Kipor or Honda generators versus engine driven alternators?

I see two or three problems with a 'normal' generator setup.

1 - I want 1 or 2 litres of petrol on the boat, in the 4-stroke
outboard and that's it.

2 -Traditional generators involve lots of mains potential ac floating
around the boat.

3 - Unless you lay out 30 to 50% extra for the electronic, smoothed
output generators you run the risk of destroying sensitive electronic
equipment like laptop power supplies and microwave timer mechanisms (
or so I'm told )

4 - Running a 37 kw diesel to extract 50 or even 100 amps at 14 volts
is notoriously bad for the diesel engine, very inefficient and noisy.

5 - running a generator to drive into the shore circuit to charge
batteries via a mains 100 amp charger is a reasonable idea but somewhat
inefficent.

So I did some thinking and my idea for the boat is as follows.

I'm keen on placing a small inverter close to each piece of mains kit (
just the microwave at the moment ) and sticking to battery potentials
in general elsewhere. This means that I can use the microwave even
without the generator running.

It also means that I have to find vast amounts of charge and surplus 12
volts nominal from somewhere.

Leave the engine alternator in place and use it for the starting
battery except in emergencies

Put in a modest ( 25 amp? ) but good 4 stage mains driven battery
charger running from the shore power circuit.

Then I want to use the motor from a Kipor diesel generator to drive a
regular 120 amp marine alternator via an alternator managment system.

Upside - no mains voltages floating around, 1/2 the generator system
becomes 'standard' the alternator, regulator and charge management
systems are all replaceable anywhere ( just about ). The system is not
too sensitive to the engine running speed ( if the governor goes
haywire i can at least hold a constant throttle position and still get
a charge. ) There are no frequency matching problems - all kit is still
DC, except that driven by inverters. In a breakdown situation I have
the main engine alternator as a backup system.

Apart from the engineering challenge ie matching my alternator to the
kipor engine, I really cant see the downside to this type of
installation.

Any comments from the group?

wrote in message
ups.com...
Kipor or Honda generators versus engine driven alternators?

I see two or three problems with a 'normal' generator setup.

1 - I want 1 or 2 litres of petrol on the boat, in the 4-stroke
outboard and that's it.

2 -Traditional generators involve lots of mains potential ac floating
around the boat.

3 - Unless you lay out 30 to 50% extra for the electronic, smoothed
output generators you run the risk of destroying sensitive electronic
equipment like laptop power supplies and microwave timer mechanisms (
or so I'm told )

4 - Running a 37 kw diesel to extract 50 or even 100 amps at 14 volts
is notoriously bad for the diesel engine, very inefficient and noisy.

5 - running a generator to drive into the shore circuit to charge
batteries via a mains 100 amp charger is a reasonable idea but somewhat
inefficent.

So I did some thinking and my idea for the boat is as follows.

I'm keen on placing a small inverter close to each piece of mains kit (
just the microwave at the moment ) and sticking to battery potentials
in general elsewhere. This means that I can use the microwave even
without the generator running.

It also means that I have to find vast amounts of charge and surplus 12
volts nominal from somewhere.

Leave the engine alternator in place and use it for the starting
battery except in emergencies

Put in a modest ( 25 amp? ) but good 4 stage mains driven battery
charger running from the shore power circuit.

Then I want to use the motor from a Kipor diesel generator to drive a
regular 120 amp marine alternator via an alternator managment system.

Upside - no mains voltages floating around, 1/2 the generator system
becomes 'standard' the alternator, regulator and charge management
systems are all replaceable anywhere ( just about ). The system is not
too sensitive to the engine running speed ( if the governor goes
haywire i can at least hold a constant throttle position and still get
a charge. ) There are no frequency matching problems - all kit is still
DC, except that driven by inverters. In a breakdown situation I have
the main engine alternator as a backup system.

Apart from the engineering challenge ie matching my alternator to the
kipor engine, I really cant see the downside to this type of
installation.

Any comments from the group?


I'll comment on one area.

3 - Unless you lay out 30 to 50% extra for the electronic, smoothed
output generators you run the risk of destroying sensitive electronic
equipment like laptop power supplies and microwave timer mechanisms (
or so I'm told )

Just add a "Line Conditioner" to one circuit. Run your sensitive electronics
from that one or two outlets and it will take care of any irregularities in
line power and prevent problems.
http://www.tripplite.com/products/co...ners/index.cfm Many other brands
& sizes are available.

Fair comment on the power filter norman, probably a good idea for
sensitive loads whatever setup you have!

But $500 for 1500w goes a long way to buying a complete diesel genset!

Anyone else got a comment on my original setup?

Ian

wrote in message
oups.com...
Fair comment on the power filter norman, probably a good idea for
sensitive loads whatever setup you have!

But $500 for 1500w goes a long way to buying a complete diesel genset!

Anyone else got a comment on my original setup?

Ian

Yes, I agree that $500 is a lttle steep Ian.
I'd shop here first:
http://search.ebay.com/search/search...ne+conditioner

wrote:
Kipor or Honda generators versus engine driven alternators?

I see two or three problems with a 'normal' generator setup.

1 - I want 1 or 2 litres of petrol on the boat, in the 4-stroke
outboard and that's it.

Why not use a diesel genset from the get go?

2 -Traditional generators involve lots of mains potential ac floating
around the boat.

3 - Unless you lay out 30 to 50% extra for the electronic, smoothed
output generators you run the risk of destroying sensitive electronic
equipment like laptop power supplies and microwave timer mechanisms (
or so I'm told )

I have not found this to be true. I use a cheap chinese generator
running off of a lister CS generator, and have run my entire household
for DAYS on that setup. No damage to either the microwave or the
Internet connection, or the computers (desktop and laptop) nor the Dish
network receiver or the televisions or the stereo or refrigerator or
freezer. The only thing that runs poorly is the old electric clock, and
that is because I run the genset at 62-63 hz. I know several people who
use cheap gensets and electronic equipment with no issues.

YMMV

4 - Running a 37 kw diesel to extract 50 or even 100 amps at 14 volts
is notoriously bad for the diesel engine, very inefficient and noisy.

5 - running a generator to drive into the shore circuit to charge
batteries via a mains 100 amp charger is a reasonable idea but somewhat
inefficent.

So I did some thinking and my idea for the boat is as follows.

I'm keen on placing a small inverter close to each piece of mains kit (
just the microwave at the moment ) and sticking to battery potentials
in general elsewhere. This means that I can use the microwave even
without the generator running.

It also means that I have to find vast amounts of charge and surplus 12
volts nominal from somewhere.

Leave the engine alternator in place and use it for the starting
battery except in emergencies

Put in a modest ( 25 amp? ) but good 4 stage mains driven battery
charger running from the shore power circuit.

Then I want to use the motor from a Kipor diesel generator to drive a
regular 120 amp marine alternator via an alternator managment system.

Upside - no mains voltages floating around, 1/2 the generator system
becomes 'standard' the alternator, regulator and charge management
systems are all replaceable anywhere ( just about ). The system is not
too sensitive to the engine running speed ( if the governor goes
haywire i can at least hold a constant throttle position and still get
a charge. ) There are no frequency matching problems - all kit is still
DC, except that driven by inverters. In a breakdown situation I have
the main engine alternator as a backup system.

Apart from the engineering challenge ie matching my alternator to the
kipor engine, I really cant see the downside to this type of
installation.

Any comments from the group?



--


__________________________________________________ _____________________________
"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3

What is a cheep Chinese genset?


"dazed and confuzzed" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Kipor or Honda generators versus engine driven alternators?

I see two or three problems with a 'normal' generator setup.

1 - I want 1 or 2 litres of petrol on the boat, in the 4-stroke
outboard and that's it.

Why not use a diesel genset from the get go?

2 -Traditional generators involve lots of mains potential ac floating
around the boat.

3 - Unless you lay out 30 to 50% extra for the electronic, smoothed
output generators you run the risk of destroying sensitive electronic
equipment like laptop power supplies and microwave timer mechanisms (
or so I'm told )

I have not found this to be true. I use a cheap chinese generator running
off of a lister CS generator, and have run my entire household for DAYS on
that setup. No damage to either the microwave or the Internet connection,
or the computers (desktop and laptop) nor the Dish network receiver or the
televisions or the stereo or refrigerator or freezer. The only thing that
runs poorly is the old electric clock, and that is because I run the
genset at 62-63 hz. I know several people who use cheap gensets and
electronic equipment with no issues.

YMMV

4 - Running a 37 kw diesel to extract 50 or even 100 amps at 14 volts
is notoriously bad for the diesel engine, very inefficient and noisy.

5 - running a generator to drive into the shore circuit to charge
batteries via a mains 100 amp charger is a reasonable idea but somewhat
inefficent.

So I did some thinking and my idea for the boat is as follows.

I'm keen on placing a small inverter close to each piece of mains kit (
just the microwave at the moment ) and sticking to battery potentials
in general elsewhere. This means that I can use the microwave even
without the generator running.

It also means that I have to find vast amounts of charge and surplus 12
volts nominal from somewhere.

Leave the engine alternator in place and use it for the starting
battery except in emergencies

Put in a modest ( 25 amp? ) but good 4 stage mains driven battery
charger running from the shore power circuit.

Then I want to use the motor from a Kipor diesel generator to drive a
regular 120 amp marine alternator via an alternator managment system.

Upside - no mains voltages floating around, 1/2 the generator system
becomes 'standard' the alternator, regulator and charge management
systems are all replaceable anywhere ( just about ). The system is not
too sensitive to the engine running speed ( if the governor goes
haywire i can at least hold a constant throttle position and still get
a charge. ) There are no frequency matching problems - all kit is still
DC, except that driven by inverters. In a breakdown situation I have
the main engine alternator as a backup system.

Apart from the engineering challenge ie matching my alternator to the
kipor engine, I really cant see the downside to this type of
installation.

Any comments from the group?



--


__________________________________________________ _____________________________
"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs
22:3

John Cassara wrote:

What is a cheep Chinese genset?

Something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/12KW-DIESEL-Elec...QQcmdZViewItem

For just the head, see:

http://www.utterpower.com/ST.htm

These run households fairly well. Generally you have to run them a bit
fast to make 120/240 (62-63 hz).

sd


"dazed and confuzzed" wrote in message
...

wrote:

Kipor or Honda generators versus engine driven alternators?

I see two or three problems with a 'normal' generator setup.

1 - I want 1 or 2 litres of petrol on the boat, in the 4-stroke
outboard and that's it.

Why not use a diesel genset from the get go?

2 -Traditional generators involve lots of mains potential ac floating
around the boat.

3 - Unless you lay out 30 to 50% extra for the electronic, smoothed
output generators you run the risk of destroying sensitive electronic
equipment like laptop power supplies and microwave timer mechanisms (
or so I'm told )

I have not found this to be true. I use a cheap chinese generator running
off of a lister CS generator, and have run my entire household for DAYS on
that setup. No damage to either the microwave or the Internet connection,
or the computers (desktop and laptop) nor the Dish network receiver or the
televisions or the stereo or refrigerator or freezer. The only thing that
runs poorly is the old electric clock, and that is because I run the
genset at 62-63 hz. I know several people who use cheap gensets and
electronic equipment with no issues.

YMMV

4 - Running a 37 kw diesel to extract 50 or even 100 amps at 14 volts
is notoriously bad for the diesel engine, very inefficient and noisy.

5 - running a generator to drive into the shore circuit to charge
batteries via a mains 100 amp charger is a reasonable idea but somewhat
inefficent.

So I did some thinking and my idea for the boat is as follows.

I'm keen on placing a small inverter close to each piece of mains kit (
just the microwave at the moment ) and sticking to battery potentials
in general elsewhere. This means that I can use the microwave even
without the generator running.

It also means that I have to find vast amounts of charge and surplus 12
volts nominal from somewhere.

Leave the engine alternator in place and use it for the starting
battery except in emergencies

Put in a modest ( 25 amp? ) but good 4 stage mains driven battery
charger running from the shore power circuit.

Then I want to use the motor from a Kipor diesel generator to drive a
regular 120 amp marine alternator via an alternator managment system.

Upside - no mains voltages floating around, 1/2 the generator system
becomes 'standard' the alternator, regulator and charge management
systems are all replaceable anywhere ( just about ). The system is not
too sensitive to the engine running speed ( if the governor goes
haywire i can at least hold a constant throttle position and still get
a charge. ) There are no frequency matching problems - all kit is still
DC, except that driven by inverters. In a breakdown situation I have
the main engine alternator as a backup system.

Apart from the engineering challenge ie matching my alternator to the
kipor engine, I really cant see the downside to this type of
installation.

Any comments from the group?



--


________________________________________________ _______________________________
"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs
22:3







--


__________________________________________________ _____________________________
"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3

wrote:

Fair comment on the power filter norman, probably a good idea for
sensitive loads whatever setup you have!

But $500 for 1500w goes a long way to buying a complete diesel genset!

Anyone else got a comment on my original setup?
Ian

Two comments:

1: You are looking to pull an awful lot of very high current cables in
with your approach as currents are much higher and allowable voltage
drops smaller. I favor getting the voltage up to a reasonable level as
close as possible to the batteries or alternator rather then carting a
hundred amps of 12V around (which will only be 9V or so at the load).
Do you really want 35mm welding cables to the microwave?


2: Mains voltage electrics onboard are really NOT that big a deal,
certainly given the choice between a dozen meters of cable running at
120/240/415V (depending) and the same length of cable at 12 or 24v with
an inverter on the far end, give me the high voltage circuit any day
(Lower fire risk, deal with the shock issue at source with an RCD (GFI)).
If you must use an inverter, stick it as close to the source of LV power
as possible.

Just my €0.02.

Regards, Dan.