"Marty" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
"Marty" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
"Marty" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
On Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:39:43 -0500, Marty said:

A typical wind farm will run from $500 million to $2 billion, you
think tree huggers are providing the capital for these?
So I take it you believe there is no need for the guvmint to spend
taxpayer
money subsidizing these installations?
So I take it you believe there is no need for the guvmint to use
taxpayer money to prevent Union Carbide from dumping as much toxic
waste in the environment as they feel like.
??????
Come on, Marty. I know you're more rational than to post such a
non-sequitur. Do you believe those wind farms offer enough profit so
as not
to require the taxpayers to shovel tax money at them?
Why not? You post them all the time.

Anyway, yes, they offer enough profit; although it's for thoroughly
idiotic reasons. One reason, though somewhat minor is that some
environmentalists are foolish enough to pay a premium for "green"
energy. More important are heavy industries who find that it's great
to capitalize these projects and use the resultant carbon credits to
offset their own pollution and thereby not have to invest heavily in
other reduction technology. Profit is a powerful motivator.

They do make money otherwise, do a little work with Google and see why
Texas has so much installed wind plant.

Even given that, I'd rather the guvmint subsidize clean energy than
AIG.

Not that I really like either.


Cheers
Martin


I guess I'm one of those "environmentalists," since I do pay extra
every month for clean energy.


Jon, I'm almost anathema to environmentalists, I believe that nuclear is
a very clean way to go, and I don't have to pay a premium for it. More
than half of Ontario's installed capacity, (some 30,000 Megawatts) is
nuclear. Of course I think that the CANDU reactor is particulary
attractive; doesn't need enriched fuel, can be used to burn weapons
grade plutonium and thereby dispose of the stuff, is inherently safe,
(the coolant is also the moderator, loose coolant, the reaction
stops)......


Cheers
Martin


There are lots of environmentalists who have rethought the nuclear option
for energy. At one point, I thought it a good option (and perhaps it is).
My main concern with that option is the environmental cost of mining the
uranium, which seems to be pretty destructive.

Compare it to coal mining. Actually burning coal releases more radioactive
nucleotides into the atmosphere than any reactor. Compare the mining to
pipeline breakages, tanker groundings, and the mess that drilling can
produce.

Cheers
Martin



I think that given the current alternatives, it's a technology that should
be revisited. Clearly, safety and storing/destroying the byproduct are the
most important concerns. From what I've read, the radiation from mining
uranium is equivalent to mining granite.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 20:34:00 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

I'm not worried. I've made my millions and have invested wisely - as in
offshore numbered accounts

Anybody want to get in on the IRS's bounty for turning in tax cheats?


The IRS is supposed to ignore discrepancies of less than $100.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
http://www.dailytech.com/Article.aspx?newsid=13834

Sea ice at same levels as 1979. Another nail in the coffin of global
warming alarmists and kook believers.

Wilbur Hubbard



The Frightening New Evidence Scientists Have Just Learned About Global
Warming
By Steve Connor, Independent UK
Posted on January 13, 2009, Printed on January 16, 2009
http://www.alternet.org/story/113354/

Scientists have found the first unequivocal evidence that the Arctic
region is warming at a faster rate than the rest of the world at least a
decade before it was predicted to happen.

Climate-change researchers have found that air temperatures in the
region are higher than would be normally expected during the autumn
because the increased melting of the summer Arctic sea ice is
accumulating heat in the ocean. The phenomenon, known as Arctic
amplification, was not expected to be seen for at least another 10 or 15
years and the findings will further raise concerns that the Arctic has
already passed the climatic tipping-point towards ice-free summers,
beyond which it may not recover.

The Arctic is considered one of the most sensitive regions in terms of
climate change and its transition to another climatic state will have a
direct impact on other parts of the northern hemisphere, as well more
indirect effects around the world.

Although researchers have documented a catastrophic loss of sea ice
during the summer months over the past 20 years, they have not until now
detected the definitive temperature signal that they could link with
greenhouse-gas emissions.

However, in a study to be presented later today to the annual meeting of
the American Geophysical Union in San Francisco, scientists will show
that Arctic amplification has been under way for the past five years,
and it will continue to intensify Arctic warming for the foreseeable future.

Computer models of the global climate have for years suggested the
Arctic will warm at a faster rate than the rest of the world due to
Arctic amplification but many scientists believed this effect would only
become measurable in the coming decades.

However, a study by scientists from the US National Snow and Ice Data
Centre (NSIDC) in Colorado has found that amplification is already
showing up as a marked increase in surface air temperatures within the
Arctic region during the autumn period, when the sea ice begins to
reform after the summer melting period.

Julienne Stroeve, of the NSIDC, who led the study with her colleague
Mark Serreze, said that autumn air temperatures this year and in recent
years have been anomalously high. The Arctic Ocean warmed more than
usual because heat from the sun was absorbed more easily by the dark
areas of open water compared to the highly reflective surface of a
frozen sea. "Autumn 2008 saw very strong surface temperature anomalies
over the areas where the sea ice was lost," Dr Stroeve told The
Independent ahead of her presentation today.

"The observed autumn warming that we've seen over the Arctic Ocean, not
just this year but over the past five years or so, represents Arctic
amplification, the notion that rises in surface air temperatures in
response to increased atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations will be
larger in the Arctic than elsewhere over the globe," she said. "The
warming climate is leading to more open water in the Arctic Ocean. As
these open water areas develop through spring and summer, they absorb
most of the sun's energy, leading to ocean warming.

"In autumn, as the sun sets in the Arctic, most of the heat that was
gained in the ocean during summer is released back to the atmosphere,
acting to warm the atmosphere. It is this heat-release back to the
atmosphere that gives us Arctic amplification."

Temperature readings for this October were significantly higher than
normal across the entire Arctic region – between 3C and 5C above average
– but some areas were dramatically higher. In the Beaufort Sea, north of
Alaska, for instance, near-surface air temperatures were more than 7C
higher than normal for this time of year. The scientists believe the
only reasonable explanation for such high autumn readings is that the
ocean heat accumulated during the summer because of the loss of sea ice
is being released back into the atmosphere from the sea before winter
sea ice has chance to reform.

"One of the reasons we focus on Arctic amplification is that it is a
good test of greenhouse warming theory. Even our earliest climate models
were telling us that we should see this Arctic amplification emerge as
we lose the summer ice cover," Dr Stroeve said. "This is exactly what we
are not starting to see in the observations. Simply put, it's a case of
we hate to say we told you so, but we did," she added.

Computer models have also predicted totally ice-free summers in the
Arctic by 2070, but many scientists now believe that the first ice-free
summer could occur far earlier than this, perhaps within the next 20 years.

© 2009 Independent UK All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/113354/

On Jan 16, 6:31*pm, hpeer wrote:
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
http://www.dailytech.com/Article.aspx?newsid=13834

Sea ice at same levels as 1979. *Another nail in the coffin of global
warming alarmists and kook believers.

Wilbur Hubbard

The Frightening New Evidence Scientists Have Just Learned About Global
Warming
By Steve Connor, Independent UK
Posted on January 13, 2009, Printed on January 16, 2009http://www.alternet.org/story/113354/

Scientists have found the first unequivocal evidence that the Arctic
region is warming at a faster rate than the rest of the world at least a
decade before it was predicted to happen.

Climate-change researchers have found that air temperatures in the
region are higher than would be normally expected during the autumn
because the increased melting of the summer Arctic sea ice is
accumulating heat in the ocean. The phenomenon, known as Arctic
amplification, was not expected to be seen for at least another 10 or 15
years and the findings will further raise concerns that the Arctic has
already passed the climatic tipping-point towards ice-free summers,
beyond which it may not recover.

The Arctic is considered one of the most sensitive regions in terms of
climate change and its transition to another climatic state will have a
direct impact on other parts of the northern hemisphere, as well more
indirect effects around the world.

Although researchers have documented a catastrophic loss of sea ice
during the summer months over the past 20 years, they have not until now
detected the definitive temperature signal that they could link with
greenhouse-gas emissions.

However, in a study to be presented later today to the annual meeting of
the American Geophysical Union in San Francisco, scientists will show
that Arctic amplification has been under way for the past five years,
and it will continue to intensify Arctic warming for the foreseeable future.

Computer models of the global climate have for years suggested the
Arctic will warm at a faster rate than the rest of the world due to
Arctic amplification but many scientists believed this effect would only
become measurable in the coming decades.

However, a study by scientists from the US National Snow and Ice Data
Centre (NSIDC) in Colorado has found that amplification is already
showing up as a marked increase in surface air temperatures within the
Arctic region during the autumn period, when the sea ice begins to
reform after the summer melting period.

Julienne Stroeve, of the NSIDC, who led the study with her colleague
Mark Serreze, said that autumn air temperatures this year and in recent
years have been anomalously high. The Arctic Ocean warmed more than
usual because heat from the sun was absorbed more easily by the dark
areas of open water compared to the highly reflective surface of a
frozen sea. "Autumn 2008 saw very strong surface temperature anomalies
over the areas where the sea ice was lost," Dr Stroeve told The
Independent ahead of her presentation today.

"The observed autumn warming that we've seen over the Arctic Ocean, not
just this year but over the past five years or so, represents Arctic
amplification, the notion that rises in surface air temperatures in
response to increased atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations will be
larger in the Arctic than elsewhere over the globe," she said. "The
warming climate is leading to more open water in the Arctic Ocean. As
these open water areas develop through spring and summer, they absorb
most of the sun's energy, leading to ocean warming.

"In autumn, as the sun sets in the Arctic, most of the heat that was
gained in the ocean during summer is released back to the atmosphere,
acting to warm the atmosphere. It is this heat-release back to the
atmosphere that gives us Arctic amplification."

Temperature readings for this October were significantly higher than
normal across the entire Arctic region – between 3C and 5C above average
– but some areas were dramatically higher. In the Beaufort Sea, north of
Alaska, for instance, near-surface air temperatures were more than 7C
higher than normal for this time of year. The scientists believe the
only reasonable explanation for such high autumn readings is that the
ocean heat accumulated during the summer because of the loss of sea ice
is being released back into the atmosphere from the sea before winter
sea ice has chance to reform.

"One of the reasons we focus on Arctic amplification is that it is a
good test of greenhouse warming theory. Even our earliest climate models
were telling us that we should see this Arctic amplification emerge as
we lose the summer ice cover," Dr Stroeve said. "This is exactly what we
are not starting to see in the observations. Simply put, it's a case of
we hate to say we told you so, but we did," she added.

Computer models have also predicted totally ice-free summers in the
Arctic by 2070, but many scientists now believe that the first ice-free
summer could occur far earlier than this, perhaps within the next 20 years.

© 2009 Independent UK All rights reserved.
View this story online at:http://www.alternet.org/story/113354/

but you dont understand...... Fox News would never lie.

hpeer wrote:



The Frightening New Evidence Scientists Have Just Learned About Global
Warming
By Steve Connor, Independent UK
Posted on January 13, 2009, Printed on January 16, 2009
http://www.alternet.org/story/113354/


It's polar shift...the North Pole is moving itslef to Ironwood, Michigan....

"katy" wrote in message
om...
hpeer wrote:



The Frightening New Evidence Scientists Have Just Learned About Global
Warming
By Steve Connor, Independent UK
Posted on January 13, 2009, Printed on January 16, 2009
http://www.alternet.org/story/113354/

It's polar shift...the North Pole is moving itslef to Ironwood,
Michigan....

Here in Wisconsin we've had negative degrees for several days. Global
warming would be welcome.

KLC Lewis wrote:
"katy" wrote in message
om...
hpeer wrote:

The Frightening New Evidence Scientists Have Just Learned About Global
Warming
By Steve Connor, Independent UK
Posted on January 13, 2009, Printed on January 16, 2009
http://www.alternet.org/story/113354/

It's polar shift...the North Pole is moving itslef to Ironwood,
Michigan....

Here in Wisconsin we've had negative degrees for several days. Global
warming would be welcome.



hahahaha...being fromMichigan,I hae been getting aily weather reports
frommy aughter...nasty nasty nasty...even here in coastalNC we ha 10
egrees last night an my son reprote they ha 8F in
Atlanta!Unfortunately,this type of climate conition oesinicate some sort
of change in overall climate conitions,often times warming (chaos
theory)...guess we'll all fin out later than sooner...

"katy" wrote in message
om...
hahahaha...being fromMichigan,I hae been getting aily weather reports
frommy aughter...nasty nasty nasty...even here in coastalNC we ha 10
egrees last night an my son reprote they ha 8F in
Atlanta!Unfortunately,this type of climate conition oesinicate some sort
of change in overall climate conitions,often times warming (chaos
theory)...guess we'll all fin out later than sooner...

Katy, I'm guessing that "sundowners" began hours ago. lol

katy wrote:
KLC Lewis wrote:
"katy" wrote in message
om...
hpeer wrote:

The Frightening New Evidence Scientists Have Just Learned About
Global Warming
By Steve Connor, Independent UK
Posted on January 13, 2009, Printed on January 16, 2009
http://www.alternet.org/story/113354/

It's polar shift...the North Pole is moving itslef to Ironwood,
Michigan....

Here in Wisconsin we've had negative degrees for several days. Global
warming would be welcome.


hahahaha...being fromMichigan,I hae been getting aily weather reports
frommy aughter...nasty nasty nasty...even here in coastalNC we ha 10
egrees last night an my son reprote they ha 8F in
Atlanta!Unfortunately,this type of climate conition oesinicate some sort
of change in overall climate conitions,often times warming (chaos
theory)...guess we'll all fin out later than sooner...

Help is on the way Katy, Norman Wells NWT just reported 12 degrees,
that's 56 for you 'Mericans... a record high...

Cheers
Martin

hpeer wrote in
m:

Computer models have also predicted totally ice-free summers in the
Arctic by 2070, but many scientists now believe that the first
ice-free summer could occur far earlier than this, perhaps within the
next 20 years.



The Government Grant machine is running MUCH better than the economy.....