rigging wire
 

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:57:10 -0500, hpeer wrote:

Never heard of 19 x 7. If it exists it must be for some special application,
not for boats.

19x7 is used for cranes as it lacks the tendency to twist when
loaded.There is also 19x19 and 6x37

Casady

rigging wire
 

Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:35:15 +0700, Bruce
wrote:

The first problem comes when you attempt to locate proper heavy duty
thimbles for the eyes. Damned hard to find. Next comes splicing the
eyes in the cables. Again, if you can do it yourself and have the
tools then go for it but if you are paying rigger's rates then get
your wallet ready.

Don't they have fittings that avoid the eyesplice, for stainless, but
not for galvanized? That would do it even if stainless is six times as
costly. I don't know about those compression sleeves. I remember in
the fifties when Lands End sold nothing but sailboat stuff. They had
sleeves and a tool that looked like a boltcutter.

Poured socket terminals were the 'gold standard' for wire rope terminals
for the greater part of the last century. The end of the rope is
splayed in a controlled fashion and spelter (usually zinc alloy) is
poured in to the terminal to form a solid wedge retaining the rope.
Used to be the Navy standard for all wire terminals used for safety
critical lifting. Works for galvanized and bare steel wire but I believe
its not so good for stainless as the spelter doesn't wet the strands
properly.
Check out chapter 10 of:
http://www.fastlift.co.za/pdf/CASAR%20-%20Wire%20rope%20end%20connections.pdf

for instructions. It should be noted that unlike most other terminal
systems, it does not de-rate the wire strength from 100%

The tools and materials to do it are affordable and can be carried on
board nearly any boat, the terminals are generally reusable and the
galvanic compatibility is good, but you do need to be ashore or in a
very sheltered location to work with molten spelter so some screw down
compression fittings of any of the types suitable for galvanised wire
would need to be stocked for any repairs under way.

You can get 3/8 galv. for less than a buck a foot, breaking strength
14 000 lbs. My original reference was to anchor rode, and you can bet
the ranch it wasn't stainless. You can brush grease over a wire filled
winch drum and not get it on the rest of the boat.

People who aren't useing it say it rusts. How come the zinc does not
afford anodic protection to the steel. I drive by the neighors steel
roof that has a third of the zinc gone, and no rust. No salt of
course. My dad built the Iowa schooner [only been the one] and used
galvanized. Whatever the local hardware store had.

Casady

Casady


--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
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rigging wire
 

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 09:39:58 +0000, IanM
wrote:

Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:35:15 +0700, Bruce
wrote:

The first problem comes when you attempt to locate proper heavy duty
thimbles for the eyes. Damned hard to find. Next comes splicing the
eyes in the cables. Again, if you can do it yourself and have the
tools then go for it but if you are paying rigger's rates then get
your wallet ready.

Don't they have fittings that avoid the eyesplice, for stainless, but
not for galvanized? That would do it even if stainless is six times as
costly. I don't know about those compression sleeves. I remember in
the fifties when Lands End sold nothing but sailboat stuff. They had
sleeves and a tool that looked like a boltcutter.

No, I was referring specifically to thimbles used in eye splices as I
assumed that if one were complaining about costs one wouldn't want to
buy swedge fittings as a non-stainless swedge fitting any where that
it gets salt water on it probably has a shorter life then a properly
made and served eye splice.


Poured socket terminals were the 'gold standard' for wire rope terminals
for the greater part of the last century. The end of the rope is
splayed in a controlled fashion and spelter (usually zinc alloy) is
poured in to the terminal to form a solid wedge retaining the rope.
Used to be the Navy standard for all wire terminals used for safety
critical lifting. Works for galvanized and bare steel wire but I believe
its not so good for stainless as the spelter doesn't wet the strands
properly.
Check out chapter 10 of:
http://www.fastlift.co.za/pdf/CASAR%20-%20Wire%20rope%20end%20connections.pdf

Called "spelter sockets". There is a boat builder in Phuket that has
proper bronze fittings cast and uses them from time to time. They used
to be common around cranes but have largely been replaced by wedge
sockets as the poured sockets take a bit of skill to make. Or perhaps
more accurately, a bit of attention paid to the proper technique.

for instructions. It should be noted that unlike most other terminal
systems, it does not de-rate the wire strength from 100%


I think you'll find that sta-lock type of fitting will test stronger
then the cable. One test was 107% of rated cable strength.

The tools and materials to do it are affordable and can be carried on
board nearly any boat, the terminals are generally reusable and the
galvanic compatibility is good, but you do need to be ashore or in a
very sheltered location to work with molten spelter so some screw down
compression fittings of any of the types suitable for galvanised wire
would need to be stocked for any repairs under way.

The spelter is just zinc in most cases.

You can get 3/8 galv. for less than a buck a foot, breaking strength
14 000 lbs. My original reference was to anchor rode, and you can bet
the ranch it wasn't stainless. You can brush grease over a wire filled
winch drum and not get it on the rest of the boat.

People who aren't useing it say it rusts. How come the zinc does not
afford anodic protection to the steel. I drive by the neighors steel
roof that has a third of the zinc gone, and no rust. No salt of
course. My dad built the Iowa schooner [only been the one] and used
galvanized. Whatever the local hardware store had.

Your neighbor's roof wasn't immersed in salt water very often either.
I doubt very much if galvanized wire will make a satisfactory anchor
rode as I can't see how you can wash all the salt out of the stands
so it will be rusting quietly away while on the drum.


Casady
Cheers,

Bruce

rigging wire
 

One of my jobs in the navy was to poure the terminals for the CDP's
(cross deck pennants).

tools are easy to get or fabricate, the whatch outs are.
1:Improper broom (the cone of wire you will be inserting into the
terminal)
2:wire touching the sides of the terminal (creates shadows)

3: Any oil in the broom (makes spelter explode)
4:Dirt or loose stuff in the broom may cause inproper adherance of
spelter and wire)

5:terminal not heated to temp (can make bond between spelter and
terminal fail.)
6: to much Flux in terminal and broom (has some randome effects like
blowback and none adhearance)

the only tool you may have to look for is a dyno. not sure if you
would need one for a sail boat because i dont think the wire is under
all that much tension but you might. the pull out limit for CDP's is
80.000ths on 15 strands max.

method is prep terminal (grit blast the internal surfaces and rinse
with a fast evap non film forming cleaning solution)
slip over wire.
broom wire and clean well (same as above)
lighty spray with flux
slide terminal over broom
adjust wires in terminal to remove shadows
(did i mention no oil in the whole thing this includes skin oil so
wear gloves and change them often)
Wrap terminal base with plaster tape (do a really good job here or
you will get burned boots)
wrap a plug top at least 1/2" over the teminal wall (this is important
somtimes you break a wire and it is a bit short you want all the wires
to protrude beyond the terminal lip)
start crucible and begin to melt the spelter for zink it is 900 or so
degrees make sure it does not go over.
heat terminal (heat crayons can be purchased at a welding supply for
900 degrees and you simply heat till the crayon runs)
when all is to temp pour (keep the speed of pour consistant and have
some one with a stick lightly tap the sides of the terminal so you
remove all the bubbles)
keep heat on the terminal for a moment (900 degrees for 3 and 1/2 min.
this part will bring up anything you missed in the cleaning and give
you some time to remove the bubbles)

when the zink is set let it cool till you can handle it by hand.
unwrap clean it with a wire wheel. cut the plug 1/8 inch from socket
lip (if you cant cut this close give it a bit more room. a band saw
works very well)
now comes the fun part grind the plug smooth and slightly domed (the
center of the dome should be 1/16th proud)
inspect for adheasion. pull test the terminal and look for pullout.

in 800 pours i had one fail the pull test.

rigging wire
 

"Two meter troll" wrote in message
...
One of my jobs in the navy was to poure the terminals for the CDP's
(cross deck pennants).

tools are easy to get or fabricate, the whatch outs are.
1:Improper broom (the cone of wire you will be inserting into the
terminal)
2:wire touching the sides of the terminal (creates shadows)

3: Any oil in the broom (makes spelter explode)
4:Dirt or loose stuff in the broom may cause inproper adherance of
spelter and wire)

5:terminal not heated to temp (can make bond between spelter and
terminal fail.)
6: to much Flux in terminal and broom (has some randome effects like
blowback and none adhearance)

the only tool you may have to look for is a dyno. not sure if you
would need one for a sail boat because i dont think the wire is under
all that much tension but you might. the pull out limit for CDP's is
80.000ths on 15 strands max.

method is prep terminal (grit blast the internal surfaces and rinse
with a fast evap non film forming cleaning solution)
slip over wire.
broom wire and clean well (same as above)
lighty spray with flux
slide terminal over broom
adjust wires in terminal to remove shadows
(did i mention no oil in the whole thing this includes skin oil so
wear gloves and change them often)
Wrap terminal base with plaster tape (do a really good job here or
you will get burned boots)
wrap a plug top at least 1/2" over the teminal wall (this is important
somtimes you break a wire and it is a bit short you want all the wires
to protrude beyond the terminal lip)
start crucible and begin to melt the spelter for zink it is 900 or so
degrees make sure it does not go over.
heat terminal (heat crayons can be purchased at a welding supply for
900 degrees and you simply heat till the crayon runs)
when all is to temp pour (keep the speed of pour consistant and have
some one with a stick lightly tap the sides of the terminal so you
remove all the bubbles)
keep heat on the terminal for a moment (900 degrees for 3 and 1/2 min.
this part will bring up anything you missed in the cleaning and give
you some time to remove the bubbles)

when the zink is set let it cool till you can handle it by hand.
unwrap clean it with a wire wheel. cut the plug 1/8 inch from socket
lip (if you cant cut this close give it a bit more room. a band saw
works very well)
now comes the fun part grind the plug smooth and slightly domed (the
center of the dome should be 1/16th proud)
inspect for adheasion. pull test the terminal and look for pullout.

in 800 pours i had one fail the pull test.

That is very interesting and comprehensive but I would like you to expand a
bit more on the 'broom wire' bit.
I have never poured a terminal in the way you outline but have had to
'broom' a wire to fit into a Norseman or Staylok (can't remember which it
was)terminal.
The wire was fairly heavy SS and the individual strands were quite stiff. I
knew that it was important to get it right so it took me a very long time,
one wire at a time, until I was satisfied.
Is there a simpler and quicker way to do it? How did you do it?

rigging wire
 

Your neighbor's roof wasn't immersed in salt water very often either.
I doubt very much if galvanized wire will make a *satisfactory anchor
rode as I can't see how you can wash all the salt out *of the stands
so it will be rusting quietly away while on the drum.



Casady

Cheers,

It makes a fine rode.
jiminy what do folks think work boats carry? we dont have ss anchor's
or rodes. the cost is prohibitive and the life span is not as good. SS
does not like to work. the only advantage SS has over good galv is
that it is not supposed to rust Ever (if you get the wrong formulation
it sure will). that still does not off set the cost diffrance.

SS is mostly Cash flash there are other things that work as well or
better and are cheaper to boot.

rigging wire
 

Two meter troll wrote:
....
It makes a fine rode.
jiminy what do folks think work boats carry? we don't have ss anchors
or rodes. the cost is prohibitive and the life span is not as good. SS
does not like to work. the only advantage SS has over good galv is
that it is not supposed to rust Ever (if you get the wrong formulation
it sure will). that still does not off set the cost difference.


A useful little test for the stainless believers goes like this.

Buy a bright shiny stainless bowl - like a surgical bowl or whatever.

Put a cup of salt water in it, and leave it outside.
Make sure it doesn't dry up. Check how long it takes to get a
pinhole in the bowl. Try again with tap water - you should get the
same result.....

Brian W

rigging wire
 

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 19:24:22 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:


"Two meter troll" wrote in message
...
One of my jobs in the navy was to poure the terminals for the CDP's
(cross deck pennants).

tools are easy to get or fabricate, the whatch outs are.
1:Improper broom (the cone of wire you will be inserting into the
terminal)
2:wire touching the sides of the terminal (creates shadows)

3: Any oil in the broom (makes spelter explode)
4:Dirt or loose stuff in the broom may cause inproper adherance of
spelter and wire)

5:terminal not heated to temp (can make bond between spelter and
terminal fail.)
6: to much Flux in terminal and broom (has some randome effects like
blowback and none adhearance)

the only tool you may have to look for is a dyno. not sure if you
would need one for a sail boat because i dont think the wire is under
all that much tension but you might. the pull out limit for CDP's is
80.000ths on 15 strands max.

method is prep terminal (grit blast the internal surfaces and rinse
with a fast evap non film forming cleaning solution)
slip over wire.
broom wire and clean well (same as above)
lighty spray with flux
slide terminal over broom
adjust wires in terminal to remove shadows
(did i mention no oil in the whole thing this includes skin oil so
wear gloves and change them often)
Wrap terminal base with plaster tape (do a really good job here or
you will get burned boots)
wrap a plug top at least 1/2" over the teminal wall (this is important
somtimes you break a wire and it is a bit short you want all the wires
to protrude beyond the terminal lip)
start crucible and begin to melt the spelter for zink it is 900 or so
degrees make sure it does not go over.
heat terminal (heat crayons can be purchased at a welding supply for
900 degrees and you simply heat till the crayon runs)
when all is to temp pour (keep the speed of pour consistant and have
some one with a stick lightly tap the sides of the terminal so you
remove all the bubbles)
keep heat on the terminal for a moment (900 degrees for 3 and 1/2 min.
this part will bring up anything you missed in the cleaning and give
you some time to remove the bubbles)

when the zink is set let it cool till you can handle it by hand.
unwrap clean it with a wire wheel. cut the plug 1/8 inch from socket
lip (if you cant cut this close give it a bit more room. a band saw
works very well)
now comes the fun part grind the plug smooth and slightly domed (the
center of the dome should be 1/16th proud)
inspect for adheasion. pull test the terminal and look for pullout.

in 800 pours i had one fail the pull test.

That is very interesting and comprehensive but I would like you to expand a
bit more on the 'broom wire' bit.
I have never poured a terminal in the way you outline but have had to
'broom' a wire to fit into a Norseman or Staylok (can't remember which it
was)terminal.
The wire was fairly heavy SS and the individual strands were quite stiff. I
knew that it was important to get it right so it took me a very long time,
one wire at a time, until I was satisfied.
Is there a simpler and quicker way to do it? How did you do it?


I think that if you were "brooming" cable for the Stalok or Norseman
fittings you were doing something wrong. At least if you were brooming
them the same as you do with spelter sockets. With the spelter sockets
you broom out the wire to as close as separate wires as possible while
both the stalok and norseman instructions tell you to separate the
cable into the separate twisted strands. the center strand fits in the
center of the wedge and the outer strands lay down the outside. It is
really a trivial task.

Cheers,

Bruce

rigging wire
 

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 10:26:54 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote:


Your neighbor's roof wasn't immersed in salt water very often either.
I doubt very much if galvanized wire will make a *satisfactory anchor
rode as I can't see how you can wash all the salt out *of the stands
so it will be rusting quietly away while on the drum.



Casady

Cheers,

It makes a fine rode.
jiminy what do folks think work boats carry? we dont have ss anchor's
or rodes. the cost is prohibitive and the life span is not as good. SS
does not like to work. the only advantage SS has over good galv is
that it is not supposed to rust Ever (if you get the wrong formulation
it sure will). that still does not off set the cost diffrance.

SS is mostly Cash flash there are other things that work as well or
better and are cheaper to boot.


I must say that I have never seen a work boat with a cable anchor rode
so I can't comment other then the "well, it seems likely" argument
that is so frequently totally incorrect. I have seen mooring lines,
normally used on larger ships, that are galvanized but aren't intended
to be dunked in the ocean on a daily basis.

Cheers,

Bruce

rigging wire
 

"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message
...
Two meter troll wrote:
...
It makes a fine rode.
jiminy what do folks think work boats carry? we don't have ss anchors
or rodes. the cost is prohibitive and the life span is not as good. SS
does not like to work. the only advantage SS has over good galv is
that it is not supposed to rust Ever (if you get the wrong formulation
it sure will). that still does not off set the cost difference.


A useful little test for the stainless believers goes like this.

Buy a bright shiny stainless bowl - like a surgical bowl or whatever.

Put a cup of salt water in it, and leave it outside.
Make sure it doesn't dry up. Check how long it takes to get a pinhole
in the bowl. Try again with tap water - you should get the same
result.....

Brian W

There are various grades of 'stainless' steel. The lower grades will be
attracted by a magnet and will be likely to behave as you describe.
The better grades are totally non-magnetic and are the only kind that should
be on boat fittings.
Take a small powerful magnet when you go to buy marine fittings as there is
a lot of low-grade stuff on offer even if it is being sold for marine use.