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Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004
in article : Yuri Kuchinsky wrote: benlizross wrote: Yuri Kuchinsky wrote: benlizross wrote: [snip] The mainland that the Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing technology came from there. How so? In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere. Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing claim. There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example. And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west? Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge, Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so? See below, Ross. And who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of these Canadian West Coast people? You mean you don't know this? Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had described these things? And then there would be the problem of why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc etc are of Austronesian origin.... Breathlessly awaiting your evidence. Ross Clark Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only _suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard physical evidence, such as archaeological. Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems like you still have a lot to learn in this area... "Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68) Yuri. Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku Not ignorance, but ignorance of ignorance, is the death of knowledge -- Alfred North Whitehead |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very east, their sailing technology came from there. and There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example. Well, lessee... If the Canadian West Coasties came over the Bering bridge, then it would make little difference to the Polynesian canoes if they were directly from Asia, or if they were from S America by way of Bering, since technology was slow to change in them days. Steve "my 2 cents" |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004 in article : Yuri Kuchinsky wrote: benlizross wrote: Yuri Kuchinsky wrote: benlizross wrote: [snip] The mainland that the Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing technology came from there. How so? In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere. Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing claim. There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example. And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west? Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge, Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so? See below, Ross. And who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of these Canadian West Coast people? You mean you don't know this? Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had described these things? And then there would be the problem of why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc etc are of Austronesian origin.... Breathlessly awaiting your evidence. Ross Clark Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only _suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard physical evidence, such as archaeological. Yes, I know you're chronically skeptical about linguistic evidence, Yuri, since it almost never supports what you're trying to prove. Let's just say in this case all the "suggestions" go one way. Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems like you still have a lot to learn in this area... "Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68) This is it? Dear old Macmillan Brown? You were right to put "credible authority" in quotes. But what does he actually tell us here? The NW Coast people built big canoes. We knew that. They resemble the Maori war canoe (JMB being a New Zealander). Hm. In what way exactly? Besides being big canoes made by peoples who have access to big trees? Is there some particular detail of their structure that would lead us to conclude that the one must have been derived from, or inspired by, the other? JMB does not say. And finally they are "most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic voyaging". Wait a minute. The Maori war canoe, as I understand it, is an adaptation to lake and river travel (which were not an issue in tropical Polynesia). It is used along the coasts as well, of course, but you do not cross an ocean in such a vessel. When the Maori, in recent years, have taken up oceanic voyaging, they have built themselves big double hulled canoes. With sails. And what about sails on the NW coast? I was struck by Cook's statement that the Nootka knew nothing of sails. Is there good evidence for them being used elsewhere on the NW coast? How feasible is it to get from British Columbia to Polynesia without sails? Now that you've crossposted this to some other groups, perhaps we'll get some useful information. Ross Clark |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004 in article : Yuri Kuchinsky wrote: benlizross wrote: Yuri Kuchinsky wrote: benlizross wrote: [snip] The mainland that the Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing technology came from there. How so? In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere. Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing claim. There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example. And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west? Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge, Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so? See below, Ross. And who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of these Canadian West Coast people? You mean you don't know this? Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had described these things? And then there would be the problem of why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc etc are of Austronesian origin.... Breathlessly awaiting your evidence. Ross Clark Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only _suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard physical evidence, such as archaeological. Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems like you still have a lot to learn in this area... "Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68) Oceanic voyaging was not done in a Waka Taua or a Waka Pinakaku.. It was achieved in Waka Hourua or the double hulled Waka Taurua... And any or all of the above look nothing like the Canadian West canoes |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
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Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacificodyssey
benlizross wrote:
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote: benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004 in article : Yuri Kuchinsky wrote: benlizross wrote: Yuri Kuchinsky wrote: benlizross wrote: [snip] The mainland that the Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing technology came from there. How so? In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere. Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing claim. There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example. And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west? Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge, Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so? See below, Ross. And who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of these Canadian West Coast people? You mean you don't know this? Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had described these things? And then there would be the problem of why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc etc are of Austronesian origin.... Breathlessly awaiting your evidence. Ross Clark Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only _suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard physical evidence, such as archaeological. Yes, I know you're chronically skeptical about linguistic evidence, Yuri, since it almost never supports what you're trying to prove. This is news to me... Let's just say in this case all the "suggestions" go one way. According to you. Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems like you still have a lot to learn in this area... "Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68) This is it? Dear old Macmillan Brown? You were right to put "credible authority" in quotes. But what does he actually tell us here? The NW Coast people built big canoes. We knew that. They resemble the Maori war canoe (JMB being a New Zealander). Hm. In what way exactly? Something for you to investigate perhaps. Besides being big canoes made by peoples who have access to big trees? Is there some particular detail of their structure that would lead us to conclude that the one must have been derived from, or inspired by, the other? JMB does not say. It could be the carved bow and stern pieces, for example. And finally they are "most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic voyaging". Wait a minute. The Maori war canoe, as I understand it, is an adaptation to lake and river travel (which were not an issue in tropical Polynesia). Your understanding may be wrong. It is used along the coasts as well, of course, but you do not cross an ocean in such a vessel. When the Maori, in recent years, have taken up oceanic voyaging, they have built themselves big double hulled canoes. With sails. And what about sails on the NW coast? I was struck by Cook's statement that the Nootka knew nothing of sails. Is there good evidence for them being used elsewhere on the NW coast? How feasible is it to get from British Columbia to Polynesia without sails? Now that you've crossposted this to some other groups, perhaps we'll get some useful information. Ross Clark Same types of sail have been identified both in Canada and NZ. Also, same type of double hulled canoes. Yuri. Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices -=O=- William James |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacificodyssey
George wrote:
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ... benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004 in article : Yuri Kuchinsky wrote: benlizross wrote: Yuri Kuchinsky wrote: benlizross wrote: [snip] The mainland that the Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing technology came from there. How so? In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere. Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing claim. There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example. And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west? Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge, Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so? See below, Ross. And who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of these Canadian West Coast people? You mean you don't know this? Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had described these things? And then there would be the problem of why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc etc are of Austronesian origin.... Breathlessly awaiting your evidence. Ross Clark Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only _suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard physical evidence, such as archaeological. Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems like you still have a lot to learn in this area... "Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68) Oceanic voyaging was not done in a Waka Taua or a Waka Pinakaku.. It was achieved in Waka Hourua or the double hulled Waka Taurua... And any or all of the above look nothing like the Canadian West canoes Your opinion only. Yuri. Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in nonsense than to put out on the troubled seas of thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacificodyssey
Stephen Baker wrote:
The mainland that the Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very east, their sailing technology came from there. and There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example. Well, lessee... If the Canadian West Coasties came over the Bering bridge, then it would make little difference to the Polynesian canoes if they were directly from Asia, or if they were from S America by way of Bering, since technology was slow to change in them days. Steve "my 2 cents" Hi, Steve, If they were already sailors and fishermen, who lived by the sea, why did they need the Bering Bridge? They could have easily come by the sea skipping along the coast. The main argument in this thread is if the Canadian aborigines had a direct role to play in Polynesia. I'm arguing that the homeland of the Polynesians was Canada. All the best, Yuri. Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in nonsense than to put out on the troubled seas of thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
Yuri says:
If they were already sailors and fishermen, who lived by the sea, why did they need the Bering Bridge? Maybe they were upland folks who finished up beside the ocean and thought "Gee, why don't we build some boats like the folks back home had?" Makes as much sense as any of the other guesses you anthro-geeks are making. ;-) I'm arguing True... that the homeland of the Polynesians was Canada. Any similarities between Polynesian boats and the Inuit stuff? Steve |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
(carl) wrote in message . com...
(George) wrote in message . com... snip Oceanic voyaging was not done in a Waka Taua or a Waka Pinakaku.. It was achieved in Waka Hourua or the double hulled Waka Taurua... And any or all of the above look nothing like the Canadian West canoes.. you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a canadian canoe and they go significantly faster. Yup. Of course were Yuri asked he would be unaware of the significant differences that reserve the waka Taua and the waka Pinaku and the tapus involved! Go to http://www.koekejunction.hnpl.net/ hit the photo and almost at the bottom of the left hand side frame is the link to my Waka page. Any-one who can contribute other waka and their locations (if not already present) are welcome to email me with the details |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacificodyssey
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only _suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard physical evidence, such as archaeological. Yes, I know you're chronically skeptical about linguistic evidence, Yuri, since it almost never supports what you're trying to prove. This is news to me... Let's just say in this case all the "suggestions" go one way. According to you. And to everyone else who actually knows something about it. Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems like you still have a lot to learn in this area... "Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68) This is it? Dear old Macmillan Brown? You were right to put "credible authority" in quotes. But what does he actually tell us here? The NW Coast people built big canoes. We knew that. They resemble the Maori war canoe (JMB being a New Zealander). Hm. In what way exactly? Something for you to investigate perhaps. No, something for you to explain to us, since it is you who is putting this forth as evidence for your claims. Besides being big canoes made by peoples who have access to big trees? Is there some particular detail of their structure that would lead us to conclude that the one must have been derived from, or inspired by, the other? JMB does not say. It could be the carved bow and stern pieces, for example. Uh huh? Just the existence of such things, or their particular form? You can show that whatever it is is found nowhere else in the world? And finally they are "most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic voyaging". Wait a minute. The Maori war canoe, as I understand it, is an adaptation to lake and river travel (which were not an issue in tropical Polynesia). Your understanding may be wrong. It may be. Unfortunately your crossposting has not brought us any fresh expertise from among the boat-builders or the New Zealanders. And I know your understanding is no better than mine. It is used along the coasts as well, of course, but you do not cross an ocean in such a vessel. When the Maori, in recent years, have taken up oceanic voyaging, they have built themselves big double hulled canoes. With sails. And what about sails on the NW coast? I was struck by Cook's statement that the Nootka knew nothing of sails. Is there good evidence for them being used elsewhere on the NW coast? How feasible is it to get from British Columbia to Polynesia without sails? Now that you've crossposted this to some other groups, perhaps we'll get some useful information. Ross Clark Same types of sail have been identified both in Canada and NZ. Also, same type of double hulled canoes. Reference? Ross Clark |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
benlizross says:
snip Unfortunately your crossposting has not brought us any fresh expertise from among the boat-builders or the New Zealanders. snip a bit more Then FFS cut the cross-posting and leave us alone here in boat-building land. Here's a clue (from New Zealand, no less...): http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.p...22/arguing.jpg Tanx. Steve |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
carl wrote: snip you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a canadian canoe and they go significantly faster. Those who have studied both types of craft disagree. No. http://www.newzealand.com/travel/about-nz/culture/discovery-vintage-new-zealand/$profiles/hekenukumai-busby.cfm is as much a real authority on the Waka as its possible to find. The Canadian dug out http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/wa.../wad05eng.html resembles the waka in no way what so ever. The only claimant to the link between the canoe of Canada and the New Zealand waka is an Australian who quotes heyerdahl at length. A google search will lead you to those articles.... and, if you are -really- interested in the waka http://www.nzbooks.com/nzbooks/produ...vans0790007150 and Jeff will be only to happy to sell you his book... |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
carl wrote: (George) wrote in message . com... Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ... benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004 in article : Yuri Kuchinsky wrote: benlizross wrote: Yuri Kuchinsky wrote: benlizross wrote: [snip] The mainland that the Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing technology came from there. How so? In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere. Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing claim. There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example. And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west? Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge, Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so? See below, Ross. And who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of these Canadian West Coast people? You mean you don't know this? Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had described these things? And then there would be the problem of why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc etc are of Austronesian origin.... Breathlessly awaiting your evidence. Ross Clark Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only _suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard physical evidence, such as archaeological. Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems like you still have a lot to learn in this area... "Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68) Oceanic voyaging was not done in a Waka Taua or a Waka Pinakaku.. It was achieved in Waka Hourua or the double hulled Waka Taurua... And any or all of the above look nothing like the Canadian West canoes you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a canadian canoe and they go significantly faster. Those who have studied both types of craft disagree. Yuri. Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in nonsense than to put out on the troubled seas of thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith Ok you think they are similar in what way do you think they resemble each other? please share your experience in designing and using these types of craft |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
carl says:
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message snip Ok you think they are similar in what way do you think they resemble each other? please share your experience in designing and using these types of craft And please, since you are still cross-postewd to a boatbuilding group, let's have some numbers to back it up like the Prismatic Coefficients, some reference to section shapes, displacement-length ratios, etc, instead of just some anthro-geek mumbo-jumbo about "they're the same length and they both float, so..." Thanks Yuri, Steve |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
Apparently on date 25 Jun 2004 19:21:31 -0700, (George) said:
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ... carl wrote: you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a canadian canoe and they go significantly faster. Those who have studied both types of craft disagree. No. http://www.newzealand.com/travel/about-nz/culture/discovery-vintage-new-zealand/$profiles/hekenukumai-busby.cfm is as much a real authority on the Waka as its possible to find. The Canadian dug out http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/wa.../wad05eng.html resembles the waka in no way what so ever. You know, I've never imagined that they were so different. A dug out canoe ought to resemble any other, initially, regardless of who built it and where. But the finishing off is quite significant and, as you say, quite differently executed. It's remarkable that Heyerdhal didn't even check to see if there were similarities between the two, in order to see that, actually, there are striking differences. |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
Martyn Harrison wrote in message . ..
Apparently on date 25 Jun 2004 19:21:31 -0700, (George) said: Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ... carl wrote: you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a canadian canoe and they go significantly faster. Those who have studied both types of craft disagree. No. http://www.newzealand.com/travel/about-nz/culture/discovery-vintage-new-zealand/$profiles/hekenukumai-busby.cfm is as much a real authority on the Waka as its possible to find. The Canadian dug out http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/wa.../wad05eng.html resembles the waka in no way what so ever. You know, I've never imagined that they were so different. A dug out canoe ought to resemble any other, initially, regardless of who built it and where. But the finishing off is quite significant and, as you say, quite differently executed. It's remarkable that Heyerdhal didn't even check to see if there were similarities between the two, in order to see that, actually, there are striking differences. This is always the sad thing about the heyerdahls of the world. Once they have an idea there is no shifting them. All the linguistic and genetic evidence wasn't enough to convince him And here, his devotee Yuri accepts the waka claim, without actually comparing the Canadian logboat and the waka stating his 'knowledge' comes from 'experts' in the field, who, when examined, have no expertise in the field..... |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
In article , Yuri Kuchinsky
wrote: Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only _suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard physical evidence, such as archaeological. the physical evidence is also fragmentary. consolidating that information into a historical theory is always a matter of conjecture, not proof as it might exist in other disciplines. don't be such an ameteur. |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
Apparently on date 26 Jun 2004 13:17:44 -0700, (George) said:
Martyn Harrison wrote in message . .. Apparently on date 25 Jun 2004 19:21:31 -0700, (George) said: Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ... carl wrote: you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a canadian canoe and they go significantly faster. Those who have studied both types of craft disagree. No. http://www.newzealand.com/travel/about-nz/culture/discovery-vintage-new-zealand/$profiles/hekenukumai-busby.cfm is as much a real authority on the Waka as its possible to find. The Canadian dug out http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/wa.../wad05eng.html resembles the waka in no way what so ever. You know, I've never imagined that they were so different. A dug out canoe ought to resemble any other, initially, regardless of who built it and where. But the finishing off is quite significant and, as you say, quite differently executed. It's remarkable that Heyerdhal didn't even check to see if there were similarities between the two, in order to see that, actually, there are striking differences. This is always the sad thing about the heyerdahls of the world. Once they have an idea there is no shifting them. All the linguistic and genetic evidence wasn't enough to convince him And here, his devotee Yuri accepts the waka claim, without actually comparing the Canadian logboat and the waka stating his 'knowledge' comes from 'experts' in the field, who, when examined, have no expertise in the field..... Quite. The puzzling thing about this, is the motivation. Clearly, a poster reads a book, a misleading one, and comes to a newsgroup where they present their opinions on some matter, opinions formed by the book they have read. These opinions are devalued by reasoning, extra information, etc. The proper response to this is: 1) as an absolute minimum, identify that the opinion(s) were, in the first place, mistaken. 2) react to this information, probably the most likely way is to squink out of it, by unjust logical games, etc. 3) or to accept the information and learn more (heck, this is usually no fun) 4) or to drop the debate rather than digging the hole deeper, and come back in with a different set of opinions (and possibly a different usenet identity). Possibly option 4) is the least loss of "face", 2) gets you labeled by most people (who aren't as easily fooled as posters like to imagine) and 3) is most likely the best way to build a good reputation. Option 1) is absolutely essential, failing to realise when you are wrong is a mental disease of some sort, either the issue is too difficult to understand (i.e. people who reject relativity do so due to not being able to understand it) or it is easy to understand and your own mind is deceiving you. Matters like are discussed in here, almost all fit the "easy to comprehend" category, so failing to achieve 1) comprehension of error, points to a very stupid or confused person. Options 2 - 4 reflect a persons attitude, possibly at the time, the less honest strategies are likely to be most common. One of the problems I can see, is a false belief in personal credibility. Someone may believe other people hold them in high regard. In this case, changing their opinion, however wrong it may be, would threaten a loss of credibility with these unknown lurkers. If that is how someone imagines things, they really ought to try smelling the coffee and reflect that opinion of the masses, generally follows the opinions expressed. If people in here, are not agreeing, chances are that this is reflected in the people who are here but do not (or rarely) speak. IOW, when you realise you are in error, the way you react, and what people subsequently say about you / your ideas, is probably pretty much a reflection of the actual reputation of you / your ideas. Putting this another way, if Yuri was agreeing with me, I'd have to sit down and have a good long think about what it is I have gotten so badly wrong. In the case of Heyerdhal, his "reputation" reflects book sales. This is a very real thing and his motivation is quite different, he is making money by doing what people want him to do. He isn't trying to do science. |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
(Backyard Renegade) says in
om: Simple, drop the "rec.boats.building" from the "send to group(s)" line and we would not have to read your psudointellectual BS in a boat builders group! Aren't boatbuilders at all interested in the welfare of loons. Here (sci.archaeology) you get a chance to see a whole cluster of loons, in formation. Many of you may never even get a chance to see the Swedish Greater Loon from close view, here you get to see our semidomesticated loon "Inger E" in close view, not to mention the "Yuri" loon and a few others. Think of the opportunity you are missing, ;^). -- Philip - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mol. Anth. Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DNAanthro/ Mol. Evol. Hominids http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/ Evol. of Xchrom. http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/xlinked.htm Pal. Anth. Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Paleoanthro/ Sci. Arch. Aux http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sciarchauxilliary/ |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
Philip Diet-Hiker says:
Aren't boatbuilders at all interested in the welfare of loons. Here (sci.archaeology) you get a chance to see a whole cluster of loons, in formation. Take it to alt.birdwatching.loons ;-) Steve |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
ospam (Stephen Baker) wrote in message ...
benlizross says: snip Unfortunately your crossposting has not brought us any fresh expertise from among the boat-builders or the New Zealanders. snip a bit more Then FFS cut the cross-posting and leave us alone here in boat-building land. Here's a clue (from New Zealand, no less...): http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.p...22/arguing.jpg Tanx. Yup. Down here in the Southern Pacific we don't know a lot about boat building. Well apart from building boats that won the Americas Cup twice and losing it to a Swiss team of New Zealanders. Having a multibillion dollar small shipbuilding industry. And as for sailing: well apart from the "Royal Akarana" and other sailing races and having an Offshore Masters certificate from my commercial fishing days I'm totally ignorant of ships :-) Oh and I better tell you that helping build a Mullet taught me nothing about boatbuilding ! Sheesh |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
ospam (Stephen Baker) wrote in message ...
benlizross says: snip Unfortunately your crossposting has not brought us any fresh expertise from among the boat-builders or the New Zealanders. snip a bit more Then FFS cut the cross-posting and leave us alone here in boat-building land. Here's a clue (from New Zealand, no less...): http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.p...22/arguing.jpg Well done Stephen. Must be proud of yourself having a go at the Special Olympics You have just demonstrated the sort of person you are.. The submarine service could do with your help They need deckhands ! |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
George says:
Well done Stephen. Must be proud of yourself having a go at the Special Olympics No, just using them as an example of how simple it is to make bad assumptions about others on UseNet, anbd how idiotic it is to argue with folks you don't know. Yes, the picture makes fun of the Special Olympics, which is not kind. My apologies. The analogy, badly put though it may be, still holds. Here we had/have two guys arguing, who in all likelihood have never met face to face, or spoken on the phone, each convinced he is right, and neither is ever going to convince the other of their fallacies. It will degenerate into a "he said" "she said" thing soon, and then there will be quiet for a while until someone starts another unprovable argument. So, what is the point of the arguing? Are you really going ot get a warm, fuzzy feeling if you win? Is there a prize (apart from the ego thing)? You have just demonstrated the sort of person you are.. The submarine service could do with your help They need deckhands ! And you have just demonstrated the sort of person you are. Nice job. Steve |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
George says:
Yup. Down here in the Southern Pacific we don't know a lot about boat building. Well apart from building boats that won the Americas Cup twice and losing it to a Swiss team of New Zealanders. Having a multibillion dollar small shipbuilding industry. And as for sailing: well apart from the "Royal Akarana" and other sailing races and having an Offshore Masters certificate from my commercial fishing days I'm totally ignorant of ships :-) Oh and I better tell you that helping build a Mullet taught me nothing about boatbuilding ! Sheesh Sorry, George, but you point just whooshed past me. Do you want to continue the cross-posting that has yielded nothing (at least nothing benlizross wanted), or do you wish it to stop? Or, are you simply trying to tell me that NZ is a great boat and ship-building nation, in which case you could have saved you breath, since I knew that already. Steve "and we know nothing about boats in the States, either..." |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
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Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
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Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
George says:
Sorry, George, but you point just whooshed past me. As much as I'm not given to insulting people I shall, in this one case' make an exception ! Yes I thought it might but then I do not often have to reduce my language to an 8 year old reading level! Well, if you can't explain what your point was, I guess I missed nothing. I'm sorry but what part of 'this is not a crosspost' eludes you ? The part where it never was posted? All this started when Yuri crossposted into your group in the faint hope that you would all spring to his defence.. And no-one did. We merely asked the crossposting to stop because the juvenile arguing was interfering with _our_ juvenile agruing. ;-) Steve Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm |
Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
George says:
Yes. I stick up for the people who through no fault of their own have physical and/or mental disabilities and very bravely get on with life. Strangely, so do I. It was a bad example. Now, you have attracted my attention I shall lurk awhile and read the group Do that, and welcome. Steve |
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