On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:10:15 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 21:06:42 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:59:59 -0500, wrote:

We immediately struck
sails and tied everything down tight.

It's been my experience on several different boats that you are better
off with a double or triple reefed main and no jib. Having a little
bit of main sail up gives you far more control with only minimal risk
of being over powered. On boats with a very large main sail and/or
minimal reef points, a small staysail or storm jib might be the way to
go.

But then you don't have the mighty Yammie 9.9 OB to keep way,
do you?
Hey, just kidding.


I know you're kidding but you raise an interesting point regarding
outboards as a sailing aux. Because of the mounting location at the
far stern of the boat, outboards, even with a long shaft, are very
vulnerable to pulling the prop out of the water as the boat pitches in
big waves. This is not conducive to good motoring efficiency needless
to say and is tough on the motor as it over revs.

In a severe squall or gale however, even with an inboard aux, it
becomes difficult to bring the bow into the wind unless there is a
small amount of mainsail up to balance the boat. As the bow lifts
over big waves it catches the wind enough that the the boat is pivoted
off to leeward and no amount of power will bring it back up to
windward. We found this out the hard way in our very first squall
experience back in the 70s. Coming out of Long Island Sound just
after sunset and halfway to Block Island, we got hit with a real doozy
out of the west. The wind blew over 60 kts for the better part of 45
minutes. Waves built to over 10 feet in no time at all and we got
really hammered. There was no choice except to run off before the
wind under bare poles, making about 7 kts of speed as we surfed down
the waves in the dark, hoping that the storm would end before we
arrived at Block Island the hard way.

Friends of ours from Atlanta were onboard who were used to day sailing
on Lake Lanier. They kised the dock after we arrived safely. The
same storm spawned several tornados 30 miles further east blowing
large numbers of anchored boats aground at Cutty Hunk Harbor south of
Cape Cod.

By contrast we got hit with a similar squall in the late 80s going
north from Cape Cod towards Maine. There was a fair amount of advance
warning, so we battened everything down, took down the jib and put a
triple reef in the mainsail before it hit. The boat maintained very
good control about 50 degrees off the wind making a comfortable 1 or 2
kts in a safe direction.

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
wrote

(A terrifying account)

Wow. It sounds like no one should be sailing on LI sound, including you.
I had no idea it was the Bermuda Triangle of the Northeast.


Roger, on the other hand, my eldest brother sailed with Cap'n Zeb Tilton, on
the schooner, Alice S. Wentworth.
and was becalmed three days on Long Island Sound.

Leanne

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:10:15 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 21:06:42 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:59:59 -0500, wrote:

We immediately struck
sails and tied everything down tight.

It's been my experience on several different boats that you are better
off with a double or triple reefed main and no jib. Having a little
bit of main sail up gives you far more control with only minimal risk
of being over powered. On boats with a very large main sail and/or
minimal reef points, a small staysail or storm jib might be the way to
go.

But then you don't have the mighty Yammie 9.9 OB to keep way,
do you?
Hey, just kidding.


I know you're kidding but you raise an interesting point regarding
outboards as a sailing aux. Because of the mounting location at the
far stern of the boat, outboards, even with a long shaft, are very
vulnerable to pulling the prop out of the water as the boat pitches in
big waves. This is not conducive to good motoring efficiency needless
to say and is tough on the motor as it over revs.


Actually, it doesn't even take big waves. I've sailed a bit on a J-24
recently and a Santana 525s less recently. Both had issues in moderate chop.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On 2008-11-23 19:59:59 -0500, said:

My warning was whenj I looked on the western horizon and saw that
familiar (to me) low dark line. We had been loafing along in about 6-8
knots of breeze. We immediately struck sails and tied everything down
tight. Locked the lockers, clipped in, and donned lifejackets.

On the Chesapeake, if I see such a line, I have no pride. First action
is to throw out the anchor and at least a good 10:1 of rode, *then*
take care of the rest.

Got hit a couple of years ago with one squall line that pegged the
anemometers around us at over 100 knots for what seemed forever.
Something like 30 boats had to be hauled off the shore the next
anchorage down. (Still Pond, for those that know the area.)

Don't be a hero if you see a dark band of clouds coming at you in
Middle Atlantic waters. Get the boat tied to the bottom as soon as
possible, then take care of everything else. That level of winds will
overwhelm any motor, and it happens at least once a year.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Just to get this thread back on track a bit with some comments I expect you
will agree with:

The original question was the suitability of a then hypothetical 28 foot
boat for offshore conditions. Not to diminish the exemplary seamanship
demonstrated by Salty while facing the terror of some of the most dangerous
waters on earth, but, wind velocity is not the most significant danger
factor at sea. The low death rate on LIS and the fact that special types of
vessel have not been developed to deal with these horrendous conditions is
some evidence of that.

Vessels in heavy weather are generally worn down. Repeated stesses and
continued violent motion expose the weak points in rig, structure, and
systems. Fatigue sets in and the crew makes mistakes. Waves continue to
build Simply the length of exposure greatly increases the statistical
probability of encountering a freak or oddly shaped wave that rolls the
vessel or boards heavily. Three days of 30 - 40 knot winds can be far more
dangerous than half an hour of twice the velocity and four times the force
in previously normal conditions.

It takes a lot more vessel and crew capability to handle the grinding
stresses of weather that can be encountered on passages than even violent
squalls.

--
Roger Long

On Nov 24, 4:26�am, "Roger Long" wrote:
Just to get this thread back on track a bit with some comments I expect you
will agree with:

The original question was the suitability of a then hypothetical 28 foot
boat for offshore conditions. �Not to diminish the exemplary seamanship
demonstrated by Salty while facing the terror of some of the most dangerous
waters on earth, but, wind velocity is not the most significant danger
factor at sea. �The low death rate on LIS and the fact that special types of
vessel have not been developed to deal with these horrendous conditions is
some evidence of that.

Vessels in heavy weather are generally worn down. �Repeated stesses and
continued violent motion expose the weak points in rig, structure, and
systems. Fatigue sets in and the crew makes mistakes. �Waves continue to
build �Simply the length of exposure greatly increases the statistical
probability of encountering a freak or oddly shaped wave that rolls the
vessel or boards heavily. �Three days of 30 - 40 knot winds can be far more
dangerous than half an hour of twice the velocity and four times the force
in previously normal conditions.

It takes a lot more vessel and crew capability to handle the grinding
stresses of weather that can be encountered on passages than even violent
squalls.

--
Roger Long

I figured I would keep land in sight and hop from port to port every
evening and not even try to play in bad weather, but this is why I'm
here to learn, On a lake I'm sure I would have no trouble but I really
hope to be able to do a coastal trip.

wrote

I figured I would keep land in sight and hop from port to port every
evening and not even try to play in bad weather, but this is why I'm
here to learn.

Willingness to learn is a great contributor to longevity and happiness.

First lesson:

Rocks and even sand are harder than water so they do a lot more damage when
your boat hits them.

Waves in shallow water are much more dangerous than waves in deep water.

When the **** hits the fan, you can't always make the boat go in the
direction you want it to go.

One of the most famous by-words in nautical tradition is "Searoom". The
illusion of safety from being able to see the shore is a dangerous one on
most coasts south of New England.

I hope you learn better and faster than you appear to in the area of keeping
customers happy (even if they are wrong) from what I've seen posted. I
mention this only because there is actually a strong correspondence between
the attitudes and judgement required for a sucessful outcome in each area.
That gets into more philosophy than I have time for right now but let me
tell you, the sea is a lot less forgiving than a ****ed off lady with an old
VW.

--
Roger Long

wrote

What an overinflated, self aggrandizing, BOOB.


Now we're getting down to the nitty gritty. Salty is good at nothing if not
staying "on message" as they say in the political biz.

Roger's ego is so large that he actually stopped sailing for 15 years
because somebody hurt his delicate feelings.

And you know this how? Another typical fabrication.

For the record, I felt that I'd done enough sailing for this lifetime.
After a few years doing not much outside the house because of having a new
family, I became a private pilot and devoted the next decade to aviation.
Next to two wonderful boys, I thank my ex-wife most for prompting a return
to sailing and cruising.

The experience of flying has contributed much to my outlook towards
cruising. For example, line squalls nearly always kill you in a small
airplane as opposed to just scaring the **** out of you. You learn to pay a
lot of attention to weather and think ahead about what you will do if
something unexpected comes out of the sky despite forecasts.

--
Roger Long

wrote in message
...
snip
You once posted about why you stopped sailing for those 15 years. I
didn't fabricate it at all. I don't remember the exact slight that
beached you, but thats what YOU reported.


His diesel threw a rod. :-)

Wilbur Hubbard

wrote

You once posted about why you stopped sailing for those 15 years. I
didn't fabricate it at all. I don't remember the exact slight that
beached you, but thats what YOU reported.


Oh, you must be referring to this:

http://home.roadrunner.com/~rlma/Boats.htm#Tship

That was a professional decision having to do with boats that I design; not
what I do with my free time. The boys were already born at that point. It
had nothing to do with ego, slights, or beaching me. Typically, that is
what you made up out of your own mind.

--
Roger Long