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Yuri Kuchinsky June 23rd 04 06:37 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 
benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004
in article :

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:


[snip]

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing
technology came from there.

How so?

In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere.

Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing
claim.


There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.


And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west?
Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge,
Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so?


See below, Ross.

And
who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of
these Canadian West Coast people?


You mean you don't know this?

Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had
described these things?

And then there would be the problem of
why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc
etc are of Austronesian origin....

Breathlessly awaiting your evidence.

Ross Clark


Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.

Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

Not ignorance, but ignorance of ignorance, is the
death of knowledge -- Alfred North Whitehead

Stephen Baker June 23rd 04 07:04 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 
The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very east, their
sailing technology came from there.


and



There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.


Well, lessee... If the Canadian West Coasties came over the Bering bridge,
then it would make little difference to the Polynesian canoes if they were
directly from Asia, or if they were from S America by way of Bering, since
technology was slow to change in them days.

Steve "my 2 cents"

benlizross June 23rd 04 11:19 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004
in article :

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:


[snip]

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing
technology came from there.

How so?

In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere.

Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing
claim.

There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.


And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west?
Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge,
Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so?


See below, Ross.

And
who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of
these Canadian West Coast people?


You mean you don't know this?

Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had
described these things?

And then there would be the problem of
why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc
etc are of Austronesian origin....

Breathlessly awaiting your evidence.

Ross Clark


Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.


Yes, I know you're chronically skeptical about linguistic evidence,
Yuri, since it almost never supports what you're trying to prove. Let's
just say in this case all the "suggestions" go one way.


Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)


This is it? Dear old Macmillan Brown? You were right to put "credible
authority" in quotes. But what does he actually tell us here?
The NW Coast people built big canoes. We knew that.
They resemble the Maori war canoe (JMB being a New Zealander). Hm. In
what way exactly? Besides being big canoes made by peoples who have
access to big trees? Is there some particular detail of their structure
that would lead us to conclude that the one must have been derived from,
or inspired by, the other? JMB does not say.
And finally they are "most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic
voyaging". Wait a minute. The Maori war canoe, as I understand it, is an
adaptation to lake and river travel (which were not an issue in tropical
Polynesia). It is used along the coasts as well, of course, but you do
not cross an ocean in such a vessel. When the Maori, in recent years,
have taken up oceanic voyaging, they have built themselves big double
hulled canoes. With sails. And what about sails on the NW coast? I was
struck by Cook's statement that the Nootka knew nothing of sails. Is
there good evidence for them being used elsewhere on the NW coast? How
feasible is it to get from British Columbia to Polynesia without sails?

Now that you've crossposted this to some other groups, perhaps we'll get
some useful information.

Ross Clark

George June 24th 04 02:07 AM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004
in article :

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:


[snip]

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing
technology came from there.

How so?

In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere.

Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing
claim.

There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.


And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west?
Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge,
Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so?


See below, Ross.

And
who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of
these Canadian West Coast people?


You mean you don't know this?

Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had
described these things?

And then there would be the problem of
why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc
etc are of Austronesian origin....

Breathlessly awaiting your evidence.

Ross Clark


Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.

Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)


Oceanic voyaging was not done in a Waka Taua or a Waka Pinakaku..
It was achieved in Waka Hourua or the double hulled Waka Taurua...
And any or all of the above look nothing like the Canadian West canoes

carl June 25th 04 12:08 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 
(George) wrote in message . com...
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004
in article :

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:


[snip]

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing
technology came from there.

How so?

In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere.

Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing
claim.

There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.

And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west?
Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge,
Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so?


See below, Ross.

And
who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of
these Canadian West Coast people?


You mean you don't know this?

Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had
described these things?

And then there would be the problem of
why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc
etc are of Austronesian origin....

Breathlessly awaiting your evidence.

Ross Clark


Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.

Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)


Oceanic voyaging was not done in a Waka Taua or a Waka Pinakaku..
It was achieved in Waka Hourua or the double hulled Waka Taurua...
And any or all of the above look nothing like the Canadian West canoes


you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down
to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a
canadian canoe and they go significantly faster.

Yuri Kuchinsky June 25th 04 05:53 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacificodyssey
 
benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004
in article :

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:


[snip]

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing
technology came from there.

How so?

In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere.

Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing
claim.

There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.

And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west?
Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge,
Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so?


See below, Ross.

And
who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of
these Canadian West Coast people?


You mean you don't know this?

Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had
described these things?

And then there would be the problem of
why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc
etc are of Austronesian origin....

Breathlessly awaiting your evidence.

Ross Clark


Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.


Yes, I know you're chronically skeptical about linguistic evidence,
Yuri, since it almost never supports what you're trying to prove.


This is news to me...

Let's just say in this case all the "suggestions" go one way.


According to you.

Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)


This is it? Dear old Macmillan Brown? You were right to put "credible
authority" in quotes. But what does he actually tell us here?
The NW Coast people built big canoes. We knew that.
They resemble the Maori war canoe (JMB being a New Zealander). Hm. In
what way exactly?


Something for you to investigate perhaps.

Besides being big canoes made by peoples who have
access to big trees? Is there some particular detail of their structure
that would lead us to conclude that the one must have been derived from,
or inspired by, the other? JMB does not say.


It could be the carved bow and stern pieces, for example.

And finally they are "most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic
voyaging". Wait a minute. The Maori war canoe, as I understand it, is an
adaptation to lake and river travel (which were not an issue in tropical
Polynesia).


Your understanding may be wrong.

It is used along the coasts as well, of course, but you do
not cross an ocean in such a vessel. When the Maori, in recent years,
have taken up oceanic voyaging, they have built themselves big double
hulled canoes. With sails. And what about sails on the NW coast? I was
struck by Cook's statement that the Nootka knew nothing of sails. Is
there good evidence for them being used elsewhere on the NW coast? How
feasible is it to get from British Columbia to Polynesia without sails?

Now that you've crossposted this to some other groups, perhaps we'll get
some useful information.

Ross Clark


Same types of sail have been identified both in Canada and
NZ. Also, same type of double hulled canoes.

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

A great many people think they are thinking when they are
merely rearranging their prejudices -=O=- William James

Yuri Kuchinsky June 25th 04 05:57 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacificodyssey
 
George wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004
in article :

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:


[snip]

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing
technology came from there.

How so?

In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere.

Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing
claim.

There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.

And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west?
Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge,
Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so?


See below, Ross.

And
who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of
these Canadian West Coast people?


You mean you don't know this?

Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had
described these things?

And then there would be the problem of
why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc
etc are of Austronesian origin....

Breathlessly awaiting your evidence.

Ross Clark


Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.

Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)


Oceanic voyaging was not done in a Waka Taua or a Waka Pinakaku..
It was achieved in Waka Hourua or the double hulled Waka Taurua...
And any or all of the above look nothing like the Canadian West
canoes


Your opinion only.

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in
nonsense than to put out on the troubled seas of
thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith

Yuri Kuchinsky June 25th 04 05:58 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacificodyssey
 
carl wrote:

(George) wrote in message . com...
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004
in article :

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

[snip]

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing
technology came from there.

How so?

In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere.

Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing
claim.

There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.

And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west?
Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge,
Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so?

See below, Ross.

And
who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of
these Canadian West Coast people?

You mean you don't know this?

Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had
described these things?

And then there would be the problem of
why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc
etc are of Austronesian origin....

Breathlessly awaiting your evidence.

Ross Clark

Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.

Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)


Oceanic voyaging was not done in a Waka Taua or a Waka Pinakaku..
It was achieved in Waka Hourua or the double hulled Waka Taurua...
And any or all of the above look nothing like the Canadian West canoes


you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down
to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a
canadian canoe and they go significantly faster.


Those who have studied both types of craft disagree.

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=-
http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in
nonsense than to put out on the troubled seas of
thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith

Yuri Kuchinsky June 25th 04 06:14 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacificodyssey
 
Stephen Baker wrote:

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very east, their
sailing technology came from there.


and

There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.


Well, lessee... If the Canadian West Coasties came over the Bering bridge,
then it would make little difference to the Polynesian canoes if they were
directly from Asia, or if they were from S America by way of Bering, since
technology was slow to change in them days.

Steve "my 2 cents"


Hi, Steve,

If they were already sailors and fishermen, who lived by the
sea, why did they need the Bering Bridge?

They could have easily come by the sea skipping along the
coast.

The main argument in this thread is if the Canadian
aborigines had a direct role to play in Polynesia. I'm
arguing that the homeland of the Polynesians was Canada.

All the best,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in
nonsense than to put out on the troubled seas of
thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith

Stephen Baker June 25th 04 06:28 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
 
Yuri says:

If they were already sailors and fishermen, who lived by the
sea, why did they need the Bering Bridge?


Maybe they were upland folks who finished up beside the ocean and thought "Gee,
why don't we build some boats like the folks back home had?"

Makes as much sense as any of the other guesses you anthro-geeks are making.
;-)

I'm arguing


True...

that the homeland of the Polynesians was Canada.


Any similarities between Polynesian boats and the Inuit stuff?

Steve

George June 25th 04 09:26 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 
(carl) wrote in message . com...
(George) wrote in message . com...

snip

Oceanic voyaging was not done in a Waka Taua or a Waka Pinakaku..
It was achieved in Waka Hourua or the double hulled Waka Taurua...
And any or all of the above look nothing like the Canadian West canoes..


you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down
to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a
canadian canoe and they go significantly faster.


Yup. Of course were Yuri asked he would be unaware of the significant
differences that reserve the waka Taua and the waka Pinaku and the
tapus involved!

Go to
http://www.koekejunction.hnpl.net/ hit the photo and almost at
the bottom of the left hand side frame is the link to my Waka page.
Any-one who can contribute other waka and their locations (if not
already present) are welcome to email me with the details

benlizross June 25th 04 11:28 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacificodyssey
 
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.


Yes, I know you're chronically skeptical about linguistic evidence,
Yuri, since it almost never supports what you're trying to prove.


This is news to me...

Let's just say in this case all the "suggestions" go one way.


According to you.


And to everyone else who actually knows something about it.

Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)


This is it? Dear old Macmillan Brown? You were right to put "credible
authority" in quotes. But what does he actually tell us here?
The NW Coast people built big canoes. We knew that.
They resemble the Maori war canoe (JMB being a New Zealander). Hm. In
what way exactly?


Something for you to investigate perhaps.


No, something for you to explain to us, since it is you who is putting
this forth as evidence for your claims.

Besides being big canoes made by peoples who have
access to big trees? Is there some particular detail of their structure
that would lead us to conclude that the one must have been derived from,
or inspired by, the other? JMB does not say.


It could be the carved bow and stern pieces, for example.


Uh huh? Just the existence of such things, or their particular form? You
can show that whatever it is is found nowhere else in the world?

And finally they are "most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic
voyaging". Wait a minute. The Maori war canoe, as I understand it, is an
adaptation to lake and river travel (which were not an issue in tropical
Polynesia).


Your understanding may be wrong.


It may be. Unfortunately your crossposting has not brought us any fresh
expertise from among the boat-builders or the New Zealanders. And I know
your understanding is no better than mine.

It is used along the coasts as well, of course, but you do
not cross an ocean in such a vessel. When the Maori, in recent years,
have taken up oceanic voyaging, they have built themselves big double
hulled canoes. With sails. And what about sails on the NW coast? I was
struck by Cook's statement that the Nootka knew nothing of sails. Is
there good evidence for them being used elsewhere on the NW coast? How
feasible is it to get from British Columbia to Polynesia without sails?

Now that you've crossposted this to some other groups, perhaps we'll get
some useful information.

Ross Clark


Same types of sail have been identified both in Canada and
NZ. Also, same type of double hulled canoes.


Reference?

Ross Clark

Stephen Baker June 26th 04 02:02 AM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
 
benlizross says:

snip

Unfortunately your crossposting has not brought us any fresh
expertise from among the boat-builders or the New Zealanders.


snip a bit more

Then FFS cut the cross-posting and leave us alone here in boat-building land.

Here's a clue (from New Zealand, no less...):
http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.p...22/arguing.jpg

Tanx.

Steve

George June 26th 04 03:21 AM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
carl wrote:



snip


you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down
to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a
canadian canoe and they go significantly faster.


Those who have studied both types of craft disagree.


No.

http://www.newzealand.com/travel/about-nz/culture/discovery-vintage-new-zealand/$profiles/hekenukumai-busby.cfm
is as much a real authority on the Waka as its possible to find.
The Canadian dug out
http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/wa.../wad05eng.html resembles
the waka in no way what so ever.

The only claimant to the link between the canoe of Canada and the New
Zealand waka is an Australian who quotes heyerdahl at length.
A google search will lead you to those articles....

and, if you are -really- interested in the waka
http://www.nzbooks.com/nzbooks/produ...vans0790007150
and Jeff will be only to happy to sell you his book...

carl June 26th 04 10:48 AM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
carl wrote:

(George) wrote in message . com...
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004
in article :

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

[snip]

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing
technology came from there.

How so?

In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere.

Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing
claim.

There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.

And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west?
Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge,
Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so?

See below, Ross.

And
who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of
these Canadian West Coast people?

You mean you don't know this?

Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had
described these things?

And then there would be the problem of
why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc
etc are of Austronesian origin....

Breathlessly awaiting your evidence.

Ross Clark

Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.

Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)

Oceanic voyaging was not done in a Waka Taua or a Waka Pinakaku..
It was achieved in Waka Hourua or the double hulled Waka Taurua...
And any or all of the above look nothing like the Canadian West canoes


you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down
to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a
canadian canoe and they go significantly faster.


Those who have studied both types of craft disagree.

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=-
http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in
nonsense than to put out on the troubled seas of
thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith



Ok
you think they are similar
in what way do you think they resemble each other?

please share your experience in designing and using these types of craft

Stephen Baker June 26th 04 11:56 AM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 
carl says:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message


snip

Ok
you think they are similar
in what way do you think they resemble each other?

please share your experience in designing and using these types of craft


And please, since you are still cross-postewd to a boatbuilding group, let's
have some numbers to back it up like the Prismatic Coefficients, some reference
to section shapes, displacement-length ratios, etc, instead of just some
anthro-geek mumbo-jumbo about "they're the same length and they both float,
so..."

Thanks Yuri,

Steve

Martyn Harrison June 26th 04 12:15 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 
Apparently on date 25 Jun 2004 19:21:31 -0700, (George) said:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
carl wrote:


you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down
to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a
canadian canoe and they go significantly faster.


Those who have studied both types of craft disagree.


No.

http://www.newzealand.com/travel/about-nz/culture/discovery-vintage-new-zealand/$profiles/hekenukumai-busby.cfm
is as much a real authority on the Waka as its possible to find.
The Canadian dug out
http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/wa.../wad05eng.html resembles
the waka in no way what so ever.


You know, I've never imagined that they were so different. A dug out canoe
ought to resemble any other, initially, regardless of who built it and where.
But the finishing off is quite significant and, as you say, quite differently
executed.

It's remarkable that Heyerdhal didn't even check to see if there were
similarities between the two, in order to see that, actually, there are
striking differences.



George June 26th 04 09:17 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 
Martyn Harrison wrote in message . ..
Apparently on date 25 Jun 2004 19:21:31 -0700, (George) said:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
carl wrote:


you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down
to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a
canadian canoe and they go significantly faster.

Those who have studied both types of craft disagree.


No.

http://www.newzealand.com/travel/about-nz/culture/discovery-vintage-new-zealand/$profiles/hekenukumai-busby.cfm
is as much a real authority on the Waka as its possible to find.
The Canadian dug out
http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/wa.../wad05eng.html resembles
the waka in no way what so ever.


You know, I've never imagined that they were so different. A dug out canoe
ought to resemble any other, initially, regardless of who built it and where.
But the finishing off is quite significant and, as you say, quite differently
executed.

It's remarkable that Heyerdhal didn't even check to see if there were
similarities between the two, in order to see that, actually, there are
striking differences.


This is always the sad thing about the heyerdahls of the world. Once
they have an idea there is no shifting them.
All the linguistic and genetic evidence wasn't enough to convince him
And here, his devotee Yuri accepts the waka claim, without actually
comparing the Canadian logboat and the waka stating his 'knowledge'
comes from 'experts' in the field, who, when examined, have no
expertise in the field.....

June 27th 04 06:56 AM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 
In article , Yuri Kuchinsky
wrote:

Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.


the physical evidence is also fragmentary. consolidating that
information into a historical theory is always a matter of conjecture,
not proof as it might exist in other disciplines.

don't be such an ameteur.

Martyn Harrison June 27th 04 10:43 AM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 
Apparently on date 26 Jun 2004 13:17:44 -0700, (George) said:

Martyn Harrison wrote in message . ..
Apparently on date 25 Jun 2004 19:21:31 -0700,
(George) said:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in message ...
carl wrote:


you bet! and if you want to see a sea worthy Waka Hourua head on down
to the Auckland maritime museum , they look very little like a
canadian canoe and they go significantly faster.

Those who have studied both types of craft disagree.

No.

http://www.newzealand.com/travel/about-nz/culture/discovery-vintage-new-zealand/$profiles/hekenukumai-busby.cfm
is as much a real authority on the Waka as its possible to find.
The Canadian dug out
http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/wa.../wad05eng.html resembles
the waka in no way what so ever.


You know, I've never imagined that they were so different. A dug out canoe
ought to resemble any other, initially, regardless of who built it and where.
But the finishing off is quite significant and, as you say, quite differently
executed.

It's remarkable that Heyerdhal didn't even check to see if there were
similarities between the two, in order to see that, actually, there are
striking differences.


This is always the sad thing about the heyerdahls of the world. Once
they have an idea there is no shifting them.
All the linguistic and genetic evidence wasn't enough to convince him
And here, his devotee Yuri accepts the waka claim, without actually
comparing the Canadian logboat and the waka stating his 'knowledge'
comes from 'experts' in the field, who, when examined, have no
expertise in the field.....


Quite.

The puzzling thing about this, is the motivation. Clearly, a poster reads a
book, a misleading one, and comes to a newsgroup where they present their
opinions on some matter, opinions formed by the book they have read.

These opinions are devalued by reasoning, extra information, etc. The proper
response to this is:

1) as an absolute minimum, identify that the opinion(s) were, in the first
place, mistaken.

2) react to this information, probably the most likely way is to squink out of
it, by unjust logical games, etc.

3) or to accept the information and learn more (heck, this is usually no fun)

4) or to drop the debate rather than digging the hole deeper, and come back in
with a different set of opinions (and possibly a different usenet identity).

Possibly option 4) is the least loss of "face", 2) gets you labeled by most
people (who aren't as easily fooled as posters like to imagine) and 3) is most
likely the best way to build a good reputation.

Option 1) is absolutely essential, failing to realise when you are wrong is a
mental disease of some sort, either the issue is too difficult to understand
(i.e. people who reject relativity do so due to not being able to understand
it) or it is easy to understand and your own mind is deceiving you. Matters
like are discussed in here, almost all fit the "easy to comprehend" category,
so failing to achieve 1) comprehension of error, points to a very stupid or
confused person.

Options 2 - 4 reflect a persons attitude, possibly at the time, the less honest
strategies are likely to be most common.

One of the problems I can see, is a false belief in personal credibility.
Someone may believe other people hold them in high regard. In this case,
changing their opinion, however wrong it may be, would threaten a loss of
credibility with these unknown lurkers. If that is how someone imagines things,
they really ought to try smelling the coffee and reflect that opinion of the
masses, generally follows the opinions expressed. If people in here, are not
agreeing, chances are that this is reflected in the people who are here but do
not (or rarely) speak.

IOW, when you realise you are in error, the way you react, and what people
subsequently say about you / your ideas, is probably pretty much a reflection
of the actual reputation of you / your ideas.

Putting this another way, if Yuri was agreeing with me, I'd have to sit down
and have a good long think about what it is I have gotten so badly wrong.

In the case of Heyerdhal, his "reputation" reflects book sales. This is a very
real thing and his motivation is quite different, he is making money by doing
what people want him to do. He isn't trying to do science.


Philip Deitiker June 27th 04 04:26 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 
(Backyard Renegade) says in
om:

Simple, drop the "rec.boats.building" from the "send to
group(s)" line and we would not have to read your
psudointellectual BS in a boat builders group!


Aren't boatbuilders at all interested in the welfare of loons.
Here (sci.archaeology) you get a chance to see a whole cluster
of loons, in formation. Many of you may never even get a chance
to see the Swedish Greater Loon from close view, here you get to
see our semidomesticated loon "Inger E" in close view, not to
mention the "Yuri" loon and a few others. Think of the
opportunity you are missing, ;^).

--
Philip
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Mol. Anth. Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DNAanthro/
Mol. Evol. Hominids http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/
Evol. of Xchrom.
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/xlinked.htm
Pal. Anth. Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Paleoanthro/
Sci. Arch. Aux
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sciarchauxilliary/

Stephen Baker June 27th 04 06:23 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey
 
Philip Diet-Hiker says:

Aren't boatbuilders at all interested in the welfare of loons.
Here (sci.archaeology) you get a chance to see a whole cluster
of loons, in formation.


Take it to alt.birdwatching.loons ;-)

Steve

George June 29th 04 12:42 AM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
 
ospam (Stephen Baker) wrote in message ...
benlizross says:

snip

Unfortunately your crossposting has not brought us any fresh
expertise from among the boat-builders or the New Zealanders.


snip a bit more

Then FFS cut the cross-posting and leave us alone here in boat-building land.

Here's a clue (from New Zealand, no less...):
http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.p...22/arguing.jpg

Tanx.

Yup. Down here in the Southern Pacific we don't know a lot about boat
building. Well apart from building boats that won the Americas Cup
twice and losing it to a Swiss team of New Zealanders.
Having a multibillion dollar small shipbuilding industry.
And as for sailing: well apart from the "Royal Akarana" and other
sailing races and having an Offshore Masters certificate from my
commercial fishing days I'm totally ignorant of ships :-)
Oh and I better tell you that helping build a Mullet taught me nothing
about boatbuilding !
Sheesh

George June 29th 04 12:51 AM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
 
ospam (Stephen Baker) wrote in message ...
benlizross says:

snip

Unfortunately your crossposting has not brought us any fresh
expertise from among the boat-builders or the New Zealanders.


snip a bit more

Then FFS cut the cross-posting and leave us alone here in boat-building land.

Here's a clue (from New Zealand, no less...):
http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.p...22/arguing.jpg


Well done Stephen.
Must be proud of yourself having a go at the Special Olympics
You have just demonstrated the sort of person you are..
The submarine service could do with your help They need deckhands !

Stephen Baker June 29th 04 12:16 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
 
George says:

Well done Stephen.
Must be proud of yourself having a go at the Special Olympics


No, just using them as an example of how simple it is to make bad assumptions
about others on UseNet, anbd how idiotic it is to argue with folks you don't
know.

Yes, the picture makes fun of the Special Olympics, which is not kind. My
apologies.
The analogy, badly put though it may be, still holds. Here we had/have two
guys arguing, who in all likelihood have never met face to face, or spoken on
the phone, each convinced he is right, and neither is ever going to convince
the other of their fallacies.
It will degenerate into a "he said" "she said" thing soon, and then there will
be quiet for a while until someone starts another unprovable argument.
So, what is the point of the arguing? Are you really going ot get a warm,
fuzzy feeling if you win? Is there a prize (apart from the ego thing)?

You have just demonstrated the sort of person you are..
The submarine service could do with your help They need deckhands !


And you have just demonstrated the sort of person you are. Nice job.

Steve

Stephen Baker June 29th 04 12:18 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
 
George says:

Yup. Down here in the Southern Pacific we don't know a lot about boat
building. Well apart from building boats that won the Americas Cup
twice and losing it to a Swiss team of New Zealanders.
Having a multibillion dollar small shipbuilding industry.
And as for sailing: well apart from the "Royal Akarana" and other
sailing races and having an Offshore Masters certificate from my
commercial fishing days I'm totally ignorant of ships :-)
Oh and I better tell you that helping build a Mullet taught me nothing
about boatbuilding !
Sheesh


Sorry, George, but you point just whooshed past me.

Do you want to continue the cross-posting that has yielded nothing (at least
nothing benlizross wanted), or do you wish it to stop?

Or, are you simply trying to tell me that NZ is a great boat and ship-building
nation, in which case you could have saved you breath, since I knew that
already.

Steve "and we know nothing about boats in the States, either..."

George June 29th 04 08:58 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
 
ospam (Stephen Baker) wrote in message ...
George says:

Yup. Down here in the Southern Pacific we don't know a lot about boat
building. Well apart from building boats that won the Americas Cup
twice and losing it to a Swiss team of New Zealanders.
Having a multibillion dollar small shipbuilding industry.
And as for sailing: well apart from the "Royal Akarana" and other
sailing races and having an Offshore Masters certificate from my
commercial fishing days I'm totally ignorant of ships :-)
Oh and I better tell you that helping build a Mullet taught me nothing
about boatbuilding !
Sheesh


Sorry, George, but you point just whooshed past me.


As much as I'm not given to insulting people I shall, in this one
case' make an exception !
Yes I thought it might but then I do not often have to reduce my
language to an 8 year old reading level!

Do you want to continue the cross-posting that has yielded nothing (at least
nothing benlizross wanted), or do you wish it to stop?

Or, are you simply trying to tell me that NZ is a great boat and ship-building
nation, in which case you could have saved you breath, since I knew that
already.

Steve "and we know nothing about boats in the States, either..."


I'm sorry but what part of 'this is not a crosspost' eludes you ?

All this started when Yuri crossposted into your group in the faint
hope that you would all spring to his defence..

George June 29th 04 09:03 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
 
ospam (Stephen Baker) wrote in message ...
George says:

Well done Stephen.
Must be proud of yourself having a go at the Special Olympics


No, just using them as an example of how simple it is to make bad assumptions
about others on UseNet, anbd how idiotic it is to argue with folks you don't
know.

Yes, the picture makes fun of the Special Olympics, which is not kind. My
apologies.
The analogy, badly put though it may be, still holds. Here we had/have two
guys arguing, who in all likelihood have never met face to face, or spoken on
the phone, each convinced he is right, and neither is ever going to convince
the other of their fallacies.
It will degenerate into a "he said" "she said" thing soon, and then there will
be quiet for a while until someone starts another unprovable argument.
So, what is the point of the arguing? Are you really going ot get a warm,
fuzzy feeling if you win? Is there a prize (apart from the ego thing)?

You have just demonstrated the sort of person you are..
The submarine service could do with your help They need deckhands !


And you have just demonstrated the sort of person you are. Nice job.

Yes. I stick up for the people who through no fault of their own have
physical and/or mental disabilities and very bravely get on with life.
They don't need the jeers and predudice demonstrated in your post.
And okay you apologised.
Now, you have attracted my attention I shall lurk awhile and read the
group

Stephen Baker June 29th 04 10:05 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
 
George says:

Sorry, George, but you point just whooshed past me.


As much as I'm not given to insulting people I shall, in this one
case' make an exception !
Yes I thought it might but then I do not often have to reduce my
language to an 8 year old reading level!


Well, if you can't explain what your point was, I guess I missed nothing.

I'm sorry but what part of 'this is not a crosspost' eludes you ?


The part where it never was posted?


All this started when Yuri crossposted into your group in the faint
hope that you would all spring to his defence..


And no-one did. We merely asked the crossposting to stop because the juvenile
arguing was interfering with _our_ juvenile agruing. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

Stephen Baker June 29th 04 10:07 PM

Polynesian canoes ( Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific
 
George says:

Yes. I stick up for the people who through no fault of their own have
physical and/or mental disabilities and very bravely get on with life.


Strangely, so do I. It was a bad example.

Now, you have attracted my attention I shall lurk awhile and read the
group


Do that, and welcome.

Steve


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