Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 

benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004
in article :

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

[snip]

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing
technology came from there.

How so?

In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere.

Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing
claim.

There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.

And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west?
Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge,
Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so?

See below, Ross.

And
who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of
these Canadian West Coast people?

You mean you don't know this?

Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had
described these things?

And then there would be the problem of
why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc
etc are of Austronesian origin....

Breathlessly awaiting your evidence.

Ross Clark

Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.

Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

Not ignorance, but ignorance of ignorance, is the
death of knowledge -- Alfred North Whitehead

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very east, their
sailing technology came from there.

and



There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.

Well, lessee... If the Canadian West Coasties came over the Bering bridge,
then it would make little difference to the Polynesian canoes if they were
directly from Asia, or if they were from S America by way of Bering, since
technology was slow to change in them days.

Steve "my 2 cents"

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004
in article :

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

[snip]

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing
technology came from there.

How so?

In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere.

Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing
claim.

There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.

And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west?
Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge,
Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so?

See below, Ross.

And
who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of
these Canadian West Coast people?

You mean you don't know this?

Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had
described these things?

And then there would be the problem of
why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc
etc are of Austronesian origin....

Breathlessly awaiting your evidence.

Ross Clark

Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.

Yes, I know you're chronically skeptical about linguistic evidence,
Yuri, since it almost never supports what you're trying to prove. Let's
just say in this case all the "suggestions" go one way.


Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)

This is it? Dear old Macmillan Brown? You were right to put "credible
authority" in quotes. But what does he actually tell us here?
The NW Coast people built big canoes. We knew that.
They resemble the Maori war canoe (JMB being a New Zealander). Hm. In
what way exactly? Besides being big canoes made by peoples who have
access to big trees? Is there some particular detail of their structure
that would lead us to conclude that the one must have been derived from,
or inspired by, the other? JMB does not say.
And finally they are "most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic
voyaging". Wait a minute. The Maori war canoe, as I understand it, is an
adaptation to lake and river travel (which were not an issue in tropical
Polynesia). It is used along the coasts as well, of course, but you do
not cross an ocean in such a vessel. When the Maori, in recent years,
have taken up oceanic voyaging, they have built themselves big double
hulled canoes. With sails. And what about sails on the NW coast? I was
struck by Cook's statement that the Nootka knew nothing of sails. Is
there good evidence for them being used elsewhere on the NW coast? How
feasible is it to get from British Columbia to Polynesia without sails?

Now that you've crossposted this to some other groups, perhaps we'll get
some useful information.

Ross Clark

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004
in article :

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

[snip]

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing
technology came from there.

How so?

In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere.

Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing
claim.

There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.

And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west?
Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge,
Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so?

See below, Ross.

And
who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of
these Canadian West Coast people?

You mean you don't know this?

Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had
described these things?

And then there would be the problem of
why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc
etc are of Austronesian origin....

Breathlessly awaiting your evidence.

Ross Clark

Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.

Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)

Oceanic voyaging was not done in a Waka Taua or a Waka Pinakaku..
It was achieved in Waka Hourua or the double hulled Waka Taurua...
And any or all of the above look nothing like the Canadian West canoes

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacificodyssey
 

benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004
in article :

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

[snip]

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing
technology came from there.

How so?

In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere.

Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing
claim.

There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.

And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west?
Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge,
Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so?

See below, Ross.

And
who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of
these Canadian West Coast people?

You mean you don't know this?

Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had
described these things?

And then there would be the problem of
why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc
etc are of Austronesian origin....

Breathlessly awaiting your evidence.

Ross Clark

Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.

Yes, I know you're chronically skeptical about linguistic evidence,
Yuri, since it almost never supports what you're trying to prove.

This is news to me...

Let's just say in this case all the "suggestions" go one way.

According to you.

Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)

This is it? Dear old Macmillan Brown? You were right to put "credible
authority" in quotes. But what does he actually tell us here?
The NW Coast people built big canoes. We knew that.
They resemble the Maori war canoe (JMB being a New Zealander). Hm. In
what way exactly?

Something for you to investigate perhaps.

Besides being big canoes made by peoples who have
access to big trees? Is there some particular detail of their structure
that would lead us to conclude that the one must have been derived from,
or inspired by, the other? JMB does not say.

It could be the carved bow and stern pieces, for example.

And finally they are "most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic
voyaging". Wait a minute. The Maori war canoe, as I understand it, is an
adaptation to lake and river travel (which were not an issue in tropical
Polynesia).

Your understanding may be wrong.

It is used along the coasts as well, of course, but you do
not cross an ocean in such a vessel. When the Maori, in recent years,
have taken up oceanic voyaging, they have built themselves big double
hulled canoes. With sails. And what about sails on the NW coast? I was
struck by Cook's statement that the Nootka knew nothing of sails. Is
there good evidence for them being used elsewhere on the NW coast? How
feasible is it to get from British Columbia to Polynesia without sails?

Now that you've crossposted this to some other groups, perhaps we'll get
some useful information.

Ross Clark

Same types of sail have been identified both in Canada and
NZ. Also, same type of double hulled canoes.

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

A great many people think they are thinking when they are
merely rearranging their prejudices -=O=- William James

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacificodyssey
 

George wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004
in article :

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

[snip]

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing
technology came from there.

How so?

In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere.

Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing
claim.

There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.

And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west?
Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge,
Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so?

See below, Ross.

And
who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of
these Canadian West Coast people?

You mean you don't know this?

Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had
described these things?

And then there would be the problem of
why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc
etc are of Austronesian origin....

Breathlessly awaiting your evidence.

Ross Clark

Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.

Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)

Oceanic voyaging was not done in a Waka Taua or a Waka Pinakaku..
It was achieved in Waka Hourua or the double hulled Waka Taurua...
And any or all of the above look nothing like the Canadian West
canoes

Your opinion only.

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in
nonsense than to put out on the troubled seas of
thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacificodyssey
 

carl wrote:

(George) wrote in message . com...
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004
in article :

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

[snip]

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing
technology came from there.

How so?

In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere.

Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing
claim.

There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.

And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west?
Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge,
Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so?

See below, Ross.

And
who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of
these Canadian West Coast people?

You mean you don't know this?

Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had
described these things?

And then there would be the problem of
why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc
etc are of Austronesian origin....

Breathlessly awaiting your evidence.

Ross Clark

Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.

Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)

Oceanic voyaging was not done in a Waka Taua or a Waka Pinakaku..
It was achieved in Waka Hourua or the double hulled Waka Taurua...
And any or all of the above look nothing like the Canadian West canoes

you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down
to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a
canadian canoe and they go significantly faster.

Those who have studied both types of craft disagree.

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in
nonsense than to put out on the troubled seas of
thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacificodyssey
 

Stephen Baker wrote:

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very east, their
sailing technology came from there.

and

There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.

Well, lessee... If the Canadian West Coasties came over the Bering bridge,
then it would make little difference to the Polynesian canoes if they were
directly from Asia, or if they were from S America by way of Bering, since
technology was slow to change in them days.

Steve "my 2 cents"

Hi, Steve,

If they were already sailors and fishermen, who lived by the
sea, why did they need the Bering Bridge?

They could have easily come by the sea skipping along the
coast.

The main argument in this thread is if the Canadian
aborigines had a direct role to play in Polynesia. I'm
arguing that the homeland of the Polynesians was Canada.

All the best,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in
nonsense than to put out on the troubled seas of
thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
 

Yuri says:

If they were already sailors and fishermen, who lived by the
sea, why did they need the Bering Bridge?

Maybe they were upland folks who finished up beside the ocean and thought "Gee,
why don't we build some boats like the folks back home had?"

Makes as much sense as any of the other guesses you anthro-geeks are making.
;-)

I'm arguing

True...

that the homeland of the Polynesians was Canada.

Any similarities between Polynesian boats and the Inuit stuff?

Steve