I have a solution iI haven't used much lately, due to illness, I
haven't been sailing for a year and a half. I hope to be back at it by
the spring.

My head is a standard holding tank, deck pump out and port / sea
discharge valve. I can use a tire pump to pressurise the system via
the vent lines to purge it through the valve offshore. If no pump out
is available, I can purge the system via a probe inserted into the head
discharge from outside the boat at it's home anchorage in my cottage's
front yard into a floating oil drum which can be rolled ashore, dragged
to the pickup and trucked away.

The 12 volt tire pump trick is quick and cheap, especially priced next
to a macerator pump. I think it should be the essential base equipment
on any marine head system.

I was once thinking to initiate a mooring service where I could empty
several tanks and take the stuff away in the "stink dinghy." It would
be a premium service, I wouldn't want to do it cheap. Owners could
provide a vent connection to pressurise the discharge and a probe in
the discharge could allow unattended service with the boat locked up. A
special flag signal could be hoisted to request service. Coordination
could also be by cell phone appointment to accredited accounts. I
wouldn't want to maintain a vacuum extraction pump for this
application, and a properly maintained pressure system using low
pressure has been shown to work very well.

What would such a service be worth to youse all, on a commercial basis?

Seems to me that if the govt. can't enforce gas dock requirements for
pump out service, they shouldn't try to enforce use of a non existant
service.

One complaint of no pump out available should precipitate an immediate
raid by enviro-goons and a denial of gas service licence until it's
fixed. To keep operators nervous, a sign on the gas dock should be
required to provide the complaint number.

Terry K

Terry K wrote:
One complaint of no pump out available should precipitate an immediate
raid by enviro-goons and a denial of gas service licence until it's
fixed. To keep operators nervous, a sign on the gas dock should be
required to provide the complaint number.

Exactly the setup in California concerning free air supply for tires
(with purchase of gas according to the law) at all retail gas stations.
Idea is, soccer moms would rollover their Ford Explorers less if they
kept air in the tires.

Guess what, about a fourth of them are broken on any given day. Same
old story, "vandals" wrecked it, workin' on gettin' it fixed. Real
story, gas station owner ain't gonna fix somethin' that's not making
him money, to heck with the law. Guv'ment complaint number is a black
hole, as near as I can tell.

Gordon wrote:
cause across the Straits, Victoria still dumps all its raw
sewage in the Straits to the tune of 19 to 34 million gallons per day
(depending on which estimate you use). And this hasn't caused any
problems to anyones knowledge!

The environmental groups are having fits. It's an International Border
problem, Tijuana's municipal sewer system regulary belches raw sewage
into the Pacific through a drainage on the US side of the border!

Quaint town though, Victoria, compared to TJ.

After reading your explaination of heads, pump outs, y valves, hoses, tanks,
vent lines, etc.

I'm going with the BUCKET.
================================================== ===
One solution you may not have thought of is -- no head. Just a bucket
with a nice removable seat (available commercially). Suggest cockpit
use when privacy is available while crapping to limit cabin stink. Or,
if safe, just hang your ass over the side. Put a slosh of seawater in
first to limit skidmarks. Throw the sewage overboard when three miles
off, swishing the bucket overboard when done. Or, if safe, just hang
your ass over the side. There's a technique involved when at hull
speed. Carry a bunch of quality plastic bags which fit the bucket and
*can be sealed* for day sails and short harbor stays. Throw the used
bags out with your garbage; totally legal, think diapers. Compliment
the system with pee bottles, either throwaway bottled water bottles, or
a reusable sturdy one (with a larger mouth) of larger size drainable
into a toilet, etc. Five guys and a night of poker is about 2 gallons.
Gals can use a Jenny spout.
================================================== ==============

I will take out the head that is there. I have so many other spring
projects that the head will need to wait.

When I take out the head, the hose lines for intake and outtake will still
be there. Can I just cap them. I can close the seacocks, duh..

If I take out the head, and cap off the hoses, and close the sea cocks ..

Am I now ok with the Coast Guard?

ps;; where do I find this seat for the bucket?






"axolotl" wrote in message
ups.com...
NE Sailboat wrote:
Old sailboat, old head. No pumpout. Don't blame me, the prem[v]ious
owner
didn't do the change-over.

My experience is anecdotal, but I too had the old boat-old head
syndrome upon purchase. You will be popped by the Coast Guard if the
head isn't in a disabled state upon inspection, assuming you're boarded
less than three miles offshore. I'm a live and let live kinda guy, but
if you're using your head overboard in harbors, etc., you're part of
the problem, not the solution. There's scofflaws out there whose world
will change once local agencies start pilling everybody's heads,
something I'm in favor of. It really cleaned up Avalon.

Are you sure there's no room for a holding tank? I installed an
ornamental six gallon holding tank in a remote location, underneath the
forward berths. A translucent plastic tank allows seeing how full it
is without a complicated meter. I'd stay away from the flexible tanks.
Six gallons means only a few uses before the tank is full; main thing
is it passes the pill test. It's quite compact, but requires a small
vent hose leading overboard (perish the day you clog it with sewage), a
lot of expensive 1 1/2" MSD hose, and an on deck pumpout outlet. A Y
valve which selects between the throughhull outlet and the tank lets
you dump overboard where legal, and store the goo onboard while in
harbor. A hand operated Whale Guzzler diaphram pump mounted in a
locker in the deck outlet hose, combined with a short length of hose
jammed into the deck outlet and leading overboard, allows pumping out
offshore, although it's rather messy in a blow. I suppose you could go
nuclear reactor and plumb so you can pump overboard through the
throughhull too, complicated.

There's some considerations on how all the hosing leads, so it drains
properly and doesn't have low spots where sewage can collect. Peggy
can help out with the particulars. The Y valve location is an issue
around here; the Coasties don't want to see it where a toilet user can
reach during head use. Best is a location in a locker not in the head
compartment. A cable tie locking the valve in the tank position has
been acceptable the last few times I've been boarded, and some Y valves
have machine screw locks which take 20 turns to loosen, or of course a
*locked* locker, both also acceptable.

A big tank (30 gallons+-) would allow you to party for several days, or
two frugal types could go for a month, when the commercial mobile
pumpout service becomes viable. But that's a big tank suitable only
for bigger boats, and a lot of crap to have festering for a month.
And 250 pounds when full requires some bracing and has gotta affect
racing trim g.

Of course, carrying all that sewage around and the hosing, vent, etc.,
can create a stink problem. A partial solution is only pee in the tank
configuration, hold in that crap until you're offshore or walk up and
use the marina toilets. And if you do use it, do a thorough job at the
pumpout station; run several dollops of fresh water through the head
and pump them out too, so the tank, hoses, etc., are nice and clean.
There's magic eco-bio additives that promote digestion which may
decrease the stink if you "hold" sewage in your holding tank. Or tried
and true formaldehyde (banned in some RV campgrounds).

An alternative is a porta-pottie toilet, there are some nice ones out
there, but they're necessarily bulky and may not fit in your head
space. Also, disassembling and hoofing the poop tank ashore is a
burden (6 gallons = 50 pounds). Many marinas frown on folks dumping
porta-pottie tanks in their toilets; it's as if the Incredible Hulk
took a dump which causes major clogs. The marina my boat's at will
kick you out if you're caught. Dumping it overboard at sea is messy,
too. And they can stink.

One solution you may not have thought of is -- no head. Just a bucket
with a nice removable seat (available commercially). Suggest cockpit
use when privacy is available while crapping to limit cabin stink. Or,
if safe, just hang your ass over the side. Put a slosh of seawater in
first to limit skidmarks. Throw the sewage overboard when three miles
off, swishing the bucket overboard when done. Or, if safe, just hang
your ass over the side. There's a technique involved when at hull
speed. Carry a bunch of quality plastic bags which fit the bucket and
*can be sealed* for day sails and short harbor stays. Throw the used
bags out with your garbage; totally legal, think diapers. Compliment
the system with pee bottles, either throwaway bottled water bottles, or
a reusable sturdy one (with a larger mouth) of larger size drainable
into a toilet, etc. Five guys and a night of poker is about 2 gallons.
Gals can use a Jenny spout.

I'll jump on my high horse here and say that at least in this area, the
government's grand scheme to provide convenient pumpout stations
throughout the region has been a dismal failure, most of them are
broken at any given moment. The marina operators, etc., don't want to
pay to maintain them, claim vandalism is causing problems. The
commercial pumpout guys hate 'em, why pay for something you can do
yourself for free?

The bucket gets old, particularly for those without the ability to
stand to leeward. Portapotties are used, but I've done that and
hauling the tank for cleanout can be unpleasant as well. Telling
yourself or your guests to "hold it" will diminish your opportunities
to enjoy your boat.

Have you considered a LectraSan? My Pearson 323 came with one which
fits neatly under the V-berth and permits discharge in all but "no
discharge" areas. Waste goes from head to LectraSan (where it is
treated) and then overboard through a seacock (which is not that hard
to install). You can buy an older "new" unit on eBay with controls for
less than $700.

I'm actually contemplating turning my bow water tank into a holding
tank to receive the LectraSan-treated waste to give me the option of
not discharging even the treated waste when it is not convenient (don't
discharge where you sleep,etc.) The discharge line from the LectraSan
would have a T-valve to permit direct discharge or storage. I'd
convert the water feed line to a pump-out line, but also install a pump
to permit pumping out once past the 3 mile line.

The portapotties are the definitely the cheapest way to travel and they
will install rather easily where the head now stands, but I'd consider
a more flexible and permanent solution a higher priority.

Steve Hayes

Steve ,, I have been reading and reading all about ****. Don Cassey, This
Old Boat author, has a good chapter on the total
absurdity of marine heads, discharge tanks, etc.

If I read your post correctly; you have spent at least $1,000 and hours of
effort to take a ****!

And, now you have an even more elaborate plan to treat your ****!

I give you credit, you are deffinitely doing your part to save the planet.

Here is what I find wrong, or should I say, "not for me" with your head
plans.
================================================== =====
I sail alone. Single Handed. I very seldom ever have crew. When I do, it
is for a day sail.

My "once a day" poop isn't going to ruin the world's ecology. And, I hardly
ever do this onboard if I can avail myself of a public
restroom. I do pee, quite often. Right over the side. In fact, I have
pee'd and sailed, and pulled in sheets, and trimmed, etc all at the same
time. It is very enjoyable. But messy.

I take my old blue bucket, fill er up, and dump her into the cockpit.
Cleans up quite well. You'd never know I just pee'd all over myself and my
boat.

As of today, my whole **** budget is $20 dollars. That works out to:
1. bucket
2. seat for bucket
3. marine toilet paper, the kind that is environmentally safe. { did use
old wash cloth last summer, then dragged wash cloth through ocean }
4. one magazine, old copy of National Geographic with pictures of naked
African women.

Your boat must be very sweet. Is the LectraSan on the Pearson 323 one unit?
Or, is it a head and separate from the head the "treatment" facility?

I probably will continue to use "Old Blue" for the time being. I have a
bunch of project to do on my boat, hundreds of dollars worth. Make that
thousands. And at the bottom of my list, after sails, rigging, anchors,
deck, hull, dinghy, galley, navigation, electronics, ..... after a second
hand copy of Monopoly and a deck of cards .......... after at least ten used
books ............ after at least 50 old DVD movies .........
after cd's, after sailing clothes, way/way after mosquito netting,
............ certainly after VHF radio ..... and way after mooring
equipment ....
maybe .................. well could be ............................... I
don't know...

A head.

I have started to design a better bucket though. I worked on this last
night. After looking at a similar bucket to the one I have been using,
I asked myself "what would make this bucket more comfortable, safer, etc".

The answer is stability! What makes an old bucket different than the old
toilet/head which was on the boat? Stability. The old head; poop gets
mixed with ocean water and then gets pumped overboard. The old bucket:
poop gets mixed with ocean water and get thrown overboard. Both end up
floating by the very expensive Hinkley with the trophy wife who is about 30
years younger than the asshole lawyer she is married too. Ahah .. I have
accomplished a noble goal. My stink awash against that stinking Hinkley!

Take that big time asshole! Ya ...

Sorry,, where was I ..

Oh, stability. So, anyway. I looked at my bucket and realized I will need
to expand the bottom so that is will be a good platform. Since I will be
doing some epoxy work, I will use the extra to attach a wing, or bottom
wings to my bucket. The old bolts from the former toilet/head are still in
the floor. If I can get some sort of quick release I will use those. Even
if not, my wing will sit on top of the bolts and I will cut a hole in the
bucket wing so that the bolts are sticking up into the wing. Not attached
........... oh nooooo .. don't want to break the law.

I also am looking for a more substantial bucket. Last year's bucket was a
hardware store model. Flexability was a problem. I need a bucket with a
strong side. Did look at the Home Deport bucket. Maybe ?? I might take
two or three buckets and put one inside the other. This will make one
strong bucket. At the top I will pour in some epoxy and seal so that the
&*&*&* does not get down inside.

A wooden bucket wood be really neat. But where would I find one? I could
paint my boat name on the bucket.

The seat? I know you are wondering. I was going to use a cheap plastic
model but .... I found the answer. A hospital type seat.
I may use this as a template and carve a more comfortable seat. Put a
hanger on the bulkhead for the seat to hand when not in use.

Between my bucket (s) , seat, National Geographic, and all the music
...........

I may spend more time in the head than sailing.


Tally ho..


I will keep a "head's" up for you.















"steve_hayes_maine" wrote in message
ps.com...
The bucket gets old, particularly for those without the ability to
stand to leeward. Portapotties are used, but I've done that and
hauling the tank for cleanout can be unpleasant as well. Telling
yourself or your guests to "hold it" will diminish your opportunities
to enjoy your boat.

Have you considered a LectraSan? My Pearson 323 came with one which
fits neatly under the V-berth and permits discharge in all but "no
discharge" areas. Waste goes from head to LectraSan (where it is
treated) and then overboard through a seacock (which is not that hard
to install). You can buy an older "new" unit on eBay with controls for
less than $700.

I'm actually contemplating turning my bow water tank into a holding
tank to receive the LectraSan-treated waste to give me the option of
not discharging even the treated waste when it is not convenient (don't
discharge where you sleep,etc.) The discharge line from the LectraSan
would have a T-valve to permit direct discharge or storage. I'd
convert the water feed line to a pump-out line, but also install a pump
to permit pumping out once past the 3 mile line.

The portapotties are the definitely the cheapest way to travel and they
will install rather easily where the head now stands, but I'd consider
a more flexible and permanent solution a higher priority.

Steve Hayes

I sail alone. Single Handed. I very seldom ever have crew. When I do, it
is for a day sail.

You have my sympathy. It must be a shame to have the Bristol 32 and
not be able to share it with someone, or to cruise weekends or longer.

Your boat must be very sweet. Is the LectraSan on the Pearson 323 one unit?
Or, is it a head and separate from the head the "treatment" facility?

I have a standard manual pump head/toilet, which (with about 20 pumps)
moves the waste to the LectraSan (a unit about the size of a large
battery (9"x9" x16")). I then activate the electronic control, which
mascerates and then activates an internal electrode plate which (in the
presence of salt water or brine), kills the bacteria in the waste. The
waste is pumped out the next time someone moves new waste in. My unit
came with the accessory brine tank (the former owners were on the
Connecticut River) as it needs the salt. If you are strictly sailing
on the Maine coast, all you would need is the LectraSan unit itself.

The new ones are now "ElectraSan" and apparently more efficient. All
are available from Raritan Engineering.

I'm not concerned about one guy taking one dump per day or otherwise
hanging off the rail; I'm concerned about the hundreds of people we
have on the coast who also have natural needs. Even with our tides, we
don't always have the natural flushing action that would permit direct,
untreated discharge. And nothing is less appetizing than floating used
toilet paper. I'm old enough to remember when we could not use Rockland
Harbor or Belfast or other areas on the coast because there were no
treatment facilities for humans or fish/chicken/etc. processing. I am
grateful as can be that our harbors are cleaner.

You may still want to consider the portapotty in replacement of the
existing toilet unit. Aside from the environmental benefits, it does
come with a comfortable seat and can be easily anchored. I had one in
the O'Day Mariner I had twenty years ago and it worked great for day
sailing. I'd hate to think of you falling off your bucket or suffering
an unintentional gibe while you're enjoying your magazine on the deck.

Steve

Sealand's "porta potty" works very well and is high quality. I had one
on my boat for awhile when I bought it until I could get the sanitation
system up to snuff. You can even hook it up to a deck pumpout later if
you desire, but it's not necessary. I'd remove the one you have now and
sell it, and apply the funds to getting one of those.

As far as the bucket solution... if you go that way, be sure it's
secured so it doesn't tip over! Yuk.

steve_hayes_maine wrote:

Have you considered a LectraSan? My Pearson 323 came with one which
fits neatly under the V-berth and permits discharge in all but "no
discharge" areas. Waste goes from head to LectraSan (where it is
treated) and then overboard through a seacock (which is not that hard
to install). You can buy an older "new" unit on eBay with controls for
less than $700.

I wouldn't touch one on eBay...most of the so-called "new in box" older
units are so old that the motors will no longer work or the controller
is obsolete--no parts still available, or is missing parts, or the
seller ran it dry to "test" it and destroyed the electrode pack by doing
that. 99% of the Lectra/Sans sold on eBay would cost more to get them to
work again than the price of a new one.

I'm actually contemplating turning my bow water tank into a holding
tank to receive the LectraSan-treated waste to give me the option of
not discharging even the treated waste when it is not convenient (don't
discharge where you sleep,etc.)

No reason not to discharge treated waste from a Lectra/San in an
anchorage or even in the slip. The bacteria count is 10/100 ml (the
federal water quality standard for swimming is 200) and the waste is so
diluted and bleached that its unnoticeable to anyone except someone who
happened to be diving under the boat right next to the thru-hull.

The discharge line from the LectraSan
would have a T-valve to permit direct discharge or storage.

You DO know that once it goes into a tank it's no longer consider
treated waste...you'd have to be at sea beyond 3 miles to dump the tank
whether the waste was treated first or not.
--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Hey Peggie .. I can see steve sitting at his computer going "ah ****,
another good idea down the drain".

The world of waste.

What kind of LectraSan did Columbus have? Did Joshua Slocum have a holding
tank?

Where I sail, there are lots of fisherman. They clean the fish on this
table like thing as they are heading in. Where do they dump the fish guts?

That's right ... in the ocean.

And this isn't 3 miles out! More like 1/2 mile.

Don't dead fish guts make the water unclean?

While I try to do the best I can in the pollution department. I just think
the whole "business" is out of control.

The Federal Government is about the spend another $100 billion dollars in
Iraq. Yet ,, no money hardly ever gets spent on marine
facilities in my area. There is no public landing. No public clean out.
No public access. No public marina. Nothing.

I think I am going to name my new bucket "Baghdad"

Every time I go I will be ****ting on Baghdad. Makes me want to go already.

================================================== =====



"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
t...
steve_hayes_maine wrote:

Have you considered a LectraSan? My Pearson 323 came with one which
fits neatly under the V-berth and permits discharge in all but "no
discharge" areas. Waste goes from head to LectraSan (where it is
treated) and then overboard through a seacock (which is not that hard
to install). You can buy an older "new" unit on eBay with controls for
less than $700.

I wouldn't touch one on eBay...most of the so-called "new in box" older
units are so old that the motors will no longer work or the controller is
obsolete--no parts still available, or is missing parts, or the seller ran
it dry to "test" it and destroyed the electrode pack by doing that. 99% of
the Lectra/Sans sold on eBay would cost more to get them to work again
than the price of a new one.

I'm actually contemplating turning my bow water tank into a holding
tank to receive the LectraSan-treated waste to give me the option of
not discharging even the treated waste when it is not convenient (don't
discharge where you sleep,etc.)

No reason not to discharge treated waste from a Lectra/San in an anchorage
or even in the slip. The bacteria count is 10/100 ml (the federal water
quality standard for swimming is 200) and the waste is so diluted and
bleached that its unnoticeable to anyone except someone who happened to be
diving under the boat right next to the thru-hull.

The discharge line from the LectraSan
would have a T-valve to permit direct discharge or storage.

You DO know that once it goes into a tank it's no longer consider treated
waste...you'd have to be at sea beyond 3 miles to dump the tank whether
the waste was treated first or not.
--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304