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The worst Democrat President
"Larry" wrote in message ... Stephen Trapani wrote in news:TEcbl.44122 : Okay, now just think for five seconds. You know that Hamas soldiers store their weapons and fire missiles from heavily populated areas, right? Now why would they do that if Israel has such a disregard for civilian casualties? Next question. Israel didn't invade Gaza until more than *10,000* missiles had been fired at Israeli civilians. How many rockets would you tolerate being fired at you before you wanted the country firing them invaded and stopped? You're smart Larry, you can do this. Stephen But, Steven, you're still making the most powerful country in the Middle East, the one with hundreds of nuclear weapons from its nuclear weapons labs, the most powerful Army and Air Force, THE ONE BLOCKADING AND STARVING THE CHILDRED THEY'RE CLUSTER BOMBING TONIGHT, out as the victim. They are NOT the victim. Hamas rockets are the result of a crippling BLOCKADE turning Gaza into a concentration camp of starving human suffering! No amount of Jewish bull**** can cover that FACT. The blockade is complete and unrelenting. What's the difference between being killed by American bombs from Israeli planes and just sitting there starving to death because there's no food to eat, no jobs to get, total hopelessness from the Zionist Apartheid government practicing ethnic genocide? The Jews moved out of Gazan settlements and then sealed the place up to starve out the Palestinians that are left. When is enough genocide enough? If Hamas had never fired a single rocket, their people would be STILL paying the price starving their children to death in the Israeli's concentration camps. This isn't new. It's been going on since 1948. What the rockets DID do was BRING WORLD ATTENTION TO THEM THEY LACKED. The rockets have done a wonderful job getting attention to their plight. Jew media is having a hard time explaining the TRUTH about the BLOCKADE. I am smart. That's why I cannot stand the Israeli takeover of my country. You are a filthy pig. |
The worst Democrat President
"jlrogers±³©" wrote in news:SJqbl.112$Lr6.82
@flpi143.ffdc.sbc.com: You are a filthy pig. Wow...I'm impressed. |
The worst Democrat President
"Larry" wrote in message
... "Capt. JG" wrote in easolutions: I think you should tell us again about Hitler's unfinished final solution... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com Same deflection from the facts....different day.... So, you're not going to remind us? Ok, here you go: **** you and your goddamned Zionist murderers. **** the Zionist US government for supporting genocide. Hitler should have killed them all. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
The worst Democrat President
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:06:39 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:11:25 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Snipped... When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society, were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in some way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish, especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own version of the dark ages to return. Stephen So, you are going to rewrite three holy books? I don't believe it's gonna work. First of all there are at least two versions of the Christian's holy book and one of them used by a bunch that argues they were appointed by the founder of the religion and another gang that insists that the first lot is corrupt. The Moslems believe that their book is the actual word of God. Dictated by him/her/it directly to Muhammad. The Jews believe that certain parts of their book is, again, the direct word of God, handed down on tablets of stone. I'm interested, who are you going to get to manage this project? No need to rewrite. Just do what all denominations do: Offensive passages are thought of as metaphorical or not actual commandments for our time (only relevant to the times they were written in). Using this method you can make the actual words say almost anything you want them to say. Stephen Won't work. Absolutely for the Moslems who believe that, as I said, the Koran is the actual word of God. The Jews have centuries of study of The Law and probably won't accept an outsider interfering with Their Law. The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
The worst Democrat President
"Larry" wrote in message
... "Capt. JG" wrote in news:27mdnTc- reasolutions: "Larry" wrote in message ... "Capt. JG" wrote in easolutions: I think you should tell us again about Hitler's unfinished final solution... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com Same deflection from the facts....different day.... So, you're not going to remind us? Ok, here you go: **** you and your goddamned Zionist murderers. **** the Zionist US government for supporting genocide. Hitler should have killed them all. Hitler was just following the instructions in the Talmud. QED Take your racist sh*t elsewhere. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
The worst Democrat President
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:06:39 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:11:25 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Snipped... When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society, were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in some way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish, especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own version of the dark ages to return. Stephen So, you are going to rewrite three holy books? I don't believe it's gonna work. First of all there are at least two versions of the Christian's holy book and one of them used by a bunch that argues they were appointed by the founder of the religion and another gang that insists that the first lot is corrupt. The Moslems believe that their book is the actual word of God. Dictated by him/her/it directly to Muhammad. The Jews believe that certain parts of their book is, again, the direct word of God, handed down on tablets of stone. I'm interested, who are you going to get to manage this project? No need to rewrite. Just do what all denominations do: Offensive passages are thought of as metaphorical or not actual commandments for our time (only relevant to the times they were written in). Using this method you can make the actual words say almost anything you want them to say. Stephen Won't work. Absolutely for the Moslems who believe that, as I said, the Koran is the actual word of God. The Jews have centuries of study of The Law and probably won't accept an outsider interfering with Their Law. You don't get it. There already are numerous Moslem and Jewish denominations who already do it. The "extremists" take the violent and aggressive parts seriously, the rest don't, etc. I'm not sure what you don't understand. Israel itself is not based on the Talmud. They specifically put rationality above the Talmud. The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect? The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here. Stephen |
The worst Democrat President
Larry wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote in news:Cegbl.21426 : When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society, were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in some way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish, especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own version of the dark ages to return. Stephen I think my ideas are better. America simply EXTRICATES itself from foreign entanglements and LEAVES EVERYONE ELSE ALONE! All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Stephen |
The worst Democrat President
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:06:39 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:11:25 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Snipped... When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society, were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in some way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish, especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own version of the dark ages to return. Stephen So, you are going to rewrite three holy books? I don't believe it's gonna work. First of all there are at least two versions of the Christian's holy book and one of them used by a bunch that argues they were appointed by the founder of the religion and another gang that insists that the first lot is corrupt. The Moslems believe that their book is the actual word of God. Dictated by him/her/it directly to Muhammad. The Jews believe that certain parts of their book is, again, the direct word of God, handed down on tablets of stone. I'm interested, who are you going to get to manage this project? No need to rewrite. Just do what all denominations do: Offensive passages are thought of as metaphorical or not actual commandments for our time (only relevant to the times they were written in). Using this method you can make the actual words say almost anything you want them to say. Stephen Won't work. Absolutely for the Moslems who believe that, as I said, the Koran is the actual word of God. The Jews have centuries of study of The Law and probably won't accept an outsider interfering with Their Law. You don't get it. There already are numerous Moslem and Jewish denominations who already do it. The "extremists" take the violent and aggressive parts seriously, the rest don't, etc. I'm not sure what you don't understand. Israel itself is not based on the Talmud. They specifically put rationality above the Talmud. True - the "Modern Jews" and the Orthodox. the problem is the Orthodox guys are the noisy ones who don't want their interpretation of the Law changed. The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect? The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here. True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains that they all believe the Book. As far as Moslems living among the infidel without clashing with the law see the recent Dutch legislation emphasizing that Moslems must obey Dutch laws; the Moslem youth burning cars in France; the Moslem youths bombing subways in England. I suggest that it isn't a marriage made in Heaven. Stephen Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
The worst Democrat President
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
... Larry wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote in news:Cegbl.21426 : When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society, were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in some way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish, especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own version of the dark ages to return. Stephen I think my ideas are better. America simply EXTRICATES itself from foreign entanglements and LEAVES EVERYONE ELSE ALONE! All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Stephen Here here. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
The worst Democrat President
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 01:57:27 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote: "Stephen Trapani" wrote in message ... Larry wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote in news:Cegbl.21426 : When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society, were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in some way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish, especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own version of the dark ages to return. Stephen I think my ideas are better. America simply EXTRICATES itself from foreign entanglements and LEAVES EVERYONE ELSE ALONE! All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Stephen Here here. Agreed. I don't want to re-start the middle-east wars but to someone living out side the U.S. the whole thing is simply incomprehensible. And not as though there weren't problems at home. We watched the New Orleans fiasco (for want of a better word) with amazement. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
The worst Democrat President
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message ... All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Stephen I'm sorry, but if you think that we have foreign entanglements because we are out there "fighting evil," you are unbelievably naive. |
The worst Democrat President
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
et... "Stephen Trapani" wrote in message ... All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Stephen I'm sorry, but if you think that we have foreign entanglements because we are out there "fighting evil," you are unbelievably naive. I don't think that's what he's saying. I certainly don't agree that anything approaching the majority of our foreing entanglements have anything to do with fighting evil. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
The worst Democrat President
KLC Lewis wrote:
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message ... All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Stephen I'm sorry, but if you think that we have foreign entanglements because we are out there "fighting evil," you are unbelievably naive. Ironically, the unbelievable naivety is in thinking there is no evil for us to fight. Stephen |
The worst Democrat President
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani [...] The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect? The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here. True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains that they all believe the Book. That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it. Personally I believe people gravitate toward what they want to believe. There are so many different denominations and religions conveniently designed for any and all psychological weaknesses that finding one that fits ones own is usually easy. The extremist murderers have murder in them already and find a religion that encourages it. So the solution is as I said at the beginning of this discussion, and exactly as Israel, the US and all true democractic societies have done, put rationality in charge of the country as best you can and make religion conform to rationality. This is *exactly* why supporting Israel is so important. We have to fight for this important advancement in humanity everywhere we find it. If we don't we will lose it. Incidentally, rationality will eventually destroy religion entirely, given enough time, because of course, no religion really makes sense. As far as Moslems living among the infidel without clashing with the law see the recent Dutch legislation emphasizing that Moslems must obey Dutch laws; the Moslem youth burning cars in France; the Moslem youths bombing subways in England. I suggest that it isn't a marriage made in Heaven. These are still the extremists among them. There are millions of "moderate" Muslims living in the US and other democractic countries that never create a stitch of conflict. Stephen |
The worst Democrat President
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
... KLC Lewis wrote: "Stephen Trapani" wrote in message ... All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Stephen I'm sorry, but if you think that we have foreign entanglements because we are out there "fighting evil," you are unbelievably naive. Ironically, the unbelievable naivety is in thinking there is no evil for us to fight. Stephen No doubt, but we're not doing that in most cases right now. Perhaps that will change. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
The worst Democrat President
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani [...] The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect? The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here. True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains that they all believe the Book. That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it. Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes to the Koran with the indigenous peoples. If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your ticket. Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans. Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
The worst Democrat President
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani [...] The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect? The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here. True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains that they all believe the Book. That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it. Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes to the Koran with the indigenous peoples. If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your ticket. Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans. Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers, Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course, utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more. Stephen |
The worst Democrat President
Dave wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani said: Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes to the Koran with the indigenous peoples. If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your ticket. Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans. Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers, Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. That is neither a fair nor a reasonable reading of Bruce's post. Sure it is. I said that religions, inlcluding Islam, already have accamodated themselves to governments via changing how they view their holy book |
The worst Democrat President
Dave wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani said: Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes to the Koran with the indigenous peoples. If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your ticket. Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans. Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers, Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. That is neither a fair nor a reasonable reading of Bruce's post. Sure it is. I said various denominations of Islam have accommodated themselves to democratic governments. As evidence I gave the example of many Muslims within the US and other democracies who do not feel compelled to break any laws due to their religion. He apparently thinks this condition does not exist and any attempt to suggest it does will result in a death threat against me by Islam. Ridiculous on the face of it, isn't it? Stephen |
The worst Democrat President
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani [...] The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect? The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here. True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains that they all believe the Book. That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it. Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes to the Koran with the indigenous peoples. If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your ticket. Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans. Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers, Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course, utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more. Stephen T Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source: Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an 2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from Islamic belief in its revealed nature... Or: Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as God's final revelation to humanity. Or: Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God, said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself maintains. In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and unchangeable. My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far more convincing argument that you are correct. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
The worst Democrat President
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani [...] The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect? The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here. True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains that they all believe the Book. That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it. Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes to the Koran with the indigenous peoples. If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your ticket. Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans. Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers, Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course, utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more. Stephen T Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source: Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an 2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from Islamic belief in its revealed nature... Or: Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as God's final revelation to humanity. Or: Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God, said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself maintains. In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and unchangeable. My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far more convincing argument that you are correct. I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is *all* the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles sometimes, in metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There are passages in each book that are widely contested among each religion. This contention divides members of each religion into denominations, factions, etc. If you think that your country contains Muslims that all agree and don't separate themselves into different denominations based upon their interpretation of their book then you need to open your eyes and look around. Stephen |
The worst Democrat President
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
... Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani [...] The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect? The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here. True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains that they all believe the Book. That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it. Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes to the Koran with the indigenous peoples. If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your ticket. Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans. Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers, Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course, utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more. Stephen T Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source: Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an 2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from Islamic belief in its revealed nature... Or: Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as God's final revelation to humanity. Or: Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God, said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself maintains. In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and unchangeable. My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far more convincing argument that you are correct. I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is *all* the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles sometimes, in metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There are passages in each book that are widely contested among each religion. This contention divides members of each religion into denominations, factions, etc. If you think that your country contains Muslims that all agree and don't separate themselves into different denominations based upon their interpretation of their book then you need to open your eyes and look around. Stephen Seems to me that you've described just about every religion on the face of the Earth. The only group I can think of that seems to be monolithic are atheists. If you don't believe in God, then there's no quibbling. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
The worst Democrat President
Capt. JG wrote:
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message ... Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani [...] The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect? The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here. True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains that they all believe the Book. That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it. Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes to the Koran with the indigenous peoples. If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your ticket. Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans. Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers, Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course, utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more. Stephen T Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source: Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an 2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from Islamic belief in its revealed nature... Or: Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as God's final revelation to humanity. Or: Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God, said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself maintains. In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and unchangeable. My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far more convincing argument that you are correct. I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is *all* the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles sometimes, in metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There are passages in each book that are widely contested among each religion. This contention divides members of each religion into denominations, factions, etc. If you think that your country contains Muslims that all agree and don't separate themselves into different denominations based upon their interpretation of their book then you need to open your eyes and look around. Stephen Seems to me that you've described just about every religion on the face of the Earth. The only group I can think of that seems to be monolithic are atheists. If you don't believe in God, then there's no quibbling. Bingo. Here is a page describing roughly forty divisions among Islam. I'm sure those divisions also have their divisions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_Islam Stephen |
The worst Democrat President
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
... Capt. JG wrote: "Stephen Trapani" wrote in message ... Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani [...] The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect? The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here. True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains that they all believe the Book. That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it. Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes to the Koran with the indigenous peoples. If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your ticket. Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans. Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers, Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course, utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more. Stephen T Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source: Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an 2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from Islamic belief in its revealed nature... Or: Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as God's final revelation to humanity. Or: Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God, said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself maintains. In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and unchangeable. My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far more convincing argument that you are correct. I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is *all* the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles sometimes, in metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There are passages in each book that are widely contested among each religion. This contention divides members of each religion into denominations, factions, etc. If you think that your country contains Muslims that all agree and don't separate themselves into different denominations based upon their interpretation of their book then you need to open your eyes and look around. Stephen Seems to me that you've described just about every religion on the face of the Earth. The only group I can think of that seems to be monolithic are atheists. If you don't believe in God, then there's no quibbling. Bingo. Here is a page describing roughly forty divisions among Islam. I'm sure those divisions also have their divisions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_Islam Stephen I take it all back. I believe in God, but I'm an atheist. :) -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
The worst Democrat President
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:19:16 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani [...] The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect? The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here. True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains that they all believe the Book. That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it. Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes to the Koran with the indigenous peoples. If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your ticket. Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans. Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers, Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course, utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more. Stephen T Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source: Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an 2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from Islamic belief in its revealed nature... Or: Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as God's final revelation to humanity. Or: Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God, said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself maintains. In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and unchangeable. My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far more convincing argument that you are correct. I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is *all* the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles sometimes, in metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There are passages in each book that are widely contested among each religion. This contention divides members of each religion into denominations, factions, etc. If you think that your country contains Muslims that all agree and don't separate themselves into different denominations based upon their interpretation of their book then you need to open your eyes and look around. Stephen I can't believe that you are really as stupid as you appear to be. I have explained, even furnished you with references and at least one source to start your research, but you persist. I even suggested that rather then try and convert the uninitiated you go off and convert the believers but you persist. So, if you wish to sit in your cozy little world and believe that you are going to convert any significant portion of the world's Moslems to the belief that one of the basic tenets of their religion is some how wrong, because you say so, I suppose that is your business. Given that the present conflict in the Middle East is at least partially driven by religious bigotry I am amazed that you do not rush to the site as, if you are right, you will be able to solve a problem that seems to have confounded the rest of the world. By the way, I'd be interested in your statement that there are "are passages in each book that are widely contested among each religion" as it applies to Islam. Can you specify what sura you are referring to? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
The worst Democrat President
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:45:59 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote: "Stephen Trapani" wrote in message ... Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani [...] The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect? The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here. True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains that they all believe the Book. That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it. Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes to the Koran with the indigenous peoples. If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your ticket. Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans. Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers, Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course, utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more. Stephen T Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source: Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an 2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from Islamic belief in its revealed nature... Or: Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as God's final revelation to humanity. Or: Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God, said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself maintains. In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and unchangeable. My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far more convincing argument that you are correct. I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is *all* the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles sometimes, in metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There are passages in each book that are widely contested among each religion. This contention divides members of each religion into denominations, factions, etc. If you think that your country contains Muslims that all agree and don't separate themselves into different denominations based upon their interpretation of their book then you need to open your eyes and look around. Stephen Seems to me that you've described just about every religion on the face of the Earth. The only group I can think of that seems to be monolithic are atheists. If you don't believe in God, then there's no quibbling. The point that he fails to understand is that in Islam the belief that the Koran (Quoran) is literally the word of God is the basic of the religion. To contest the Koran, or to believe that the "Word" could be altered, would essentially, be to question that upon which the entire religion rests. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
The worst Democrat President
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:55:54 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote: Capt. JG wrote: "Stephen Trapani" wrote in message ... Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani [...] The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect? The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here. True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains that they all believe the Book. That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it. Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes to the Koran with the indigenous peoples. If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your ticket. Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans. Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers, Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course, utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more. Stephen T Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source: Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an 2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from Islamic belief in its revealed nature... Or: Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as God's final revelation to humanity. Or: Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God, said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself maintains. In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and unchangeable. My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far more convincing argument that you are correct. I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is *all* the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles sometimes, in metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There are passages in each book that are widely contested among each religion. This contention divides members of each religion into denominations, factions, etc. If you think that your country contains Muslims that all agree and don't separate themselves into different denominations based upon their interpretation of their book then you need to open your eyes and look around. Stephen Seems to me that you've described just about every religion on the face of the Earth. The only group I can think of that seems to be monolithic are atheists. If you don't believe in God, then there's no quibbling. Bingo. Here is a page describing roughly forty divisions among Islam. I'm sure those divisions also have their divisions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_Islam Stephen Yes, Stephen, I am aware that there are divisions amount the Faithful but even you, an Infidel, can read. Stop! Go back and read it again. Nowhere does it say that this or that group disagrees with the words in the Koran. As the most common example: The two major divisions of Islam are the Sunni's and the Shiaa who disagree, not about the Koran, but about who the successor to Muhammad should have been. Now, I have knows Sunni and Shia Moslems in Indonesia and I can assure you that both venerate the Koran. Both keep the Koran on a high shelf in their homes; both kiss the book or place it to their forehead before opening. Your assertion that you are going to get Moslems to agree to a change in the words or meaning of the Book is based on a lack of knowledge of the religion. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
The worst Democrat President
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:55:54 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Capt. JG wrote: "Stephen Trapani" wrote in message ... Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani [...] The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect? The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here. True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains that they all believe the Book. That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it. Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes to the Koran with the indigenous peoples. If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your ticket. Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans. Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers, Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course, utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more. Stephen T Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source: Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an 2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from Islamic belief in its revealed nature... Or: Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as God's final revelation to humanity. Or: Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God, said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself maintains. In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and unchangeable. My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far more convincing argument that you are correct. I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is *all* the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles sometimes, in metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There are passages in each book that are widely contested among each religion. This contention divides members of each religion into denominations, factions, etc. If you think that your country contains Muslims that all agree and don't separate themselves into different denominations based upon their interpretation of their book then you need to open your eyes and look around. Stephen Seems to me that you've described just about every religion on the face of the Earth. The only group I can think of that seems to be monolithic are atheists. If you don't believe in God, then there's no quibbling. Bingo. Here is a page describing roughly forty divisions among Islam. I'm sure those divisions also have their divisions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_Islam Stephen Yes, Stephen, I am aware that there are divisions amount the Faithful but even you, an Infidel, can read. Stop! Go back and read it again. Nowhere does it say that this or that group disagrees with the words in the Koran. They disagree about what the words mean, obviously. This is what I have been saying over and over but apparently you have a blind spot about it for some reason and refuse to understand. As the most common example: The two major divisions of Islam are the Sunni's and the Shiaa who disagree, not about the Koran, but about who the successor to Muhammad should have been. Now, I have knows Sunni and Shia Moslems in Indonesia and I can assure you that both venerate the Koran. Both keep the Koran on a high shelf in their homes; both kiss the book or place it to their forehead before opening. Your assertion that you are going to get Moslems to agree to a change in the words or meaning of the Book is based on a lack of knowledge of the religion. Cheers, Okay, this stuff is obviously way over your head and it's pointless to keep trying to help you understand. I never said anyone should change the words in the book, just that all religions have disagreements about what the words in their book mean. I gave you a reference that pointed out more than forty different divisions within Islam, but apparently this went right over your head. Maybe you are so unfamiliar with religion that you don't realize why and how these divisions exist. If you are ever curious, simply go back over what I have said in this thread and you'll find the explanation. Stephen |
The worst Democrat President
Bruce In Bangkok wrote in
: Now, I have knows Sunni and Shia Moslems in Indonesia and I can assure you that both venerate the Koran. Both keep the Koran on a high shelf in their homes; both kiss the book or place it to their forehead before opening. Your assertion that you are going to get Moslems to agree to a change in the words or meaning of the Book is based on a lack of knowledge of the religion. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) How can they know anything about Moslems when they are sequestered most of their lives in Jewish enclaves, brainwashed by the Rabbis in Jewish Schools and all but ostracized if one of them falls in love with a blonde honey from Sweden and goes off an marries her? Noone who lives in a completely closed society like that, and told that everyone outside that society is evil and it's their DUTY to kill them....can know anything about anything outside that tiny sphere....EXCEPT what they read in the HEAVILY FILTERED books? The most stunning effects I can remember about these people brought up in the vacuum of their enclaves is an interview Richard Dawkins did for one of his atheist movies. He met with British Rabbis that were born in England, raised in England, educated in England and had lived in England their whole lives. But, you would have never known these rabbis were English people! They spoke with the Jewish accent of Israel that's spoken in their sealed little world in London. They don't sound like any Englishmen of any class, at all! Simply amazing they can be so isolated from British society and it's easily recognizable accents..... |
The worst Democrat President
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:17:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:55:54 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Capt. JG wrote: "Stephen Trapani" wrote in message ... Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani [...] The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect? The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here. True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains that they all believe the Book. That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it. Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes to the Koran with the indigenous peoples. If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your ticket. Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans. Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers, Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course, utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more. Stephen T Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source: Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an 2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from Islamic belief in its revealed nature... Or: Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as God's final revelation to humanity. Or: Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God, said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself maintains. In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and unchangeable. My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far more convincing argument that you are correct. I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is *all* the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles sometimes, in metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There are passages in each book that are widely contested among each religion. This contention divides members of each religion into denominations, factions, etc. If you think that your country contains Muslims that all agree and don't separate themselves into different denominations based upon their interpretation of their book then you need to open your eyes and look around. Stephen Seems to me that you've described just about every religion on the face of the Earth. The only group I can think of that seems to be monolithic are atheists. If you don't believe in God, then there's no quibbling. Bingo. Here is a page describing roughly forty divisions among Islam. I'm sure those divisions also have their divisions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_Islam Stephen Yes, Stephen, I am aware that there are divisions amount the Faithful but even you, an Infidel, can read. Stop! Go back and read it again. Nowhere does it say that this or that group disagrees with the words in the Koran. They disagree about what the words mean, obviously. This is what I have been saying over and over but apparently you have a blind spot about it for some reason and refuse to understand. As the most common example: The two major divisions of Islam are the Sunni's and the Shiaa who disagree, not about the Koran, but about who the successor to Muhammad should have been. Now, I have knows Sunni and Shia Moslems in Indonesia and I can assure you that both venerate the Koran. Both keep the Koran on a high shelf in their homes; both kiss the book or place it to their forehead before opening. Your assertion that you are going to get Moslems to agree to a change in the words or meaning of the Book is based on a lack of knowledge of the religion. Cheers, Okay, this stuff is obviously way over your head and it's pointless to keep trying to help you understand. I never said anyone should change the words in the book, just that all religions have disagreements about what the words in their book mean. I gave you a reference that pointed out more than forty different divisions within Islam, but apparently this went right over your head. Maybe you are so unfamiliar with religion that you don't realize why and how these divisions exist. If you are ever curious, simply go back over what I have said in this thread and you'll find the explanation. Stephen You keep insisting that the Moslems will somehow agree to change the meaning of things stated in the Koran and you even post a reference a Wiki reference to divisions in Islam, which I read. But nowhere in the reference you produced does it mention that any of the dissenting groups are interpreting the Koran differently and in fact the only "true Koran" is the Arabic language version, not any of the various authorized translations. But, this discussion is going nowhere. I lived in Indonesia for more then 20 years and during some periods as the only foreigner in a hundred kilometers, isolation. As I was usually either a supervisor of staffs of Moslems or, in some cases living in Moslem environments it behooved me to know something about the predominate religion in the area so I did study Islam and while I am not learned enough the call myself an Imam I certainly learned the basics, and more importantly, how the people themselves regard their religion and quite simply your assertion that the Koran would/could be interpreted to mean something different would regarded as the gravest heresy throughout the country and by any of the various Moslem sects that live there. You, obviously, have never been in close contact with Islam and frankly, don't know what you are talking about in this instance, so any effort expended to attempt to educate you regarding Islam is obviously doomed. I can only repeat my suggestion that you journey to any Islamic country and convince the inhabitants that the words of Muhammad (blessed be his name) can/should be interpreted and report back. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
The worst Democrat President
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
As I was usually either a supervisor of staffs of Moslems or, in some cases living in Moslem environments it behooved me to know something about the predominate religion in the area so I did study Islam and while I am not learned enough the call myself an Imam I certainly learned the basics, and more importantly, how the people themselves regard their religion and quite simply your assertion that the Koran would/could be interpreted to mean something different would regarded as the gravest heresy throughout the country and by any of the various Moslem sects that live there. So you studied Islam and never new this: From: http://uk.encarta.msn.com/encycloped...364/Koran.html "The tradition of tafsir has often reflected divergences and trends within Islam. Shiite interpretation of particular verses (of the Koran) has often differed radically from that of the Sunnis, finding, for instance, references to the special status of Ali ibn Abi Talib and the Imams in the Koranic verses. In recent times both reforming “modernists” and “fundamentalists” have interpreted the text in ways which conform with their own viewpoints. Some have sought to show that the Koran is not only in conformity with many of the ideas of modern science but actually prefigures them. It is the often opaque nature of the Koranic text itself which makes such divergent approaches possible." I'll call your attention to the last sentence in particular, which pretty much echoes what I said about all religions' Holy Books. You, obviously, have never been in close contact with Islam and frankly, don't know what you are talking about in this instance, so any effort expended to attempt to educate you regarding Islam is obviously doomed. What does it mean that someone who, as you say, has never been in close contact with Islam, can know far more about this fundamental aspect of it than you do? Stephen |
The worst Democrat President
On 5-Jan-2009, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: You didn't read the article? It specifically states that houses built by Jimmy Carter personally - he worked on them in other words, pounding nails, etc. - were falling apart. Duh! You are overlooking the good part of that news...as long as the Carter clown is pounding nails, he's not sucking up to dicktaters and terrorists! |
The worst Democrat President
"Steve" wrote in message ... On 5-Jan-2009, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: You didn't read the article? It specifically states that houses built by Jimmy Carter personally - he worked on them in other words, pounding nails, etc. - were falling apart. Duh! You are overlooking the good part of that news...as long as the Carter clown is pounding nails, he's not sucking up to dicktaters and terrorists! Who needs Carter anymore? 53% of the idiot voters have elected Obama to do that exact thing now. Wilbur Hubbard |
The worst Democrat President
Stephen Trapani wrote in news:ivAcl.26955
: msn.com You stupid ass. MSN is just like asking a rabbi for facts.... |
The worst Democrat President
"Steve" wrote in message ... On 5-Jan-2009, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: You didn't read the article? It specifically states that houses built by Jimmy Carter personally - he worked on them in other words, pounding nails, etc. - were falling apart. Duh! You are overlooking the good part of that news...as long as the Carter clown is pounding nails, he's not sucking up to dicktaters and terrorists! Your boy in action: http://www.flickr.com/photos/911review/293457625/ |
The worst Democrat President
"Steve" wrote in message ... On 5-Jan-2009, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: You didn't read the article? It specifically states that houses built by Jimmy Carter personally - he worked on them in other words, pounding nails, etc. - were falling apart. Duh! You are overlooking the good part of that news...as long as the Carter clown is pounding nails, he's not sucking up to dicktaters and terrorists! I should have mentioned daddy Bush's ties the bin Ladin family through the Carlyle Group. |
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