On 29 Jun 2004 12:37:23 GMT, (William R. Watt) wrote:

Hollywood ) writes:

... 2] Bending a frame to
an arch isn't much of a problem but how do you bend it to match the curve
laid out by the intersection of the water lines and buttocks (i.e. the
angle described gets more acute the closer to the bow at the sheer but
will be flatter on the same frame close to the keel. This can be done on
a sawn frame by changing the angle of the bandsaw table as you cut the
frame). Thanks for any help, Frank

you get two burly boatbuilders with a big wooden mallet and bend the
frame in the hull.

note that in bend frames the grain runs along the frame, end grain exposed
only at top and bottom ends. in sawn frames end grain is exposed the
length of the frame. be sure to seal end grain well.

Thanks William

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:24:47 -0400, DSK wrote:

Hollywood wrote:

Hi All,

I'm considering building my own boat from a set of plans. It's nothing major, just a 28'
round-bottomed cutter.

Yeah, that's nothing major. sarcasm off
Sounds like a great project. What design?

Really? I didn't think a 28 footer was that bad. The one I'm looking at is a Mark Smaalder's
design called a Wynfall.



I know, build a dingy first to sharpen my skills, then build the big one. Problem is, life's
getting on and, with the reaper peeking at me from over the next hill, I'd like to get out and
do some sailing before he sits down with me.

In that case, you should buy a boat rather than build one... since this is heresy for this
newsgroup, how about building something smaller & simpler that will get you on the wate sooner?

I've been think about that too but I'm in a kind of dilemma on that.

I have a great functioning 8' Walker Bay that's almost indestructible, so I don't need a dingy.

I would like something that I could stay on board for a period of time (possibly 3-8 weeks or
more at a time) without feeling too overly crowded. That kind of eliminates a day sailer.

Glen L Marine has a 22' Amigo but there are only stock plans and after talking with them, they
made it quite clear that the plans are printed in stone, no changes, no modifications.

I found Mark's page and though he does have a smaller version available, I do like the lines
and the construction method of the Wynfall better.



I would try to buy one, but it would seem the rest of the world has never heard of a beamy
24-30 foot wooden cutter with a transom hung rudder and a full keel using lead as ballast. So
here I am.

Really? Where have you been looking? There are plenty such boats all around.

I'm in the Great Lakes area of Canada.

You can buy tupperware by the ton here but wooden boats seem to be in very short supply. I've
tried some boating sites (including Good Old Boat which does have some nice possibilities) and
tried to find online newspapers for the Canadian east and west coasts as well as Florida, but
finding a boat in the classifieds is just a little daunting.

If you have any sites, I would appreciate them.



I do understand most of the lines used in lofting with the exception of the diagonal. What
exactly is the diagonal supposed to show me?

The diagonal is supposed to show that the body plan is "fair" ie a smooth continuous surface,
hopefully capable of having planks laid along it without humps, shoulders, or needing to steam the
planks to the rigidity of week old spaghetti.

Now how does it show that? Is the diagonal at 90 degrees to the frame at that point? I guess
that's what is confusing me. The buttocks are parallel to a line along the length of the keel
and the water lines are parallel to a plane at the base of the keel and perpendicular to it,
but what is the source of the diagonal? At what point does it show me a fair hull? Both the
buttocks and water lines show some sort of profile where you could pick up points for the
frames to lay down on the lofting floor but the diagonals don't seem to show more than a point
at a specific spot.

If this sounds confused, it because I am.


While I'm at it I might as well ask about frames. The plans call for steam bent frames because
it is supposedly faster, cheaper and takes up less room than sawn frames. I have a few problems
with this. 1) Where is one supposed to get the clear wood for the frames,

From a lumber supplier that has boatbuilding wood.

There's Noah's in Toronto but it seems to thin out fast after that.


2] Bending a frame to
an arch isn't much of a problem but how do you bend it to match the curve laid out by the
intersection of the water lines and buttocks

Bend the frame tight against the inside of a set of ribbands.

?!? Shows you where I'm at. I was under the impression that the frames were bent on molds, then
placed inside the ribbands.

You need to sit down by the fireside with a copy of Howard Chappelle's book 'Manual of Wooden Boat
Construction.' He covers it all in detail, yet clearly. Be sure to read the part about needing a
Moaning Chair

Actually, I must be denser than lead because I have been reading Chappelle as well as Larry
Pardey (now that's the kind of boat I'm talking about) and while they both talk a lot about
diagonals, they don't really explain where they are getting the information to lay it down or
where the staring points are.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Thanks Doug

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:51:40 GMT, Jim Conlin wrote:


Thanks Jim,

Actually for $6500, it's not that bad. An outboard will work as well as the diesel and I could
get some interior space back.

To tell the truth, I don't go to eBay that often.

Thanks again,

Frank

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:29:31 -0400, DSK wrote:

Jim Conlin wrote:

In that size range, unless you have very unusual requirements such
as very high performance, icebreaking or heartstopping beauty, you
can buy a sound boat for less than it would cost you to build it.
For example, this Pearson Triton on Ebay.
Such a boat will afford opportunity for cabinetry improvements.

How about this one?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...3078 808&rd=1

Plenty to hold the interest of anyone who wants to learn boat
carpentry. Although, like most boats (and other things on Ebay) I
suspect it's badly overpriced. A boat this pretty, and this unique,
shouldn't be left to mulch.

DSK

Nice, but 58 feet is just a wee bit more than I care to handle.

Hollywood wrote:


Nice, but 58 feet is just a wee bit more than I care to handle.

S'OK, it's got the cabin of a 28-footer!



DSK

Hollywood wrote:

Really? I didn't think a 28 footer was that bad.

Well, I didn't say it was *bad* it's not a practical approach to getting sailing. If the goal is to
build a nice boat, then a 28 footer is likely to be more economical and attainable than a bigger one,
sure. Building a 28 footer from scratch is likely to take less time & money than say restoring an old
10-Meter starting with just a battered hull...

The one I'm looking at is a Mark Smaalder's
design called a Wynfall.

Not familiar with it... any links?


You can buy tupperware by the ton here but wooden boats seem to be in very short supply.

heh heh heh think about the reasons for that. It ain't that wooden boats are beeing carefully hoarded
by the Secret Elitist Sailor's Bund. I was going to suggest that if you really wanted an old-fashioned
boat, that there are a fair number of early fiberglass models that would suit you and provide an outlet
for plenty of labor... and you could go sailing in the meantime. Say a Cape Dory or Allied, or an older
(pre-1970) Pearson or Islander.


...
finding a boat in the classifieds is just a little daunting.

It's no picnic finding one in the real world, either. The internet is a tremendous aid in sorting out
the chaff. I happen to like Yachtworld and Boats.com which both have good screening search functions.
You can select only boats in a give area, of a given material (aluminum, wood, fiberglass, ferrocement,
whatever you fancy) and of a given vintage. If the pickings are too slim you can always widen your
search.

A problem is that the type of boat you are looking for is the type that is least likely to be listed on
the internet (although it is freakin' 2004, almost *everything* in the world for sale is listed on the
internet!) so calling around to brokers and boatyards may yield some prospects. I happen to enjoy
driving to boatyards and poking around the back lots, my wife indulges me a lot but oddly enough her
enthusiasm wanes after a bit. We found our current boat on the internet.



The diagonal is supposed to show that the body plan is "fair" ie a smooth continuous surface,
hopefully capable of having planks laid along it without humps, shoulders, or needing to steam the
planks to the rigidity of week old spaghetti.

Now how does it show that? Is the diagonal at 90 degrees to the frame at that point?

Not necessarily. Some are.

I guess
that's what is confusing me. The buttocks are parallel to a line along the length of the keel
and the water lines are parallel to a plane at the base of the keel and perpendicular to it,
but what is the source of the diagonal? At what point does it show me a fair hull?

It's not at a point, it's along a line... or more accurately, it is the plane intersection with the
hull along a non-normal axis. ANd this is exactly what you need to know if you're going to try & lay
planks along the thing.

It may be easiest to consider an already built hull. Let's take a long springy batten and lay it along
the hull... we'll hypothesize some extra long arms and extra hands to do this, keeping the batten in
contact with the hull at all points...

We can lay the batten parallel to the waterline at any place from garboard to keel, and the ends of the
batten will poke out past the stem & transom. We can lay it parallel to the centerline, so that the
ends poke out above the gun'l, this would be the buttocks. Now let's hold the batten at a skewed angle,
somewhere between the axis of buttocks & waterlines. We are using an already existing hull, so of
course it lays along smoothly. **BUT** if you are considering a hull that is nothing but lines on
paper, you don't know that yet! It is quite possible to draw a set of hull lines, frames & waterlines &
buttocks, that look great in these three axis but form ungainly humps or hollows, or even
discontinuous, along a skewed axis... and this will make it very difficult to plank. A smart designer
will lay out a set of diagonals to avoid this, and the smart boatbuilder lofts these diagonals as a
check on his mold stations.

I just finished lofting a 9 1/2 footer, and did two diagonals. It was a PITA... but I did tweak the
lines a little bit and it'll be better & prettier because of that.


Bend the frame tight against the inside of a set of ribbands.

?!? Shows you where I'm at. I was under the impression that the frames were bent on molds, then
placed inside the ribbands.

You could do it that way, but usually there are more frames than mold stations. Setting up the molds,
then laying on ribbands, then bending in the frames, allows more frames than stations. Also putting the
frames on the molds would create an offset from the hull plan to the hull skin.... most designers draw
what they want the hull to look like, not the shape of the inside of the frames. Designs intended for
wood construction often provide for "to the inside of the plank" which of course would be on the
outside of the frames.



Actually, I must be denser than lead because I have been reading Chappelle as well as Larry
Pardey (now that's the kind of boat I'm talking about) and while they both talk a lot about
diagonals, they don't really explain where they are getting the information to lay it down or
where the staring points are

Hmm, I don't have a copy of Chappelle handy right now but IIRC he covers diagonals about as well as
anybody ever has. The starting points are given along the base line for the hull lines plan. The
diagonals are dimensioned in the table of offsets and laid down with the rest of the lines.

FWIW there are a number of Lyle Hess designs similar to Seraffyn and Taleisin that were built as
production boats. They are usually pretty expensive unless in very crappy condition.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

John Holtrop wrote:
regarding the value of diagonals, they give the designer another set of
points, which are useful for evaluating the fairness of the hull,
particularly around the turn of the bilge.


See http://www.dixdesign.com/lofting1.htm about a third of the way down
the page (figure 1) for an example. The body plan (right side center)
shows where the diagonals are run, and the diagonals themselves are
shown below the waterlines. Generally, diagonals are positioned where
the curvature of the hull is significant (often in way of the turn of
the bilge). The additional offsets provide more definition where the
buttocks and waterlines do not provide enough points to clearly
determine hull shape. Note that the diagonals do not all have to have
the same origin (as the example shows).

dave

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On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 13:06:47 -0400, Dave Skolnick wrote:

John Holtrop wrote:
regarding the value of diagonals, they give the designer another set of
points, which are useful for evaluating the fairness of the hull,
particularly around the turn of the bilge.


See http://www.dixdesign.com/lofting1.htm about a third of the way down
the page (figure 1) for an example. The body plan (right side center)
shows where the diagonals are run, and the diagonals themselves are
shown below the waterlines. Generally, diagonals are positioned where
the curvature of the hull is significant (often in way of the turn of
the bilge). The additional offsets provide more definition where the
buttocks and waterlines do not provide enough points to clearly
determine hull shape. Note that the diagonals do not all have to have
the same origin (as the example shows).

dave


Thanks everybody for the info. I have now added Stewart to Chappelle and Pardey and I guess I
have some reading to do.

Frank