 3, 150 lbs HS = 4,750 lbs EHS = 6,650 lbs It also comes with three levels of galvanizing: Class A: Minimum amount of zinc coating. Class B: Twice the amount of zinc coating as “A.” Class C: Three times the amount of zinc coating as “A.” Then there are various fittings. The "bullets" form Preformed Line Products would seem to me to make good connectors. I copied this from http://www.anixter.it/AXECOM/AXEDocLib.nsf/(UnID)/8DBC60E3F238E8CF80256F2500690530/$file/WCTHContentsInstallation.pdf Size Grade Wt/1,000 ft Breaking Strength 3?16 Common 73 1,150 3?16 Utility 2.2M 73 2,400 1?4 Common 121 1,900 1?4 Siemens Martin 121 3,150 1?4 High Strength 121 4,750 1?4 Ex. High Strength 121 6,650 5?16 Common 205 3,200 5?16 Siemens Martin 205 5,350 5?16 Utilities Grade 6M 225 6,000 5?16 High Strength 205 8,000 5?16 Ex. High Strength 205 11,200 3?8 Common 273 4,250 3?8 Siemens Martin 273 6,950 3?8 Utility 10M 273 11,500 3?8 High Strength 273 10,800 3?8 Ex. High Strength 273 15,400 7?16 Siemens Martin 399 9,350 7?16 High Strength 399 14,500 7?16 Utility 16M 399 18,000 1?2 Siemens Martin 517 12,100 1?2 High Strength 517 18,800 1?2 Utility 25M 517 25,000 |
rigging wire
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 21:55:47 -0500, hpeer wrote:
OK, while we are at it lets clarify what we are talking about when we say "Galvanized Wire." Most (all?) of it is 7-strand. It comes in a variety of dimensions and grades. It is important to understand that not all "galvanized" wire is the same. I checked out a cable company website. They have wire rope, galv, and stainless. No seven strand,they had7x7 and 7x19, and maybe 19x7. Roebling the guy who built the Brooklyn bridge, invented cable with three sizes of wire, to have less wasted air space, and be rounder. They sell it today. Casady |
rigging wire
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 21:55:47 -0500, hpeer wrote: OK, while we are at it lets clarify what we are talking about when we say "Galvanized Wire." Most (all?) of it is 7-strand. It comes in a variety of dimensions and grades. It is important to understand that not all "galvanized" wire is the same. I checked out a cable company website. They have wire rope, galv, and stainless. No seven strand,they had7x7 and 7x19, and maybe 19x7. Roebling the guy who built the Brooklyn bridge, invented cable with three sizes of wire, to have less wasted air space, and be rounder. They sell it today. The first figure (7) is the number of strands. 7 strand wire is six strands wound round a seventh wire core. The second number is the number of individual wires in each strand. In 7 x 7 each individual strand is itself six wires wound round a seventh as core. Some galvanised wires are 6 x (number of wires). This construction is 6 strands wound round a hemp core. The higher the number of wires in a strand the more flexible the complete rope is So 7 x 7 would be a stiffish wire suited to standing rigging. Not so good for going round pulleys as the individual wires will be thicker and subject to fatigue.. Having said that however this wire construction is recommended by the makers of my steering gear which is why I am now having to replace the wires because the first strand or two have fatigued and are protruding where the wire goes round the pulleys at the bottom of the pedestal. However I do not know how many years thee wires have been in service. If using this wire to go round a pulley make sure the pulley is as large diameter as possible. 7 x 19 would be more flexible for running gear and because the individual strands are thinner this wire would corrode more rapidly. Never heard of 19 x 7. If it exists it must be for some special application, not for boats. Standing rigging these days is normally 1 x 19 SS wire. This is a single strand containing 19 wires and cannot be used where any flexibility is required |
rigging wire
Edgar wrote:
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 21:55:47 -0500, hpeer wrote: OK, while we are at it lets clarify what we are talking about when we say "Galvanized Wire." Most (all?) of it is 7-strand. It comes in a variety of dimensions and grades. It is important to understand that not all "galvanized" wire is the same. I checked out a cable company website. They have wire rope, galv, and stainless. No seven strand,they had7x7 and 7x19, and maybe 19x7. Roebling the guy who built the Brooklyn bridge, invented cable with three sizes of wire, to have less wasted air space, and be rounder. They sell it today. The first figure (7) is the number of strands. 7 strand wire is six strands wound round a seventh wire core. The second number is the number of individual wires in each strand. In 7 x 7 each individual strand is itself six wires wound round a seventh as core. Some galvanised wires are 6 x (number of wires). This construction is 6 strands wound round a hemp core. The higher the number of wires in a strand the more flexible the complete rope is So 7 x 7 would be a stiffish wire suited to standing rigging. Not so good for going round pulleys as the individual wires will be thicker and subject to fatigue.. Having said that however this wire construction is recommended by the makers of my steering gear which is why I am now having to replace the wires because the first strand or two have fatigued and are protruding where the wire goes round the pulleys at the bottom of the pedestal. However I do not know how many years thee wires have been in service. If using this wire to go round a pulley make sure the pulley is as large diameter as possible. 7 x 19 would be more flexible for running gear and because the individual strands are thinner this wire would corrode more rapidly. Never heard of 19 x 7. If it exists it must be for some special application, not for boats. Standing rigging these days is normally 1 x 19 SS wire. This is a single strand containing 19 wires and cannot be used where any flexibility is required The 7 strand (6 over 1 as you note) is what is commonly used as messenger or guy wire for "telephone" cable. It's what you will get if you cut down a telephone pole. |
rigging wire
On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:57:10 -0500, hpeer wrote:
Never heard of 19 x 7. If it exists it must be for some special application, not for boats. 19x7 is used for cranes as it lacks the tendency to twist when loaded.There is also 19x19 and 6x37 Casady |
rigging wire
Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:35:15 +0700, Bruce wrote: The first problem comes when you attempt to locate proper heavy duty thimbles for the eyes. Damned hard to find. Next comes splicing the eyes in the cables. Again, if you can do it yourself and have the tools then go for it but if you are paying rigger's rates then get your wallet ready. Don't they have fittings that avoid the eyesplice, for stainless, but not for galvanized? That would do it even if stainless is six times as costly. I don't know about those compression sleeves. I remember in the fifties when Lands End sold nothing but sailboat stuff. They had sleeves and a tool that looked like a boltcutter. Poured socket terminals were the 'gold standard' for wire rope terminals for the greater part of the last century. The end of the rope is splayed in a controlled fashion and spelter (usually zinc alloy) is poured in to the terminal to form a solid wedge retaining the rope. Used to be the Navy standard for all wire terminals used for safety critical lifting. Works for galvanized and bare steel wire but I believe its not so good for stainless as the spelter doesn't wet the strands properly. Check out chapter 10 of: http://www.fastlift.co.za/pdf/CASAR%20-%20Wire%20rope%20end%20connections.pdf for instructions. It should be noted that unlike most other terminal systems, it does not de-rate the wire strength from 100% The tools and materials to do it are affordable and can be carried on board nearly any boat, the terminals are generally reusable and the galvanic compatibility is good, but you do need to be ashore or in a very sheltered location to work with molten spelter so some screw down compression fittings of any of the types suitable for galvanised wire would need to be stocked for any repairs under way. You can get 3/8 galv. for less than a buck a foot, breaking strength 14 000 lbs. My original reference was to anchor rode, and you can bet the ranch it wasn't stainless. You can brush grease over a wire filled winch drum and not get it on the rest of the boat. People who aren't useing it say it rusts. How come the zinc does not afford anodic protection to the steel. I drive by the neighors steel roof that has a third of the zinc gone, and no rust. No salt of course. My dad built the Iowa schooner [only been the one] and used galvanized. Whatever the local hardware store had. Casady Casady -- Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED) ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL: |
rigging wire
On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 09:39:58 +0000, IanM
wrote: Richard Casady wrote: On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:35:15 +0700, Bruce wrote: The first problem comes when you attempt to locate proper heavy duty thimbles for the eyes. Damned hard to find. Next comes splicing the eyes in the cables. Again, if you can do it yourself and have the tools then go for it but if you are paying rigger's rates then get your wallet ready. Don't they have fittings that avoid the eyesplice, for stainless, but not for galvanized? That would do it even if stainless is six times as costly. I don't know about those compression sleeves. I remember in the fifties when Lands End sold nothing but sailboat stuff. They had sleeves and a tool that looked like a boltcutter. No, I was referring specifically to thimbles used in eye splices as I assumed that if one were complaining about costs one wouldn't want to buy swedge fittings as a non-stainless swedge fitting any where that it gets salt water on it probably has a shorter life then a properly made and served eye splice. Poured socket terminals were the 'gold standard' for wire rope terminals for the greater part of the last century. The end of the rope is splayed in a controlled fashion and spelter (usually zinc alloy) is poured in to the terminal to form a solid wedge retaining the rope. Used to be the Navy standard for all wire terminals used for safety critical lifting. Works for galvanized and bare steel wire but I believe its not so good for stainless as the spelter doesn't wet the strands properly. Check out chapter 10 of: http://www.fastlift.co.za/pdf/CASAR%20-%20Wire%20rope%20end%20connections.pdf Called "spelter sockets". There is a boat builder in Phuket that has proper bronze fittings cast and uses them from time to time. They used to be common around cranes but have largely been replaced by wedge sockets as the poured sockets take a bit of skill to make. Or perhaps more accurately, a bit of attention paid to the proper technique. for instructions. It should be noted that unlike most other terminal systems, it does not de-rate the wire strength from 100% I think you'll find that sta-lock type of fitting will test stronger then the cable. One test was 107% of rated cable strength. The tools and materials to do it are affordable and can be carried on board nearly any boat, the terminals are generally reusable and the galvanic compatibility is good, but you do need to be ashore or in a very sheltered location to work with molten spelter so some screw down compression fittings of any of the types suitable for galvanised wire would need to be stocked for any repairs under way. The spelter is just zinc in most cases. You can get 3/8 galv. for less than a buck a foot, breaking strength 14 000 lbs. My original reference was to anchor rode, and you can bet the ranch it wasn't stainless. You can brush grease over a wire filled winch drum and not get it on the rest of the boat. People who aren't useing it say it rusts. How come the zinc does not afford anodic protection to the steel. I drive by the neighors steel roof that has a third of the zinc gone, and no rust. No salt of course. My dad built the Iowa schooner [only been the one] and used galvanized. Whatever the local hardware store had. Your neighbor's roof wasn't immersed in salt water very often either. I doubt very much if galvanized wire will make a satisfactory anchor rode as I can't see how you can wash all the salt out of the stands so it will be rusting quietly away while on the drum. Casady Cheers, Bruce |
rigging wire
One of my jobs in the navy was to poure the terminals for the CDP's
(cross deck pennants). tools are easy to get or fabricate, the whatch outs are. 1:Improper broom (the cone of wire you will be inserting into the terminal) 2:wire touching the sides of the terminal (creates shadows) 3: Any oil in the broom (makes spelter explode) 4:Dirt or loose stuff in the broom may cause inproper adherance of spelter and wire) 5:terminal not heated to temp (can make bond between spelter and terminal fail.) 6: to much Flux in terminal and broom (has some randome effects like blowback and none adhearance) the only tool you may have to look for is a dyno. not sure if you would need one for a sail boat because i dont think the wire is under all that much tension but you might. the pull out limit for CDP's is 80.000ths on 15 strands max. method is prep terminal (grit blast the internal surfaces and rinse with a fast evap non film forming cleaning solution) slip over wire. broom wire and clean well (same as above) lighty spray with flux slide terminal over broom adjust wires in terminal to remove shadows (did i mention no oil in the whole thing this includes skin oil so wear gloves and change them often) Wrap terminal base with plaster tape (do a really good job here or you will get burned boots) wrap a plug top at least 1/2" over the teminal wall (this is important somtimes you break a wire and it is a bit short you want all the wires to protrude beyond the terminal lip) start crucible and begin to melt the spelter for zink it is 900 or so degrees make sure it does not go over. heat terminal (heat crayons can be purchased at a welding supply for 900 degrees and you simply heat till the crayon runs) when all is to temp pour (keep the speed of pour consistant and have some one with a stick lightly tap the sides of the terminal so you remove all the bubbles) keep heat on the terminal for a moment (900 degrees for 3 and 1/2 min. this part will bring up anything you missed in the cleaning and give you some time to remove the bubbles) when the zink is set let it cool till you can handle it by hand. unwrap clean it with a wire wheel. cut the plug 1/8 inch from socket lip (if you cant cut this close give it a bit more room. a band saw works very well) now comes the fun part grind the plug smooth and slightly domed (the center of the dome should be 1/16th proud) inspect for adheasion. pull test the terminal and look for pullout. in 800 pours i had one fail the pull test. |
rigging wire
"Two meter troll" wrote in message ... One of my jobs in the navy was to poure the terminals for the CDP's (cross deck pennants). tools are easy to get or fabricate, the whatch outs are. 1:Improper broom (the cone of wire you will be inserting into the terminal) 2:wire touching the sides of the terminal (creates shadows) 3: Any oil in the broom (makes spelter explode) 4:Dirt or loose stuff in the broom may cause inproper adherance of spelter and wire) 5:terminal not heated to temp (can make bond between spelter and terminal fail.) 6: to much Flux in terminal and broom (has some randome effects like blowback and none adhearance) the only tool you may have to look for is a dyno. not sure if you would need one for a sail boat because i dont think the wire is under all that much tension but you might. the pull out limit for CDP's is 80.000ths on 15 strands max. method is prep terminal (grit blast the internal surfaces and rinse with a fast evap non film forming cleaning solution) slip over wire. broom wire and clean well (same as above) lighty spray with flux slide terminal over broom adjust wires in terminal to remove shadows (did i mention no oil in the whole thing this includes skin oil so wear gloves and change them often) Wrap terminal base with plaster tape (do a really good job here or you will get burned boots) wrap a plug top at least 1/2" over the teminal wall (this is important somtimes you break a wire and it is a bit short you want all the wires to protrude beyond the terminal lip) start crucible and begin to melt the spelter for zink it is 900 or so degrees make sure it does not go over. heat terminal (heat crayons can be purchased at a welding supply for 900 degrees and you simply heat till the crayon runs) when all is to temp pour (keep the speed of pour consistant and have some one with a stick lightly tap the sides of the terminal so you remove all the bubbles) keep heat on the terminal for a moment (900 degrees for 3 and 1/2 min. this part will bring up anything you missed in the cleaning and give you some time to remove the bubbles) when the zink is set let it cool till you can handle it by hand. unwrap clean it with a wire wheel. cut the plug 1/8 inch from socket lip (if you cant cut this close give it a bit more room. a band saw works very well) now comes the fun part grind the plug smooth and slightly domed (the center of the dome should be 1/16th proud) inspect for adheasion. pull test the terminal and look for pullout. in 800 pours i had one fail the pull test. That is very interesting and comprehensive but I would like you to expand a bit more on the 'broom wire' bit. I have never poured a terminal in the way you outline but have had to 'broom' a wire to fit into a Norseman or Staylok (can't remember which it was)terminal. The wire was fairly heavy SS and the individual strands were quite stiff. I knew that it was important to get it right so it took me a very long time, one wire at a time, until I was satisfied. Is there a simpler and quicker way to do it? How did you do it? |
rigging wire
Your neighbor's roof wasn't immersed in salt water very often either. I doubt very much if galvanized wire will make a *satisfactory anchor rode as I can't see how you can wash all the salt out *of the stands so it will be rusting quietly away while on the drum. Casady Cheers, It makes a fine rode. jiminy what do folks think work boats carry? we dont have ss anchor's or rodes. the cost is prohibitive and the life span is not as good. SS does not like to work. the only advantage SS has over good galv is that it is not supposed to rust Ever (if you get the wrong formulation it sure will). that still does not off set the cost diffrance. SS is mostly Cash flash there are other things that work as well or better and are cheaper to boot. |
rigging wire
Two meter troll wrote:
.... It makes a fine rode. jiminy what do folks think work boats carry? we don't have ss anchors or rodes. the cost is prohibitive and the life span is not as good. SS does not like to work. the only advantage SS has over good galv is that it is not supposed to rust Ever (if you get the wrong formulation it sure will). that still does not off set the cost difference. A useful little test for the stainless believers goes like this. Buy a bright shiny stainless bowl - like a surgical bowl or whatever. Put a cup of salt water in it, and leave it outside. Make sure it doesn't dry up. Check how long it takes to get a pinhole in the bowl. Try again with tap water - you should get the same result..... Brian W |
rigging wire
On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 19:24:22 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote: "Two meter troll" wrote in message ... One of my jobs in the navy was to poure the terminals for the CDP's (cross deck pennants). tools are easy to get or fabricate, the whatch outs are. 1:Improper broom (the cone of wire you will be inserting into the terminal) 2:wire touching the sides of the terminal (creates shadows) 3: Any oil in the broom (makes spelter explode) 4:Dirt or loose stuff in the broom may cause inproper adherance of spelter and wire) 5:terminal not heated to temp (can make bond between spelter and terminal fail.) 6: to much Flux in terminal and broom (has some randome effects like blowback and none adhearance) the only tool you may have to look for is a dyno. not sure if you would need one for a sail boat because i dont think the wire is under all that much tension but you might. the pull out limit for CDP's is 80.000ths on 15 strands max. method is prep terminal (grit blast the internal surfaces and rinse with a fast evap non film forming cleaning solution) slip over wire. broom wire and clean well (same as above) lighty spray with flux slide terminal over broom adjust wires in terminal to remove shadows (did i mention no oil in the whole thing this includes skin oil so wear gloves and change them often) Wrap terminal base with plaster tape (do a really good job here or you will get burned boots) wrap a plug top at least 1/2" over the teminal wall (this is important somtimes you break a wire and it is a bit short you want all the wires to protrude beyond the terminal lip) start crucible and begin to melt the spelter for zink it is 900 or so degrees make sure it does not go over. heat terminal (heat crayons can be purchased at a welding supply for 900 degrees and you simply heat till the crayon runs) when all is to temp pour (keep the speed of pour consistant and have some one with a stick lightly tap the sides of the terminal so you remove all the bubbles) keep heat on the terminal for a moment (900 degrees for 3 and 1/2 min. this part will bring up anything you missed in the cleaning and give you some time to remove the bubbles) when the zink is set let it cool till you can handle it by hand. unwrap clean it with a wire wheel. cut the plug 1/8 inch from socket lip (if you cant cut this close give it a bit more room. a band saw works very well) now comes the fun part grind the plug smooth and slightly domed (the center of the dome should be 1/16th proud) inspect for adheasion. pull test the terminal and look for pullout. in 800 pours i had one fail the pull test. That is very interesting and comprehensive but I would like you to expand a bit more on the 'broom wire' bit. I have never poured a terminal in the way you outline but have had to 'broom' a wire to fit into a Norseman or Staylok (can't remember which it was)terminal. The wire was fairly heavy SS and the individual strands were quite stiff. I knew that it was important to get it right so it took me a very long time, one wire at a time, until I was satisfied. Is there a simpler and quicker way to do it? How did you do it? I think that if you were "brooming" cable for the Stalok or Norseman fittings you were doing something wrong. At least if you were brooming them the same as you do with spelter sockets. With the spelter sockets you broom out the wire to as close as separate wires as possible while both the stalok and norseman instructions tell you to separate the cable into the separate twisted strands. the center strand fits in the center of the wedge and the outer strands lay down the outside. It is really a trivial task. Cheers, Bruce |
rigging wire
On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 10:26:54 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote: Your neighbor's roof wasn't immersed in salt water very often either. I doubt very much if galvanized wire will make a *satisfactory anchor rode as I can't see how you can wash all the salt out *of the stands so it will be rusting quietly away while on the drum. Casady Cheers, It makes a fine rode. jiminy what do folks think work boats carry? we dont have ss anchor's or rodes. the cost is prohibitive and the life span is not as good. SS does not like to work. the only advantage SS has over good galv is that it is not supposed to rust Ever (if you get the wrong formulation it sure will). that still does not off set the cost diffrance. SS is mostly Cash flash there are other things that work as well or better and are cheaper to boot. I must say that I have never seen a work boat with a cable anchor rode so I can't comment other then the "well, it seems likely" argument that is so frequently totally incorrect. I have seen mooring lines, normally used on larger ships, that are galvanized but aren't intended to be dunked in the ocean on a daily basis. Cheers, Bruce |
rigging wire
"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message ... Two meter troll wrote: ... It makes a fine rode. jiminy what do folks think work boats carry? we don't have ss anchors or rodes. the cost is prohibitive and the life span is not as good. SS does not like to work. the only advantage SS has over good galv is that it is not supposed to rust Ever (if you get the wrong formulation it sure will). that still does not off set the cost difference. A useful little test for the stainless believers goes like this. Buy a bright shiny stainless bowl - like a surgical bowl or whatever. Put a cup of salt water in it, and leave it outside. Make sure it doesn't dry up. Check how long it takes to get a pinhole in the bowl. Try again with tap water - you should get the same result..... Brian W There are various grades of 'stainless' steel. The lower grades will be attracted by a magnet and will be likely to behave as you describe. The better grades are totally non-magnetic and are the only kind that should be on boat fittings. Take a small powerful magnet when you go to buy marine fittings as there is a lot of low-grade stuff on offer even if it is being sold for marine use. |
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