DSK wrote:

Armond Perretta wrote:

Doug, unfortunately my experience contradicts your statement to some
extent.


I should have made it plain that I was quoting theory

... I have more than once come on deck offshore (let's say more than a
few hundred miles from any coast) to find myself all too close to
whales, containers, and on more than one occasion large commercial
vessels.
I think the original writer's concerns are well founded.


Yes agreed, except that all-around visibility is just as important as
visibility forward IMHO. And I would seriously discourage anybody from
letting their autopilot keep the watch on deck in any but the absolute
worst weather. It is far too easy to get distracted and/or lose track of
time, and not keep lookout when one is down below. When conditions are
so bad that it is actively dangerous to stay on deck, then you'll have
worse problems anyway. And it might not be so safe down below!

I look around down below in my H33' and I can see through all the
hatches in all directions 180 and forward except from about 2 Oclock to
10 oclock, thus my question about the forward port. You get those last
four degrees forward with a forward facing port and then you've got 180
to the sides and in front, all you're missing is the astern 180.


Stephen

DSK wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote:

I see a vision of me cooking a quesadia on my propane stove in the
galley looking through my forward facing port light, 12"X 20"ish with
a visor over the top of it to keep out most of the rain, with a custom
heavy weather cover which I'll lash on it in the heaviest P.S. weather.

Lunatic or visionary??? ;-)


Visionary, definitely. But you should have gotten a trawler.

Like this one, for example
http://community.webshots.com/album/63279185YQtgSA

Shoot man, trawler was right up there with 30+ sloop on my list of boats
under 10K as my first boat. My kids voted for the trawler, for sure.
There was this raunchy trawler in North Vancouver I had my eye on...

But hey, I'm in love with the Moonraker. I like the sailing deal. Last
weekend me and my 9yo son took off by motor from Boston Harbor. A guy
there had helped us rig up my only workable sail, a 150 genoa with a
missing clew ring reefed to a reef point on the jib on the only working
clew. I turned off the Yanmar and sailed around the bend at 2 knots. It
was a thing of beauty.

I love the idea of free energy.

Probably my next boat will be a trawler, or um, a bigger sailing cruiser.

Stephen

Rosalie B. wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote:

In article , Stephen Trapani
wrote:


Well, I hope I don't turn into the guy who asks all the nutty questions,
but wouldn't the right sort of hatch or port facing forward in the cabin
of a sailboat make it safer to be below using an autopilot? Why don't
sail designers do more of this? Isn't it possible to make it seaworthy?


What is unsafe about using an autopilot? What is unsafe about being
below when underway whether using an autopilot or not?

Well, if no one is at the helm, everyone below, with no forward facing
port/hatch, one can't see where one is going and what is in front of
them. Can't that be unsafe?


Unless you are single handing somewhere offshore, someone is always at
the helm, whether with autopilot or not. All the autopilot does is
keep you from having to have your hands on the wheel all the time. For
the two of us, someone is always in the cockpit keeping the watch. If
one of us has to go below - the other one is in the cockpit.

I'd suggest that you either need a center cockpit boat with a bimini
and enclosure around the cockpit like ours in which we do most of our
living in the cockpit going below only to sleep when we are off watch
(or to use the facilities or cook which doesn't take long), or
probably better for your purposes - a pilothouse.

The other possibility is to have radar where the screen swivels down
into the cabin or out into the cockpit. Probably would be useful to
have in Puget Sound anyway.

Hey thanks for the advice. I really would like a good Bimini, dodger
setup, somehow, to stay out of the rain. The aft stay is right above my
head at the helm, so I have my doubts.

On the other hand I've spent *much* time in foul weather gear, both on
boats and ashore, and that doesn't bother me much, I don't know. -So
many decisions!

Until my finances take a bigger turn for the better, a radar, Bimini and
such seem like fond dreams for a distant future. My sailing buddy is
sewing his own canvas stuff, maybe I should have him give me lessons. sigh

Stephen

I'm gonna disagree with you slightly on this one Rosalie. I may be just
justifying how my wife and I sail, but while there is always one of us
on watch, that doesn't neccessarily mean that the on watch person never
goes below. When we're cruising along, the vane in control, no other
boat in sight and hasn't been for who know how long, it's not at all
unusual for the one of on watch to go below to use the head, make a
sandwich or cup of tea, etc. and I see no problem with this. We do use
a kitchen timer set to "ding" at us every ten minutes to remind us to
stick our head up and scan the horizon and such. In fact, we usually
use the kitchen timer anytime there's just one of us up (at least I do),
as I'm usually reading or so lost in thought, that without the reminder,
the horizon would never get checked.

Fair winds - Dan

Rosalie B. wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote:

In article , Stephen Trapani
wrote:


Well, I hope I don't turn into the guy who asks all the nutty questions,
but wouldn't the right sort of hatch or port facing forward in the cabin
of a sailboat make it safer to be below using an autopilot? Why don't
sail designers do more of this? Isn't it possible to make it seaworthy?


What is unsafe about using an autopilot? What is unsafe about being
below when underway whether using an autopilot or not?

Well, if no one is at the helm, everyone below, with no forward facing
port/hatch, one can't see where one is going and what is in front of
them. Can't that be unsafe?


Unless you are single handing somewhere offshore, someone is always at
the helm, whether with autopilot or not. All the autopilot does is
keep you from having to have your hands on the wheel all the time. For
the two of us, someone is always in the cockpit keeping the watch. If
one of us has to go below - the other one is in the cockpit.

I'd suggest that you either need a center cockpit boat with a bimini
and enclosure around the cockpit like ours in which we do most of our
living in the cockpit going below only to sleep when we are off watch
(or to use the facilities or cook which doesn't take long), or
probably better for your purposes - a pilothouse.

The other possibility is to have radar where the screen swivels down
into the cabin or out into the cockpit. Probably would be useful to
have in Puget Sound anyway.



grandma Rosalie

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

Dan Best wrote:

I'm gonna disagree with you slightly on this one Rosalie. I may be just
justifying how my wife and I sail, but while there is always one of us
on watch, that doesn't neccessarily mean that the on watch person never
goes below. When we're cruising along, the vane in control, no other
boat in sight and hasn't been for who know how long, it's not at all
unusual for the one of on watch to go below to use the head, make a
sandwich or cup of tea, etc. and I see no problem with this. We do use

AFAI am concerned this is the equivalent of single handing off shore.
We will go offshore, but not that far. But if he's going to sail in
Puget Sound, I don't think this is a viable option.

a kitchen timer set to "ding" at us every ten minutes to remind us to
stick our head up and scan the horizon and such. In fact, we usually
use the kitchen timer anytime there's just one of us up (at least I do),
as I'm usually reading or so lost in thought, that without the reminder,
the horizon would never get checked.

Fair winds - Dan

Rosalie B. wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote:

In article , Stephen Trapani
wrote:


Well, I hope I don't turn into the guy who asks all the nutty questions,
but wouldn't the right sort of hatch or port facing forward in the cabin
of a sailboat make it safer to be below using an autopilot? Why don't
sail designers do more of this? Isn't it possible to make it seaworthy?


What is unsafe about using an autopilot? What is unsafe about being
below when underway whether using an autopilot or not?

Well, if no one is at the helm, everyone below, with no forward facing
port/hatch, one can't see where one is going and what is in front of
them. Can't that be unsafe?


Unless you are single handing somewhere offshore, someone is always at
the helm, whether with autopilot or not. All the autopilot does is
keep you from having to have your hands on the wheel all the time. For
the two of us, someone is always in the cockpit keeping the watch. If
one of us has to go below - the other one is in the cockpit.

I'd suggest that you either need a center cockpit boat with a bimini
and enclosure around the cockpit like ours in which we do most of our
living in the cockpit going below only to sleep when we are off watch
(or to use the facilities or cook which doesn't take long), or
probably better for your purposes - a pilothouse.

The other possibility is to have radar where the screen swivels down
into the cabin or out into the cockpit. Probably would be useful to
have in Puget Sound anyway.



grandma Rosalie

grandma Rosalie

Oops, Sorry Rosalie,
I think I misunderstood what you were saying earlier. When you said
"Unless you are single handing somewhere offshore, someone is always at
the helm, whether with autopilot or not...", I thought you were refering
to the extended time without checking that happens while single handers
are forced to sleep. An entirely different thing in my mind.

I personaly am mildly critical of long distance single handers, but only
VERY mildly. First, because I've never heard of a single hander hitting
anything and hurting anyone except themselves (and that's their own
business), 2nd, because it was probably Robin Grahams articles in
National Geographic back when I was a teen that originally put the
cruising bug under my skin, and finally because if I wasn't lucky enough
to be married to someone who enjoys sailing and cruising almost as much
as I do, there's no doubt in my mind that I'd be out there single
handing myself.

Take care - Dan

Rosalie B. wrote:
Dan Best wrote:


I'm gonna disagree with you slightly on this one Rosalie. I may be just
justifying how my wife and I sail, but while there is always one of us
on watch, that doesn't neccessarily mean that the on watch person never
goes below. When we're cruising along, the vane in control, no other
boat in sight and hasn't been for who know how long, it's not at all
unusual for the one of on watch to go below to use the head, make a
sandwich or cup of tea, etc. and I see no problem with this. We do use


AFAI am concerned this is the equivalent of single handing off shore.
We will go offshore, but not that far. But if he's going to sail in
Puget Sound, I don't think this is a viable option.


a kitchen timer set to "ding" at us every ten minutes to remind us to
stick our head up and scan the horizon and such. In fact, we usually
use the kitchen timer anytime there's just one of us up (at least I do),
as I'm usually reading or so lost in thought, that without the reminder,
the horizon would never get checked.

Fair winds - Dan

Rosalie B. wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote:


Rosalie B. wrote:


In article , Stephen Trapani
wrote:



Well, I hope I don't turn into the guy who asks all the nutty questions,
but wouldn't the right sort of hatch or port facing forward in the cabin
of a sailboat make it safer to be below using an autopilot? Why don't
sail designers do more of this? Isn't it possible to make it seaworthy?


What is unsafe about using an autopilot? What is unsafe about being
below when underway whether using an autopilot or not?

Well, if no one is at the helm, everyone below, with no forward facing
port/hatch, one can't see where one is going and what is in front of
them. Can't that be unsafe?


Unless you are single handing somewhere offshore, someone is always at
the helm, whether with autopilot or not. All the autopilot does is
keep you from having to have your hands on the wheel all the time. For
the two of us, someone is always in the cockpit keeping the watch. If
one of us has to go below - the other one is in the cockpit.

I'd suggest that you either need a center cockpit boat with a bimini
and enclosure around the cockpit like ours in which we do most of our
living in the cockpit going below only to sleep when we are off watch
(or to use the facilities or cook which doesn't take long), or
probably better for your purposes - a pilothouse.

The other possibility is to have radar where the screen swivels down
into the cabin or out into the cockpit. Probably would be useful to
have in Puget Sound anyway.



grandma Rosalie


grandma Rosalie

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

Here's a link to an appeal court's ruling that I found interesting because it is
a rare case where a boat was found 100% at fault, rather than shared blame. The
sailboat, Coyote, is the vessel Mike Plant disappeared from when the keel fell
off. His fiancée inherited the boat and chartered it to Dave Scully, who bumped
it into a fishing boat on a qualifying run. Scully was found 100% at fault, for
not having a lookout or proper lights.

http://www.law.emory.edu/4circuit/dec97/961209.p.html

I also have mixed feelings about single hand racers. However, during actual
events there doesn't seem to be much of a problem. On the other hand, I've a
number of close calls where a sport fisherman was going at 30 knots towards the
same waypoint without anyone on the bridge.



"Dan Best" wrote in message
news:MhSwc.62268$Ly.45902@attbi_s01...
Oops, Sorry Rosalie,
I think I misunderstood what you were saying earlier. When you said
"Unless you are single handing somewhere offshore, someone is always at
the helm, whether with autopilot or not...", I thought you were refering
to the extended time without checking that happens while single handers
are forced to sleep. An entirely different thing in my mind.

I personaly am mildly critical of long distance single handers, but only
VERY mildly. First, because I've never heard of a single hander hitting
anything and hurting anyone except themselves (and that's their own
business), 2nd, because it was probably Robin Grahams articles in
National Geographic back when I was a teen that originally put the
cruising bug under my skin, and finally because if I wasn't lucky enough
to be married to someone who enjoys sailing and cruising almost as much
as I do, there's no doubt in my mind that I'd be out there single
handing myself.

Take care - Dan

Rosalie B. wrote:
Dan Best wrote:


I'm gonna disagree with you slightly on this one Rosalie. I may be just
justifying how my wife and I sail, but while there is always one of us
on watch, that doesn't neccessarily mean that the on watch person never
goes below. When we're cruising along, the vane in control, no other
boat in sight and hasn't been for who know how long, it's not at all
unusual for the one of on watch to go below to use the head, make a
sandwich or cup of tea, etc. and I see no problem with this. We do use


AFAI am concerned this is the equivalent of single handing off shore.
We will go offshore, but not that far. But if he's going to sail in
Puget Sound, I don't think this is a viable option.


a kitchen timer set to "ding" at us every ten minutes to remind us to
stick our head up and scan the horizon and such. In fact, we usually
use the kitchen timer anytime there's just one of us up (at least I do),
as I'm usually reading or so lost in thought, that without the reminder,
the horizon would never get checked.

Fair winds - Dan

Rosalie B. wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote:


Rosalie B. wrote:


In article , Stephen Trapani
wrote:



Well, I hope I don't turn into the guy who asks all the nutty
questions,
but wouldn't the right sort of hatch or port facing forward in the
cabin
of a sailboat make it safer to be below using an autopilot? Why don't
sail designers do more of this? Isn't it possible to make it seaworthy?


What is unsafe about using an autopilot? What is unsafe about being
below when underway whether using an autopilot or not?

Well, if no one is at the helm, everyone below, with no forward facing
port/hatch, one can't see where one is going and what is in front of
them. Can't that be unsafe?


Unless you are single handing somewhere offshore, someone is always at
the helm, whether with autopilot or not. All the autopilot does is
keep you from having to have your hands on the wheel all the time. For
the two of us, someone is always in the cockpit keeping the watch. If
one of us has to go below - the other one is in the cockpit.

I'd suggest that you either need a center cockpit boat with a bimini
and enclosure around the cockpit like ours in which we do most of our
living in the cockpit going below only to sleep when we are off watch
(or to use the facilities or cook which doesn't take long), or
probably better for your purposes - a pilothouse.

The other possibility is to have radar where the screen swivels down
into the cabin or out into the cockpit. Probably would be useful to
have in Puget Sound anyway.



grandma Rosalie


grandma Rosalie

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

"Jeff Morris" wrote:

Here's a link to an appeal court's ruling that I found interesting because it is
a rare case where a boat was found 100% at fault, rather than shared blame. The
sailboat, Coyote, is the vessel Mike Plant disappeared from when the keel fell
off. His fiancée inherited the boat and chartered it to Dave Scully, who bumped
it into a fishing boat on a qualifying run. Scully was found 100% at fault, for
not having a lookout or proper lights.

http://www.law.emory.edu/4circuit/dec97/961209.p.html

I also have mixed feelings about single hand racers. However, during actual
events there doesn't seem to be much of a problem. On the other hand, I've a
number of close calls where a sport fisherman was going at 30 knots towards the
same waypoint without anyone on the bridge.

Yes - or they are talking on a cell phone and not paying attention.


"Dan Best" wrote in message
news:MhSwc.62268$Ly.45902@attbi_s01...
Oops, Sorry Rosalie,
I think I misunderstood what you were saying earlier. When you said
"Unless you are single handing somewhere offshore, someone is always at
the helm, whether with autopilot or not...", I thought you were refering
to the extended time without checking that happens while single handers
are forced to sleep. An entirely different thing in my mind.

Well I didn't make that very clear.
See incident below.

I personaly am mildly critical of long distance single handers, but only
VERY mildly. First, because I've never heard of a single hander hitting
anything and hurting anyone except themselves (and that's their own
business), 2nd, because it was probably Robin Grahams articles in
National Geographic back when I was a teen that originally put the
cruising bug under my skin, and finally because if I wasn't lucky enough
to be married to someone who enjoys sailing and cruising almost as much
as I do, there's no doubt in my mind that I'd be out there single
handing myself.

I know folks like that too

Take care - Dan

Rosalie B. wrote:
Dan Best wrote:


I'm gonna disagree with you slightly on this one Rosalie. I may be just
justifying how my wife and I sail, but while there is always one of us
on watch, that doesn't neccessarily mean that the on watch person never
goes below. When we're cruising along, the vane in control, no other
boat in sight and hasn't been for who know how long, it's not at all
unusual for the one of on watch to go below to use the head, make a
sandwich or cup of tea, etc. and I see no problem with this. We do use

I was distracted when I read this by the memories of an incident that
happened near here which was reported in both the local newspaper and
the SSCA Bulletin.

A couple - who had sailed extensively (they were SSCA Commanders) but
who were going home to New England to sell their boat because the man
of the couple had a fatal disease of some type - were on a their
Valiant 40 (IIRC) and were sailing or motor sailing up the Chesapeake
at night. I think it was spring.

[Note - I don't know why they were doing this - it seems crazy to me.
There's crab pots if nothing else. And it would be perfectly easy to
anchor someplace for the night]

He was at the helm - she was below asleep. He saw something on the
radar that he didn't understand, and went below. The newspaper
account said to get a cup of coffee and what she wrote for SSCA said
to check the chart. In any case, the boat went between a tug and a
tow and sank in less than 15 minutes. They barely escaped into a boat
with their lives - they lost everything they owned. They were picked
up very quickly (within about half an hour) by the Calvert Co.
volunteer fire department boat (which is the most astonishing part of
it if you know the Bay coast of Calvert Co.) She didn't seem grateful
enough for that IMHO.


AFAI am concerned this is the equivalent of single handing off shore.
We will go offshore, but not that far. But if he's going to sail in
Puget Sound, I don't think this is a viable option.


a kitchen timer set to "ding" at us every ten minutes to remind us to
stick our head up and scan the horizon and such. In fact, we usually
use the kitchen timer anytime there's just one of us up (at least I do),
as I'm usually reading or so lost in thought, that without the reminder,
the horizon would never get checked.

Fair winds - Dan

Rosalie B. wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote:


Rosalie B. wrote:


In article , Stephen Trapani
wrote:



Well, I hope I don't turn into the guy who asks all the nutty
questions,
but wouldn't the right sort of hatch or port facing forward in the
cabin
of a sailboat make it safer to be below using an autopilot? Why don't
sail designers do more of this? Isn't it possible to make it seaworthy?


What is unsafe about using an autopilot? What is unsafe about being
below when underway whether using an autopilot or not?

Well, if no one is at the helm, everyone below, with no forward facing
port/hatch, one can't see where one is going and what is in front of
them. Can't that be unsafe?


Unless you are single handing somewhere offshore, someone is always at
the helm, whether with autopilot or not. All the autopilot does is
keep you from having to have your hands on the wheel all the time. For
the two of us, someone is always in the cockpit keeping the watch. If
one of us has to go below - the other one is in the cockpit.

I'd suggest that you either need a center cockpit boat with a bimini
and enclosure around the cockpit like ours in which we do most of our
living in the cockpit going below only to sleep when we are off watch
(or to use the facilities or cook which doesn't take long), or
probably better for your purposes - a pilothouse.

The other possibility is to have radar where the screen swivels down
into the cabin or out into the cockpit. Probably would be useful to
have in Puget Sound anyway.



grandma Rosalie


grandma Rosalie

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG



grandma Rosalie

The only thing that I could think of is a plastic 'navigators' bubble
that would give 360 deg. visability

Speaking of which, where could one be found?

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 04:59:30 GMT, wrote:

The only thing that I could think of is a plastic 'navigators' bubble
that would give 360 deg. visability

Speaking of which, where could one be found?

===========================================

They are usually custom fabricated. Here's some info on how to do it:

http://www.designnews.com/article/CA85859

http://www.bayplastics.co.uk/menu%20...abrication.htm

http://makeashorterlink.com/?R31623488