How about solid copper pipe with short sections of that expensive hose just
to join to the thru hull and toilet itself etc....
Waste odors wont seep thru solid copper piping.
Shoot, you could even JB weld epoxy the pieces of copper together instead of
using metal solder.



"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
message news
I'm sure there's a good reason - but my initial looking discloses two
basic
types of sanitation hose.

Both claim the same purpose (keep the stuff and the odor inside while on
the
way outside), but there's one which is 3x the price of the other.

What's the difference, other than the obvious price? Easier to use?
Won't
let the odor/seep through, ever, vs some number of years? Stays whiter in
more conditions?

The difference, in boat money terms, is pretty insignificant, I'd say
(some
couple-three hundred bux for the standard 50' roll), but if it's not
needed,
I can use that couple-three somewhere else.

Anybody used both (e.g. "148" vs "Sealand") who can give experiential
input?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a
clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize
that you are quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to
you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an
insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly
so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is
an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a
permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated
by your friends." - James S. Pitkin

Scott Downey wrote:
How about solid copper pipe with short sections of that expensive hose just
to join to the thru hull and toilet itself etc....
Waste odors wont seep thru solid copper piping.
Shoot, you could even JB weld epoxy the pieces of copper together instead of
using metal solder.

Copper pipe is often used in boat fresh water systems, but urine is so
corrosive that copper isn't recommended for waste piping.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html

Thanks to all for the various responses - and I'm enjoying the permutations
this thread is taking, as most ones which go beyond a single response
eventually seem to do, as well.

However, I wanted to explore this response a bit:

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:kXYec.669$uF3.447@lakeread04...
148 is recommended for grey water and as a bilge hose but it will not
stand up to odor permiation in toilet applications. 144 is somewhat
better but not much. 101 is the standard black water hose and Sealand's
Odorsafe is the best.

I see from their website that they now have an improved version (in 2004)
(abbreviated hereafter as SLOS+). I presume that means I'll need to be
careful where I buy it, as old stock might be present. I don't know if the
newer stuff has a price premium, either - but it seems the concensus is that
SLOS would last the lifetime of the boat, so perhaps it's of no event?


You don't need a whole lot. I talked to Ed McKunen, president of
Sealand (and not my favorite person) about it. We recommend making your
longer runs in Schedule 40 PVC with short lengths of Odorsafe to absorb
vibration and movement.

I'd be interested to know what it was you talked about, and why the
personality clash. As to the longer runs, I'm all for the S40PVC - but
wonder if I can use the normal elbows and 45s to accomplish the transitions
which would be present in my rerunning the lines.

For example, the current installation of the aft head is a curved section
from the down-facing outlet of the Raritan PHII joker housing, reaching,
eventually, the aft engine room bulkhead for a fairly long run to the vented
loop before going (back, from the loop) down to a Y. I could see installing
a 3-piece, two-L (preferably long radius, I assume) PVC section, with the
small sections of SLOS+, to do the same job. If so, would it be appropriate
to support the horizontal (under the aft head sole) run, or would the
bulkhead alone, or, even, perhaps, just the two double-clamped (making 4
clamps in a relatively short pipe!) SLOS+ sections suffice? And, for that
matter, would it be better *not* to secure them, but to allow the SLOS+
sections to act as buffers?

All the other installations would likely be permutations of the same, so
they're not worth discussion here. However, not having done any such
installations, I wonder if the SLOS+ slips on the outside of S40PVC, or if
some sort of transition is needed? In particular, even if it did, the walls
are smooth - would I need some sort of barbing?

From a neat-nik and practicality perspective, I really like the concept of
S40PVC. I was all set to buy a roll of SLOS+, but if I can make it work,
I'd certainly prefer this on many levels.

Thanks again to all for all the input.

L8R

Skip and Lydia

PS I'm some time away from it, but logs of the delivery/shakedown adventures
will be forthcoming when I have dug out from under all that's here after 3
weeks away and recovered from the surgery of yesterday...
--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a
clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize
that you are quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to
you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an
insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly
so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is
an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a
permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated
by your friends." - James S. Pitkin

Skip Gundlach wrote:
148 is recommended for grey water and as a bilge hose but it will not
stand up to odor permiation in toilet applications. 144 is somewhat
better but not much. 101 is the standard black water hose and Sealand's
Odorsafe is the best.

I see from their website that they now have an improved version (in 2004)
(abbreviated hereafter as SLOS+). I presume that means I'll need to be
careful where I buy it, as old stock might be present.

It doesn't matter whether you get "old" OdorSafe, AVS96 (which is the
same thing as "old" OS, but without SL's private label brand on it), or
"new" SLOS+. Of course SL is gonna call their new hose "new and
improved"--doesn't every mfr any time they change ANY even the color of
something?--but that's no guarantee that it's any better than the
original...which, btw, was outstanding.

I don't know if the
newer stuff has a price premium, either - but it seems the concensus is that
SLOS would last the lifetime of the boat, so perhaps it's of no event?

All 3 versions have about the same price tag.

I'd be interested to know what it was you talked about, and why the
personality clash.

He's not my favorite person either...I suspect for the same reasons
Glenn doesn't like him.

As to the longer runs, I'm all for the S40PVC - but
wonder if I can use the normal elbows and 45s to accomplish the transitions
which would be present in my rerunning the lines.

For example, the current installation of the aft head is a curved section
from the down-facing outlet of the Raritan PHII joker housing, reaching,
eventually, the aft engine room bulkhead for a fairly long run to the vented
loop before going (back, from the loop) down to a Y.

Just how long ARE these runs? The tank should be within 6' of the toilet.

I could see installing...

Skip... don't over-engineer it...KISS! The simpler, more straightforward
the plumbing, the better. If the current tank location will allow that,
it appears from your description of the plumbing that there are so many
bends in it that hard pipe will only over-complicate things...use hose.
If ther's a better location for the tank that will simplify the
plumbing, move it, even if that means replacing the tank to get one that
will fit the space.

You're welcome to get with me via email and/or phone to work it out.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html

Hi, Peggie, and group,

As to the longer runs, I'm all for the S40PVC - but
wonder if I can use the normal elbows and 45s to accomplish the
transitions
which would be present in my rerunning the lines.

For example, the current installation of the aft head is a curved
section
from the down-facing outlet of the Raritan PHII joker housing, reaching,
eventually, the aft engine room bulkhead for a fairly long run to the
vented
loop before going (back, from the loop) down to a Y.

Just how long ARE these runs? The tank should be within 6' of the toilet.

The forward head has a holding tank - new, never used and the only place
where there's new white (don't know the type) hose. I'll leave it in place,
but doubt seriously that it will ever get used. The aft head once had one,
I presume, because there's a pumpout on deck, but I've seen no evidence of
it. Both heads have LectraSans, both of which, likewise, I'd like never to
use.

That's because we'll be in places, nearly always, where direct overboard is
appropriate. Talk about KISS :{)) As to not using the LS - Not because
they don't work - as far as I know, they work fine, including that the aft
unit is new. I just don't like the electrical overhead on a system which
seems challenged, somehow, already, despite being nearly new 4xT105s.

As to the runs, the original example is a little over 6' - but that's only
because the pipe has a long upward run for the vented loop. Specifically,
if it were to be SLOS/equivalent, it would be about 66" to the vented loop.
However, if I could eliminate the dip in the lower portion (run it
horizontal from a wide-radius ELL) it would be a bit shorter because I'd be
doing whatever that mathematical item is which cuts a circle at a point
before the top/bottom, rather than taking the circumferential route.
Likewise, I'm not sure the riser loop has to be as high as it is, but for
the sake of a few riser inches (times 3, as the Y below has two legs which
would be shortened, as well), it's probably not worth lowering the vent.

In the case of the aft head, the runs are very easy - straight pipe (with
the two ells) would accomplish all of it easily. The forward head is
another story. That might be very difficult to achieve due to the layout
making a stick difficult, where something flexible would go more easily.
Relating to another thread, this boat has all Jabsco Ys - the older ones,
white, with a lever-style handle with an end which goes around the shaft,
rather than the current T style handle, black plastic, and widely separated
exits. The one in the forward head has the handle broken (the part around
the shaft) as it wouldn't turn, and I'm stronger than the plastic, which was
weaker than the resistance to turning. Any idea where I'd get a new handle?
These are the older style, I presume - and the good thing, as far as I'm
concerned, about them, is that they output in the same direction, and close
together, rather than in an equilateral Y - which would save me some 45s
were I to convert to some other Y valves. All but the aforementioned
forward head example, which has two, work just fine, so I presume there's no
reason to replace them.


I could see installing...

Skip... don't over-engineer it...KISS! The simpler, more straightforward
the plumbing, the better. If the current tank location will allow that,
it appears from your description of the plumbing that there are so many
bends in it that hard pipe will only over-complicate things...use hose.

Not quite so. Just the one above, which would eliminate a low spot, as
well. That's the place the crystals became a solid (cured by a couple of
days worth of sailing with vinegar in the mix) in the first section of head
output.

Because there's a LSan in the engine room, though, the diversion to that
unit *also* uses up a fairly long run, both ways, off to the side (79 and 70
inches, respectively). The layout is head-loop, loop-Y(a)(b), (a)
lectrasan-in/out (b) direct to a T of overhead and LS-out, T-out. The only
loop/bend in the entirety is the first run, if you ignore the vented loop.
Seems like a very good application of hard pipe. The horizontal portion of
the head-Y part would be perhaps a foot or so - and, of course, if I leave
the LSan in, those are both in the 6 foot range (after the Y and before the
T)...

If ther's a better location for the tank that will simplify the
plumbing, move it, even if that means replacing the tank to get one that
will fit the space.

You're welcome to get with me via email and/or phone to work it out.

I'm not sure I want a tank, as per above. However, if I decide to leave the
LS's in place, it would probably be a good idea to relocate the aft one, as
the total pipe to *it* is well over 6'. OTOH, what are used LS worth? As
far as I can see, currently, they're taking up useful space, and to use them
is pretty expensive in my electrical budget. If they have a significant
value, I'd like to sell them.

Thanks for your offer - if I get desperate, I'll take you up on it. FWIW,
we read your book cover to cover on the delivery run...

L8R

Skip and Lydia

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2


--
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away
from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover." - Mark Twain

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:kXYec.669$uF3.447@lakeread04...
You don't need a whole lot. I talked to Ed McKunen, president of
Sealand (and not my favorite person) about it. We recommend making your
longer runs in Schedule 40 PVC with short lengths of Odorsafe to absorb
vibration and movement.

Does the hose go over the pipe, or are some intermediate fittings needed to
work?

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away
from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover." - Mark Twain

Shields makes straight and 90º threaded hose adaptors and Sealand sells
a straight PVC to hose adaptor. Both are exactly the right size to fit
1 1/2" sanitation hose. They cost about $8/each and slip on with a
little KY jelley.
Most of my runs are a Shields adaptor threaded into the tank, 12" to 24"
of Sealand hose, a Seland adaptor and then Schedule 40. If I had to go
around a corner I used sweep ells or 45s. On the head end there is
another Sealand transition to a short length of hose which then fits on
the head outlet.

BTW, I have a couple of Shields 90s, a straight and a couple of Sealand
straight transitions left over if anybody needs them.

Skip Gundlach wrote:
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:kXYec.669$uF3.447@lakeread04...

You don't need a whole lot. I talked to Ed McKunen, president of
Sealand (and not my favorite person) about it. We recommend making your
longer runs in Schedule 40 PVC with short lengths of Odorsafe to absorb
vibration and movement.


Does the hose go over the pipe, or are some intermediate fittings needed to
work?

L8R

Skip


--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

A brief followup to the original question, which was about Sealand
OdorsafePlus and other sanitation hose:

Various posters have worried over, or enthused over, PVC as boat pipe. In
particular, though:

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:kXYec.669$uF3.447@lakeread04...
You don't need a whole lot. I talked to Ed McKunen, president of
Sealand (and not my favorite person) about it. We recommend making your
longer runs in Schedule 40 PVC with short lengths of Odorsafe to absorb
vibration and movement.

From this - and the presence of a large number of fittings on their site - I
infer that using PVC where possible is the preferred modus. Is that so?
And WRT movement, is it better to let it hang, with the hose being the boat
equivalent of muffler hangers on a car, or to support longer sections firmly
(e.g. the riser to the vented loop, which could be secured to a bulkhead)?

And one other question - am I likely to find these fittings at a West, or
are they direct or special order? Should I use large radius fittings in
between ends, or just their 90s?

I'm thrilled to think that I might be able to use PVC for large segments of
the waste plumbing - not so much for cost, but that it would (presumably) be
the end of it, not to mention that the smallest possible segments of *any*
hose would limit the amount of exposure to future smelly issues..

Thanks for any experience...

L8R

Skip
--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2


"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a
clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize
that you are quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to
you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an
insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly
so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is
an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a
permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated
by your friends." - James S. Pitkin

Support the pipe well every 24-26". Do not allow the fittings to be
subjected to stress. The Shields and Sealand fittings only come
straight and 90s. Try to use the straights where ever possible and
sweeps on all pipe to pipe turns.

Like I said, I have some extra hose fittings if you need them.

Skip Gundlach wrote:

A brief followup to the original question, which was about Sealand
OdorsafePlus and other sanitation hose:

Various posters have worried over, or enthused over, PVC as boat pipe. In
particular, though:

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:kXYec.669$uF3.447@lakeread04...

You don't need a whole lot. I talked to Ed McKunen, president of
Sealand (and not my favorite person) about it. We recommend making your
longer runs in Schedule 40 PVC with short lengths of Odorsafe to absorb
vibration and movement.


From this - and the presence of a large number of fittings on their site - I
infer that using PVC where possible is the preferred modus. Is that so?
And WRT movement, is it better to let it hang, with the hose being the boat
equivalent of muffler hangers on a car, or to support longer sections firmly
(e.g. the riser to the vented loop, which could be secured to a bulkhead)?

And one other question - am I likely to find these fittings at a West, or
are they direct or special order? Should I use large radius fittings in
between ends, or just their 90s?

I'm thrilled to think that I might be able to use PVC for large segments of
the waste plumbing - not so much for cost, but that it would (presumably) be
the end of it, not to mention that the smallest possible segments of *any*
hose would limit the amount of exposure to future smelly issues..

Thanks for any experience...

L8R

Skip

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com