On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:51:03 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got.
It was suggested that one can do their own survey.
Let's eliminate boat newbies. They need a surveyor.
I always buy used cars. I never take them to a mechanic, because I
know my used cars. I trust myself. I never burned myself once I knew
used cars. When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons.
That's why I learned all about used cars.
I don't expect others to follow my path with cars.
But a sailor is different than a typical car driver.
His life relies on his transport. His boat.
An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself -
maybe. Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an
experienced sailor.
But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've
gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many
writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and
rot than the typical surveyor.
Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor
typically do a compression test and oil analysis?
Does he check all engine linkages?
Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do.
Does he point out a sail tear you can't see?
Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust
that you can't see?
Tell you something about rope you don't know?
Does he do anything WON'T do before you cast off?
Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot?
Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection?
Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get?
The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part
of the mortgage requirements some years ago. The guy couldn't tell
me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed
plenty I saw. Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to
me no doubt.
Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here.
Might learn something.


Wilbur was right in one respect about surveys: There is probably a
certain price point where it doesn't make sense, but that has nothing
to do with the length of the boat, more to do with its age and
condition. On the other hand a free boat can sometimes be the most
expensive one of all.

A good surveyor looks at more boats in a year than most people will in
a lifetime. Ideally you will find a surveyor with experience with
the type of boat you are interested in, and know its strengths and
weaknesses. I have always learned something from every survey that
I've ever had done, and have saved quite a bit of money as a result.
The survey report serves as the starting point for price
re-negotiation, almost always more than paying for itself. Very few
owners will renegotiate the selling price unless you can document your
issues with a written survey report.

The survey also gives you a cooling off period between your original
offer and the point where you are 100% committed to the deal. If the
purchase contract is properly written you can reject the boat for any
reason, "subject to survey and sea trial", with no obligation other
than the cost of the survey and haul out.

On larger boats it is common to have two surveyors: One for the boat
itself, and one for the engines. The engine surveyor will perform
compression testing if applicable, come along for the sea trial, and
usually perform an oil analysis.

Last but not least, many insurance companies will not issue a policy
without a recent survey.

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:52:37 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:



Wilbur was right in one respect about surveys: There is probably a
certain price point where it doesn't make sense, but that has nothing
to do with the length of the boat, more to do with its age and
condition. On the other hand a free boat can sometimes be the most
expensive one of all.

A good surveyor looks at more boats in a year than most people will in
a lifetime. Ideally you will find a surveyor with experience with
the type of boat you are interested in, and know its strengths and
weaknesses. I have always learned something from every survey that
I've ever had done, and have saved quite a bit of money as a result.
The survey report serves as the starting point for price
re-negotiation, almost always more than paying for itself. Very few
owners will renegotiate the selling price unless you can document your
issues with a written survey report.

The survey also gives you a cooling off period between your original
offer and the point where you are 100% committed to the deal. If the
purchase contract is properly written you can reject the boat for any
reason, "subject to survey and sea trial", with no obligation other
than the cost of the survey and haul out.

On larger boats it is common to have two surveyors: One for the boat
itself, and one for the engines. The engine surveyor will perform
compression testing if applicable, come along for the sea trial, and
usually perform an oil analysis.

Last but not least, many insurance companies will not issue a policy
without a recent survey.

Informative. Thanks.

--Vic

On Nov 23, 2:52�pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:51:03 -0600, Vic Smith





wrote:
Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got.
It was suggested that one can do their own survey.
Let's eliminate boat newbies. �They need a surveyor.
I always buy used cars. �I never take them to a mechanic, because I
know my used cars. �I trust myself. �I never burned myself once I knew
used cars. �When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons.
That's why I learned all about used cars.
I don't expect others to follow my path with cars.
But a sailor is different than a typical car driver.
His life relies on his transport. �His boat.
An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself -
maybe. �Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an
experienced sailor.
But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've
gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many
writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and
rot than the typical surveyor.
Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor
typically do a compression test and oil analysis?
Does he check all engine linkages?
Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do.
Does he point out a sail tear you can't see?
Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust
that you can't see?
Tell you something about rope you don't know?
Does he do anything WON'T do before you cast off?
Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot?
Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection?
Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get?
The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part
of the mortgage requirements some years ago. �The guy couldn't tell
me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed
plenty I saw. �Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to
me no doubt.
Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here.
Might learn something.

Wilbur was right in one respect about surveys: �There is probably a
certain price point where it doesn't make sense, but that has nothing
to do with the length of the boat, more to do with its age and
condition. � On the other hand a free boat can sometimes be the most
expensive one of all.

A good surveyor looks at more boats in a year than most people will in
a lifetime. � Ideally you will find a surveyor with experience with
the type of boat you are interested in, and know its strengths and
weaknesses. �I have always learned something from every survey that
I've ever had done, and have saved quite a bit of money as a result.
The survey report serves as the starting point for price
re-negotiation, almost always more than paying for itself. � Very few
owners will renegotiate the selling price unless you can document your
issues with a written survey report.

The survey also gives you a cooling off period between your original
offer and the point where you are 100% committed to the deal. � If the
purchase contract is properly written you can reject the boat for any
reason, "subject to survey and sea trial", with no obligation other
than the cost of the survey and haul out.

On larger boats it is common to have two surveyors: �One for the boat
itself, and one for the engines. � The engine surveyor will perform
compression testing if applicable, come along for the sea trial, and
usually perform an oil analysis.

Last but not least, many insurance companies will not issue a policy
without a recent survey.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

because it looks like I started this you can see why I'm hereasking
questions

don't get me wrong I have problems just trusting anyone to spend a few
minutes checking something that I will spend days and weeks on tomake
right.

I think with the advise from those here I will get the knowledge I
need to make it sea worthy enough to enjoy the way I want.

I am thankful already for the info I have already gotten.

Mario

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:40:18 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:


because it looks like I started this you can see why I'm hereasking
questions

don't get me wrong I have problems just trusting anyone to spend a few
minutes checking something that I will spend days and weeks on tomake
right.

I think with the advise from those here I will get the knowledge I
need to make it sea worthy enough to enjoy the way I want.

I am thankful already for the info I have already gotten.

Mario

While it may be true that an interested and experienced buyer may do a
more thorough inspection than a surveyor, if the potential buyer has
"fallen in love" with the vessel, he will, perhaps unconsciously,
overlook faults that an impartial surveyor will notice and report.

The surveyor should be impartial - he should not stand to gain from
either encouraging or discouraging the sale. Some people claim that
you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by the selling broker,
just in case he may be biased towards encouraging the sale.



--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:48:06 -0800, Peter Bennett
wrote:

Some people claim that
you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by the selling broker,
just in case he may be biased towards encouraging the sale.

And that is absolutely correct. I go out of my way to find a
surveyor recommended by two or more people who have no interest in the
sale, and preferably do not even know the selling broker.

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:57:51 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:48:06 -0800, Peter Bennett
wrote:

Some people claim that
you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by the selling broker,
just in case he may be biased towards encouraging the sale.

And that is absolutely correct. I go out of my way to find a
surveyor recommended by two or more people who have no interest in the
sale, and preferably do not even know the selling broker.

That could be tricky, right?
Closed community and all.
Not that I'm paranoid, but I've seen "relationships" that
one might think don't exist among realtors/brokers/inspectors/sellers
That's in a wider community than boat sales.
In the end it seems a personal character check and trust is what is
left. In fact, that's how I find out about relationships!
Recommendations are good though.

--Vic

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:07:28 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:57:51 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:48:06 -0800, Peter Bennett
wrote:

Some people claim that
you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by the selling broker,
just in case he may be biased towards encouraging the sale.

And that is absolutely correct. I go out of my way to find a
surveyor recommended by two or more people who have no interest in the
sale, and preferably do not even know the selling broker.

That could be tricky, right?
Closed community and all.
Not that I'm paranoid, but I've seen "relationships" that
one might think don't exist among realtors/brokers/inspectors/sellers
That's in a wider community than boat sales.
In the end it seems a personal character check and trust is what is
left. In fact, that's how I find out about relationships!
Recommendations are good though.


On my last major boat purchase I used surveyors from 100 miles away
who had been recommended to me by a reliable source. It was worth it
to me paying their travel expenses knowing that there was little
chance of hidden relationships. I received invaluable advice from
them and saved $50K from the originally negotiated price.

"Wayne.B" wrote

On my last major boat purchase I used surveyors from 100 miles away
who had been recommended to me by a reliable source. It was worth it
to me paying their travel expenses knowing that there was little
chance of hidden relationships. I received invaluable advice from
them and saved $50K from the originally negotiated price.


Ah, we agree again. I should have read the whole thread first.

--
Roger Long

On 2008-11-23 20:57:51 -0500, Wayne.B said:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:48:06 -0800, Peter Bennett
wrote:

Some people claim that you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by
the selling broker, just in case he may be biased towards encouraging
the sale.

And that is absolutely correct. I go out of my way to find a surveyor
recommended by two or more people who have no interest in the sale, and
preferably do not even know the selling broker.

We asked around the dock and found a surveyor that gently suggested a
couple of times that the boat he was surveying might not serve the
needs of the buyers. The ignored him, but got better deals because of
what he found wrong.

Oh, and they later agreed with his assessment.

I'm told that's unusual behavior in surveyors. Some opine that doing
that is unethical, but *I* paid for his services, so he's working for
me.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

You'll note that doctors seldom treat their own family members.

--
Roger Long