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Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
(carl) wrote in message . com...
(George) wrote in message . com... snip Oceanic voyaging was not done in a Waka Taua or a Waka Pinakaku.. It was achieved in Waka Hourua or the double hulled Waka Taurua... And any or all of the above look nothing like the Canadian West canoes.. you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a canadian canoe and they go significantly faster. Yup. Of course were Yuri asked he would be unaware of the significant differences that reserve the waka Taua and the waka Pinaku and the tapus involved! Go to http://www.koekejunction.hnpl.net/ hit the photo and almost at the bottom of the left hand side frame is the link to my Waka page. Any-one who can contribute other waka and their locations (if not already present) are welcome to email me with the details |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacificodyssey
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only _suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard physical evidence, such as archaeological. Yes, I know you're chronically skeptical about linguistic evidence, Yuri, since it almost never supports what you're trying to prove. This is news to me... Let's just say in this case all the "suggestions" go one way. According to you. And to everyone else who actually knows something about it. Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems like you still have a lot to learn in this area... "Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68) This is it? Dear old Macmillan Brown? You were right to put "credible authority" in quotes. But what does he actually tell us here? The NW Coast people built big canoes. We knew that. They resemble the Maori war canoe (JMB being a New Zealander). Hm. In what way exactly? Something for you to investigate perhaps. No, something for you to explain to us, since it is you who is putting this forth as evidence for your claims. Besides being big canoes made by peoples who have access to big trees? Is there some particular detail of their structure that would lead us to conclude that the one must have been derived from, or inspired by, the other? JMB does not say. It could be the carved bow and stern pieces, for example. Uh huh? Just the existence of such things, or their particular form? You can show that whatever it is is found nowhere else in the world? And finally they are "most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic voyaging". Wait a minute. The Maori war canoe, as I understand it, is an adaptation to lake and river travel (which were not an issue in tropical Polynesia). Your understanding may be wrong. It may be. Unfortunately your crossposting has not brought us any fresh expertise from among the boat-builders or the New Zealanders. And I know your understanding is no better than mine. It is used along the coasts as well, of course, but you do not cross an ocean in such a vessel. When the Maori, in recent years, have taken up oceanic voyaging, they have built themselves big double hulled canoes. With sails. And what about sails on the NW coast? I was struck by Cook's statement that the Nootka knew nothing of sails. Is there good evidence for them being used elsewhere on the NW coast? How feasible is it to get from British Columbia to Polynesia without sails? Now that you've crossposted this to some other groups, perhaps we'll get some useful information. Ross Clark Same types of sail have been identified both in Canada and NZ. Also, same type of double hulled canoes. Reference? Ross Clark |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
benlizross says:
snip Unfortunately your crossposting has not brought us any fresh expertise from among the boat-builders or the New Zealanders. snip a bit more Then FFS cut the cross-posting and leave us alone here in boat-building land. Here's a clue (from New Zealand, no less...): http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.p...22/arguing.jpg Tanx. Steve |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
carl wrote: snip you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a canadian canoe and they go significantly faster. Those who have studied both types of craft disagree. No. http://www.newzealand.com/travel/about-nz/culture/discovery-vintage-new-zealand/$profiles/hekenukumai-busby.cfm is as much a real authority on the Waka as its possible to find. The Canadian dug out http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/wa.../wad05eng.html resembles the waka in no way what so ever. The only claimant to the link between the canoe of Canada and the New Zealand waka is an Australian who quotes heyerdahl at length. A google search will lead you to those articles.... and, if you are -really- interested in the waka http://www.nzbooks.com/nzbooks/produ...vans0790007150 and Jeff will be only to happy to sell you his book... |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
carl says:
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message snip Ok you think they are similar in what way do you think they resemble each other? please share your experience in designing and using these types of craft And please, since you are still cross-postewd to a boatbuilding group, let's have some numbers to back it up like the Prismatic Coefficients, some reference to section shapes, displacement-length ratios, etc, instead of just some anthro-geek mumbo-jumbo about "they're the same length and they both float, so..." Thanks Yuri, Steve |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
Apparently on date 25 Jun 2004 19:21:31 -0700, (George) said:
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ... carl wrote: you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a canadian canoe and they go significantly faster. Those who have studied both types of craft disagree. No. http://www.newzealand.com/travel/about-nz/culture/discovery-vintage-new-zealand/$profiles/hekenukumai-busby.cfm is as much a real authority on the Waka as its possible to find. The Canadian dug out http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/wa.../wad05eng.html resembles the waka in no way what so ever. You know, I've never imagined that they were so different. A dug out canoe ought to resemble any other, initially, regardless of who built it and where. But the finishing off is quite significant and, as you say, quite differently executed. It's remarkable that Heyerdhal didn't even check to see if there were similarities between the two, in order to see that, actually, there are striking differences. |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
Martyn Harrison wrote in message . ..
Apparently on date 25 Jun 2004 19:21:31 -0700, (George) said: Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ... carl wrote: you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a canadian canoe and they go significantly faster. Those who have studied both types of craft disagree. No. http://www.newzealand.com/travel/about-nz/culture/discovery-vintage-new-zealand/$profiles/hekenukumai-busby.cfm is as much a real authority on the Waka as its possible to find. The Canadian dug out http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/wa.../wad05eng.html resembles the waka in no way what so ever. You know, I've never imagined that they were so different. A dug out canoe ought to resemble any other, initially, regardless of who built it and where. But the finishing off is quite significant and, as you say, quite differently executed. It's remarkable that Heyerdhal didn't even check to see if there were similarities between the two, in order to see that, actually, there are striking differences. This is always the sad thing about the heyerdahls of the world. Once they have an idea there is no shifting them. All the linguistic and genetic evidence wasn't enough to convince him And here, his devotee Yuri accepts the waka claim, without actually comparing the Canadian logboat and the waka stating his 'knowledge' comes from 'experts' in the field, who, when examined, have no expertise in the field..... |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
In article , Yuri Kuchinsky
wrote: Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only _suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard physical evidence, such as archaeological. the physical evidence is also fragmentary. consolidating that information into a historical theory is always a matter of conjecture, not proof as it might exist in other disciplines. don't be such an ameteur. |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
Apparently on date 26 Jun 2004 13:17:44 -0700, (George) said:
Martyn Harrison wrote in message . .. Apparently on date 25 Jun 2004 19:21:31 -0700, (George) said: Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ... carl wrote: you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a canadian canoe and they go significantly faster. Those who have studied both types of craft disagree. No. http://www.newzealand.com/travel/about-nz/culture/discovery-vintage-new-zealand/$profiles/hekenukumai-busby.cfm is as much a real authority on the Waka as its possible to find. The Canadian dug out http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/wa.../wad05eng.html resembles the waka in no way what so ever. You know, I've never imagined that they were so different. A dug out canoe ought to resemble any other, initially, regardless of who built it and where. But the finishing off is quite significant and, as you say, quite differently executed. It's remarkable that Heyerdhal didn't even check to see if there were similarities between the two, in order to see that, actually, there are striking differences. This is always the sad thing about the heyerdahls of the world. Once they have an idea there is no shifting them. All the linguistic and genetic evidence wasn't enough to convince him And here, his devotee Yuri accepts the waka claim, without actually comparing the Canadian logboat and the waka stating his 'knowledge' comes from 'experts' in the field, who, when examined, have no expertise in the field..... Quite. The puzzling thing about this, is the motivation. Clearly, a poster reads a book, a misleading one, and comes to a newsgroup where they present their opinions on some matter, opinions formed by the book they have read. These opinions are devalued by reasoning, extra information, etc. The proper response to this is: 1) as an absolute minimum, identify that the opinion(s) were, in the first place, mistaken. 2) react to this information, probably the most likely way is to squink out of it, by unjust logical games, etc. 3) or to accept the information and learn more (heck, this is usually no fun) 4) or to drop the debate rather than digging the hole deeper, and come back in with a different set of opinions (and possibly a different usenet identity). Possibly option 4) is the least loss of "face", 2) gets you labeled by most people (who aren't as easily fooled as posters like to imagine) and 3) is most likely the best way to build a good reputation. Option 1) is absolutely essential, failing to realise when you are wrong is a mental disease of some sort, either the issue is too difficult to understand (i.e. people who reject relativity do so due to not being able to understand it) or it is easy to understand and your own mind is deceiving you. Matters like are discussed in here, almost all fit the "easy to comprehend" category, so failing to achieve 1) comprehension of error, points to a very stupid or confused person. Options 2 - 4 reflect a persons attitude, possibly at the time, the less honest strategies are likely to be most common. One of the problems I can see, is a false belief in personal credibility. Someone may believe other people hold them in high regard. In this case, changing their opinion, however wrong it may be, would threaten a loss of credibility with these unknown lurkers. If that is how someone imagines things, they really ought to try smelling the coffee and reflect that opinion of the masses, generally follows the opinions expressed. If people in here, are not agreeing, chances are that this is reflected in the people who are here but do not (or rarely) speak. IOW, when you realise you are in error, the way you react, and what people subsequently say about you / your ideas, is probably pretty much a reflection of the actual reputation of you / your ideas. Putting this another way, if Yuri was agreeing with me, I'd have to sit down and have a good long think about what it is I have gotten so badly wrong. In the case of Heyerdhal, his "reputation" reflects book sales. This is a very real thing and his motivation is quite different, he is making money by doing what people want him to do. He isn't trying to do science. |
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