On average, how thick is the putty fairing layer over the mat on a
strip planked hull? I guess it may depend on whether vacuum bags were
used (that's a question too - what's the general consensus on vacuum
bagging a hull?; what are the gains 'cos it looks like loads of
work?).

I'm just trying to cut the molds from the designers lofting templates
and I want to know how much to reduce the size of them by, to allow
for the overall hull thickness. But I also need to order the right
amount of filler too.

The glass suppliers have told me that two layers of 500g m² mat of uni
directional rovings laid at 90° add up to about 0.75mm after layup -
sorry about the metric measurements for the Americans, I haven't a
clue how many ounces/yd² that is - which sounds negiligble to me, but
I have read somewhere of around 3mm or just over 1/8 inch may be
fairing filler.

This sounds a lot to me (after my many attempts at plastering over
defects, I feel that the more you put on, the worse things get). It
seems to me that if easily sanded fairing is used it must be a bit
soft, so would the minimum necessary be used?

I'm talking epoxy here BTW, and I'm assuming that I will make a
reasonable job of laying up the mat .............. hmmm, I can hear
the gods of Famous and Doomed Last Words stirring from their slumber
already.......

TTFN
Pete

First of all don't use mat with epoxy. The binder that holds mat
together is designed to desolve in the styrene in polyester. It will
not bond to epoxy. Even if it did, mat is primarily for adding bulk and
is terribly inefficient for carrying the loads in a strip composite
hull. Loose thick "Roving" also is less than desirable with epoxy. It
takes to much resin to fill adding little to the strength and a lot to
the weight. Uni-directional and bi-directional knitted fabrics are
used to match the strength of the epoxy. Two layers of DB180
bi-directional is about 3mm. Two layers of A-130 unidirectional is
about 1.5mm.

With that out of the way, vacuum bagging is definitely worth if if you
want the most strength with the least weight. It is not all that hard
to do. Check out my web site to see how a team of 6 volunteers with no
experience glassed and bagged my 45' hull.

Fairing putty on a well laid hull ranges from none to what ever is
necessary to get a fair hull. It is not for filling the weave but for
evening out the overall lines. Normally when lofting station molds you
don't consider the fairing putty thickness. If you do everything
exactly right you won't need much putty. If you deliberately allow for
it you will be forced to use a lot more than you would otherwise.

Pete wrote:
On average, how thick is the putty fairing layer over the mat on a
strip planked hull? I guess it may depend on whether vacuum bags were
used (that's a question too - what's the general consensus on vacuum
bagging a hull?; what are the gains 'cos it looks like loads of
work?).

I'm just trying to cut the molds from the designers lofting templates
and I want to know how much to reduce the size of them by, to allow
for the overall hull thickness. But I also need to order the right
amount of filler too.

The glass suppliers have told me that two layers of 500g m² mat of uni
directional rovings laid at 90° add up to about 0.75mm after layup -
sorry about the metric measurements for the Americans, I haven't a
clue how many ounces/yd² that is - which sounds negiligble to me, but
I have read somewhere of around 3mm or just over 1/8 inch may be
fairing filler.

This sounds a lot to me (after my many attempts at plastering over
defects, I feel that the more you put on, the worse things get). It
seems to me that if easily sanded fairing is used it must be a bit
soft, so would the minimum necessary be used?

I'm talking epoxy here BTW, and I'm assuming that I will make a
reasonable job of laying up the mat .............. hmmm, I can hear
the gods of Famous and Doomed Last Words stirring from their slumber
already.......

TTFN
Pete

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:19:50 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

First of all don't use mat with epoxy. The binder that holds mat
together is designed to desolve in the styrene in polyester. It will
not bond to epoxy. Even if it did, mat is primarily for adding bulk and
is terribly inefficient for carrying the loads in a strip composite
hull. Loose thick "Roving" also is less than desirable with epoxy. It
takes to much resin to fill adding little to the strength and a lot to
the weight. Uni-directional and bi-directional knitted fabrics are
used to match the strength of the epoxy. Two layers of DB180
bi-directional is about 3mm. Two layers of A-130 unidirectional is
about 1.5mm.

Ah, now this is something I have not heard of, now I am really
confused. Maybe it is just a question of terminology because the stuff
I'm talking about is specified by the designers Van de Stadt. I say
mat probably in ignorance but the exact specification is for 2 layers
of uni-directional roving laid diagonally, 90° from each other. I
suspect from your comments that I should be sayiing fabrics, I really
had no idea there was a difference between glassfibre for epoxy and
polyester.
Unfortunately for me, the reference A 130 doesn't mean anything to
me, is it an international or national reference? West Systems or
their distributors here do not supply anything like my specifications,
but SP Systems do and it's called unitex woven low crimp
unidirectional fabric, fibre type E-glass. Looks like I've got some
checking to do.

With that out of the way, vacuum bagging is definitely worth if if you
want the most strength with the least weight. It is not all that hard
to do. Check out my web site to see how a team of 6 volunteers with no
experience glassed and bagged my 45' hull.

I've been checking out your site for a while, and after years of
procrastination I have got from it most of my inspiration to finally
go ahead and build myself. Thanks from me and quite a few others I
should think.

Fairing putty on a well laid hull ranges from none to what ever is
necessary to get a fair hull. It is not for filling the weave but for
evening out the overall lines. Normally when lofting station molds you
don't consider the fairing putty thickness. If you do everything
exactly right you won't need much putty. If you deliberately allow for
it you will be forced to use a lot more than you would otherwise.

Thanks for your help

Pete wrote:
On average, how thick is the putty fairing layer over the mat on a
strip planked hull? I guess it may depend on whether vacuum bags were
used (that's a question too - what's the general consensus on vacuum
bagging a hull?; what are the gains 'cos it looks like loads of
work?).

I'm just trying to cut the molds from the designers lofting templates
and I want to know how much to reduce the size of them by, to allow
for the overall hull thickness. But I also need to order the right
amount of filler too.

The glass suppliers have told me that two layers of 500g m² mat of uni
directional rovings laid at 90° add up to about 0.75mm after layup -
sorry about the metric measurements for the Americans, I haven't a
clue how many ounces/yd² that is - which sounds negiligble to me, but
I have read somewhere of around 3mm or just over 1/8 inch may be
fairing filler.

This sounds a lot to me (after my many attempts at plastering over
defects, I feel that the more you put on, the worse things get). It
seems to me that if easily sanded fairing is used it must be a bit
soft, so would the minimum necessary be used?

I'm talking epoxy here BTW, and I'm assuming that I will make a
reasonable job of laying up the mat .............. hmmm, I can hear
the gods of Famous and Doomed Last Words stirring from their slumber
already.......

TTFN
Pete

Lets get the terminology straight first.

Roving is a thick yarn loosely woven fabric used as the structural
component in a polyester lay-up.

Cloth is a thin yarn relatively tightly woven fabric used as the top ply
in polyester and epoxy lay-ups.

Mat is a loose felt like glass fiber with no weave. it is just random
fibers mixed with a styrene based binder and lightly pressed into a
sheet. It is used between layers of roving to fill the voids between
yarns and under the outside cloth to prevent the weave of the roving
from printing through as the polyester cures.

Knitted fabric is straight, unwoven glass yarns that are held together
in a fabric by very light weight threads knitted across the yarns. The
yarns can run the long or warp direction, across the short or weft
direction. Two or three plys of yarn can be knitted together on the
bias (45/45) or warp and weft (0/90) or some combination. It is called
Bi-axial or tri-axial.

The numbers used on US fabrics are the ounces per square yard.

A-130 is 13 oz/sq.yd. unidirectional knitted E-glass. DB180 is 18 oz
45/45 bidirectional. CD120 is 12 oz 0/90 bidirectional. When there are
4 digits it is usually some kind of combination of fabric and mat.
DB1808 is 18 oz biaxial with a layer of 8 oz mat laminated to it.

Here is a page with all the Knytex fabric specs.
http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/pdf/...tedFabrics.pdf

Another word of advice, never buy fabric that has an epoxy maker's name
on it. Check around for a fiberglass supplier that handles the major
maker's lines. You are going to be buying at least a couple of rolls
and the prices get a LOT lower in full rolls.

Pete wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:19:50 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:


First of all don't use mat with epoxy. The binder that holds mat
together is designed to desolve in the styrene in polyester. It will
not bond to epoxy. Even if it did, mat is primarily for adding bulk and
is terribly inefficient for carrying the loads in a strip composite
hull. Loose thick "Roving" also is less than desirable with epoxy. It
takes to much resin to fill adding little to the strength and a lot to
the weight. Uni-directional and bi-directional knitted fabrics are
used to match the strength of the epoxy. Two layers of DB180
bi-directional is about 3mm. Two layers of A-130 unidirectional is
about 1.5mm.


Ah, now this is something I have not heard of, now I am really
confused. Maybe it is just a question of terminology because the stuff
I'm talking about is specified by the designers Van de Stadt. I say
mat probably in ignorance but the exact specification is for 2 layers
of uni-directional roving laid diagonally, 90° from each other. I
suspect from your comments that I should be sayiing fabrics, I really
had no idea there was a difference between glassfibre for epoxy and
polyester.
Unfortunately for me, the reference A 130 doesn't mean anything to
me, is it an international or national reference? West Systems or
their distributors here do not supply anything like my specifications,
but SP Systems do and it's called unitex woven low crimp
unidirectional fabric, fibre type E-glass. Looks like I've got some
checking to do.


With that out of the way, vacuum bagging is definitely worth if if you
want the most strength with the least weight. It is not all that hard
to do. Check out my web site to see how a team of 6 volunteers with no
experience glassed and bagged my 45' hull.


I've been checking out your site for a while, and after years of
procrastination I have got from it most of my inspiration to finally
go ahead and build myself. Thanks from me and quite a few others I
should think.

Fairing putty on a well laid hull ranges from none to what ever is
necessary to get a fair hull. It is not for filling the weave but for
evening out the overall lines. Normally when lofting station molds you
don't consider the fairing putty thickness. If you do everything
exactly right you won't need much putty. If you deliberately allow for
it you will be forced to use a lot more than you would otherwise.


Thanks for your help

Pete wrote:

On average, how thick is the putty fairing layer over the mat on a
strip planked hull? I guess it may depend on whether vacuum bags were
used (that's a question too - what's the general consensus on vacuum
bagging a hull?; what are the gains 'cos it looks like loads of
work?).

I'm just trying to cut the molds from the designers lofting templates
and I want to know how much to reduce the size of them by, to allow
for the overall hull thickness. But I also need to order the right
amount of filler too.

The glass suppliers have told me that two layers of 500g m² mat of uni
directional rovings laid at 90° add up to about 0.75mm after layup -
sorry about the metric measurements for the Americans, I haven't a
clue how many ounces/yd² that is - which sounds negiligble to me, but
I have read somewhere of around 3mm or just over 1/8 inch may be
fairing filler.

This sounds a lot to me (after my many attempts at plastering over
defects, I feel that the more you put on, the worse things get). It
seems to me that if easily sanded fairing is used it must be a bit
soft, so would the minimum necessary be used?

I'm talking epoxy here BTW, and I'm assuming that I will make a
reasonable job of laying up the mat .............. hmmm, I can hear
the gods of Famous and Doomed Last Words stirring from their slumber
already.......

TTFN
Pete



--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

A lot clearer now, thanks.

Pete

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:26:07 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

Lets get the terminology straight first.

Roving is a thick yarn loosely woven fabric used as the structural
component in a polyester lay-up.

Cloth is a thin yarn relatively tightly woven fabric used as the top ply
in polyester and epoxy lay-ups.

Mat is a loose felt like glass fiber with no weave. it is just random
fibers mixed with a styrene based binder and lightly pressed into a
sheet. It is used between layers of roving to fill the voids between
yarns and under the outside cloth to prevent the weave of the roving
from printing through as the polyester cures.

Knitted fabric is straight, unwoven glass yarns that are held together
in a fabric by very light weight threads knitted across the yarns. The
yarns can run the long or warp direction, across the short or weft
direction. Two or three plys of yarn can be knitted together on the
bias (45/45) or warp and weft (0/90) or some combination. It is called
Bi-axial or tri-axial.

The numbers used on US fabrics are the ounces per square yard.

A-130 is 13 oz/sq.yd. unidirectional knitted E-glass. DB180 is 18 oz
45/45 bidirectional. CD120 is 12 oz 0/90 bidirectional. When there are
4 digits it is usually some kind of combination of fabric and mat.
DB1808 is 18 oz biaxial with a layer of 8 oz mat laminated to it.

Here is a page with all the Knytex fabric specs.
http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/pdf/...tedFabrics.pdf

Another word of advice, never buy fabric that has an epoxy maker's name
on it. Check around for a fiberglass supplier that handles the major
maker's lines. You are going to be buying at least a couple of rolls
and the prices get a LOT lower in full rolls.

Pete wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:19:50 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:


First of all don't use mat with epoxy. The binder that holds mat
together is designed to desolve in the styrene in polyester. It will
not bond to epoxy. Even if it did, mat is primarily for adding bulk and
is terribly inefficient for carrying the loads in a strip composite
hull. Loose thick "Roving" also is less than desirable with epoxy. It
takes to much resin to fill adding little to the strength and a lot to
the weight. Uni-directional and bi-directional knitted fabrics are
used to match the strength of the epoxy. Two layers of DB180
bi-directional is about 3mm. Two layers of A-130 unidirectional is
about 1.5mm.


Ah, now this is something I have not heard of, now I am really
confused. Maybe it is just a question of terminology because the stuff
I'm talking about is specified by the designers Van de Stadt. I say
mat probably in ignorance but the exact specification is for 2 layers
of uni-directional roving laid diagonally, 90° from each other. I
suspect from your comments that I should be sayiing fabrics, I really
had no idea there was a difference between glassfibre for epoxy and
polyester.
Unfortunately for me, the reference A 130 doesn't mean anything to
me, is it an international or national reference? West Systems or
their distributors here do not supply anything like my specifications,
but SP Systems do and it's called unitex woven low crimp
unidirectional fabric, fibre type E-glass. Looks like I've got some
checking to do.


With that out of the way, vacuum bagging is definitely worth if if you
want the most strength with the least weight. It is not all that hard
to do. Check out my web site to see how a team of 6 volunteers with no
experience glassed and bagged my 45' hull.


I've been checking out your site for a while, and after years of
procrastination I have got from it most of my inspiration to finally
go ahead and build myself. Thanks from me and quite a few others I
should think.

Fairing putty on a well laid hull ranges from none to what ever is
necessary to get a fair hull. It is not for filling the weave but for
evening out the overall lines. Normally when lofting station molds you
don't consider the fairing putty thickness. If you do everything
exactly right you won't need much putty. If you deliberately allow for
it you will be forced to use a lot more than you would otherwise.


Thanks for your help

Pete wrote:

On average, how thick is the putty fairing layer over the mat on a
strip planked hull? I guess it may depend on whether vacuum bags were
used (that's a question too - what's the general consensus on vacuum
bagging a hull?; what are the gains 'cos it looks like loads of
work?).

I'm just trying to cut the molds from the designers lofting templates
and I want to know how much to reduce the size of them by, to allow
for the overall hull thickness. But I also need to order the right
amount of filler too.

The glass suppliers have told me that two layers of 500g m² mat of uni
directional rovings laid at 90° add up to about 0.75mm after layup -
sorry about the metric measurements for the Americans, I haven't a
clue how many ounces/yd² that is - which sounds negiligble to me, but
I have read somewhere of around 3mm or just over 1/8 inch may be
fairing filler.

This sounds a lot to me (after my many attempts at plastering over
defects, I feel that the more you put on, the worse things get). It
seems to me that if easily sanded fairing is used it must be a bit
soft, so would the minimum necessary be used?

I'm talking epoxy here BTW, and I'm assuming that I will make a
reasonable job of laying up the mat .............. hmmm, I can hear
the gods of Famous and Doomed Last Words stirring from their slumber
already.......

TTFN
Pete

Yes, very good answer. But one question looms still...

Someone in the post below said that mat it held together with a styrene
based binder that dissolves in polyester resin but not epoxy resin. Then
how come System Three, RAKA, and other companies sell 1708 (17 oz cloth plus
8 oz mat) that is compatible with epoxy? Surely these outfits must be
selling material with something other than a styrene based binder in it???
Can anybody offer a good answer on this?

Thanks,
Brian


"Pete" wrote in message
...
A lot clearer now, thanks.

Pete

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:26:07 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

Lets get the terminology straight first.

Roving is a thick yarn loosely woven fabric used as the structural
component in a polyester lay-up.

Cloth is a thin yarn relatively tightly woven fabric used as the top ply
in polyester and epoxy lay-ups.

Mat is a loose felt like glass fiber with no weave. it is just random
fibers mixed with a styrene based binder and lightly pressed into a
sheet. It is used between layers of roving to fill the voids between
yarns and under the outside cloth to prevent the weave of the roving
from printing through as the polyester cures.

Knitted fabric is straight, unwoven glass yarns that are held together
in a fabric by very light weight threads knitted across the yarns. The
yarns can run the long or warp direction, across the short or weft
direction. Two or three plys of yarn can be knitted together on the
bias (45/45) or warp and weft (0/90) or some combination. It is called
Bi-axial or tri-axial.

The numbers used on US fabrics are the ounces per square yard.

A-130 is 13 oz/sq.yd. unidirectional knitted E-glass. DB180 is 18 oz
45/45 bidirectional. CD120 is 12 oz 0/90 bidirectional. When there are
4 digits it is usually some kind of combination of fabric and mat.
DB1808 is 18 oz biaxial with a layer of 8 oz mat laminated to it.

Here is a page with all the Knytex fabric specs.
http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/pdf/...tedFabrics.pdf

Another word of advice, never buy fabric that has an epoxy maker's name
on it. Check around for a fiberglass supplier that handles the major
maker's lines. You are going to be buying at least a couple of rolls
and the prices get a LOT lower in full rolls.

Pete wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:19:50 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:


First of all don't use mat with epoxy. The binder that holds mat
together is designed to desolve in the styrene in polyester. It will
not bond to epoxy. Even if it did, mat is primarily for adding bulk
and
is terribly inefficient for carrying the loads in a strip composite
hull. Loose thick "Roving" also is less than desirable with epoxy. It
takes to much resin to fill adding little to the strength and a lot to
the weight. Uni-directional and bi-directional knitted fabrics are
used to match the strength of the epoxy. Two layers of DB180
bi-directional is about 3mm. Two layers of A-130 unidirectional is
about 1.5mm.


Ah, now this is something I have not heard of, now I am really
confused. Maybe it is just a question of terminology because the stuff
I'm talking about is specified by the designers Van de Stadt. I say
mat probably in ignorance but the exact specification is for 2 layers
of uni-directional roving laid diagonally, 90° from each other. I
suspect from your comments that I should be sayiing fabrics, I really
had no idea there was a difference between glassfibre for epoxy and
polyester.
Unfortunately for me, the reference A 130 doesn't mean anything to
me, is it an international or national reference? West Systems or
their distributors here do not supply anything like my specifications,
but SP Systems do and it's called unitex woven low crimp
unidirectional fabric, fibre type E-glass. Looks like I've got some
checking to do.


With that out of the way, vacuum bagging is definitely worth if if you
want the most strength with the least weight. It is not all that hard
to do. Check out my web site to see how a team of 6 volunteers with no
experience glassed and bagged my 45' hull.


I've been checking out your site for a while, and after years of
procrastination I have got from it most of my inspiration to finally
go ahead and build myself. Thanks from me and quite a few others I
should think.

Fairing putty on a well laid hull ranges from none to what ever is
necessary to get a fair hull. It is not for filling the weave but for
evening out the overall lines. Normally when lofting station molds you
don't consider the fairing putty thickness. If you do everything
exactly right you won't need much putty. If you deliberately allow for
it you will be forced to use a lot more than you would otherwise.


Thanks for your help

Pete wrote:

On average, how thick is the putty fairing layer over the mat on a
strip planked hull? I guess it may depend on whether vacuum bags were
used (that's a question too - what's the general consensus on vacuum
bagging a hull?; what are the gains 'cos it looks like loads of
work?).

I'm just trying to cut the molds from the designers lofting templates
and I want to know how much to reduce the size of them by, to allow
for the overall hull thickness. But I also need to order the right
amount of filler too.

The glass suppliers have told me that two layers of 500g m² mat of uni
directional rovings laid at 90° add up to about 0.75mm after layup -
sorry about the metric measurements for the Americans, I haven't a
clue how many ounces/yd² that is - which sounds negiligble to me, but
I have read somewhere of around 3mm or just over 1/8 inch may be
fairing filler.

This sounds a lot to me (after my many attempts at plastering over
defects, I feel that the more you put on, the worse things get). It
seems to me that if easily sanded fairing is used it must be a bit
soft, so would the minimum necessary be used?

I'm talking epoxy here BTW, and I'm assuming that I will make a
reasonable job of laying up the mat .............. hmmm, I can hear
the gods of Famous and Doomed Last Words stirring from their slumber
already.......

TTFN
Pete

After using hundreds of kilos of fairing material on boats, the most
important thing is that the boat hull start out fair!!

Make far more effort on your hull lines and construction to save a HUGE
amount of work fairing it.

TIP: get in contact with a plasterer...use the same tools and techniques as
wall plasterers (houses).

TIP: Use a sanding board at least twice as long as you think you need.
Always sand @ 45 degress to main planes (fore/aft Keel/sheer), but have the
sanding board aligned with the longest plane (fore/aft). You will need at
least two or three boards for one hull, stiffer ones for the straighter bits
and bendy ones for the curvier bits. These need to be just right so they
contact the hull properly when sanding.

TIP: Make the sanding boards out of something LIGHT!. You will have "Arny"
arms after a few weeks of using boards made out of plywood or similar. A
nice piece of 4" wide oregon run through a thicknesser to about 3/8" makes a
nice board, for the middle of the boat about 3 feet long is a minimum.

Unidirectional and woven fabrics are usually very accurate in thickness, use
this to your advantage and make sure your overlaps are straight and even. If
possible, make your overlaps along the hull, not across it. It is far easier
to fair join in the bow/stern plane than the keel/sheer plane. Think of the
'glass material as plywood for the same reasons...you wouldn't have a lap
join going around a hull would you?

There are a number of reasons for using vacuum process for reinforced
plastics (ie fibreglass):

1. It removes any excess resin from the fabric, to save weight
2. It (in theory anyway) should give you an even thickness in laminate,
particularly when using uni or woven fabrics, further helping with your
fairing
3. It (with the right amount of vacuum) will give the best
reinforcement/resin ratio (ask your resin supplier and/or reinforcement
supplier for this info).
4. It should leave no voids due to even pressure (from the atmosphere) on
all areas being vacuumed.

Make test pieces first to trial your process, laminate thickness and to make
sure your resin system is actually suited to a vacuum process (I have seen
some that are not!).

TIP: Don't get sucked in by "brandname" vacuum bits and pieces for your
bagging process. Use cheap window glazing material (pliable double sided
stuff), this works brilliant on bags. Use heavy (200 micron+) clear poly
film (building supply - hardware store), test it to make sure it doesn't
LEAK! - Buy small bits first.

TIP: Make sure the hull part you are vacuuming will support a vacuum. If
there are any leaks from behind the timber/foam/laminate structure, the
vacuum will suck the resin right out of the reinforcing. TEST it first!

With practice and testing, vacuuming processes are very simple and extremely
effective.

Good luck and have fun.

Rod.

"Pete" wrote in message
...
On average, how thick is the putty fairing layer over the mat on a
strip planked hull? I guess it may depend on whether vacuum bags were
used (that's a question too - what's the general consensus on vacuum
bagging a hull?; what are the gains 'cos it looks like loads of
work?).

I'm just trying to cut the molds from the designers lofting templates
and I want to know how much to reduce the size of them by, to allow
for the overall hull thickness. But I also need to order the right
amount of filler too.

The glass suppliers have told me that two layers of 500g m² mat of uni
directional rovings laid at 90° add up to about 0.75mm after layup -
sorry about the metric measurements for the Americans, I haven't a
clue how many ounces/yd² that is - which sounds negiligble to me, but
I have read somewhere of around 3mm or just over 1/8 inch may be
fairing filler.

This sounds a lot to me (after my many attempts at plastering over
defects, I feel that the more you put on, the worse things get). It
seems to me that if easily sanded fairing is used it must be a bit
soft, so would the minimum necessary be used?

I'm talking epoxy here BTW, and I'm assuming that I will make a
reasonable job of laying up the mat .............. hmmm, I can hear
the gods of Famous and Doomed Last Words stirring from their slumber
already.......

TTFN
Pete

Good question but the answer is a bit complicated. Epoxy will bond to
mat but the bond is a bit weaker because the bond is to the sizing more
so than the glass. I use DB1808 for tabbing non-structural parts
primarily because it maintains its shape when it is wet out better than
straignt DB180 but it still makes me a little nervous. It is very hard
to get the mat to wet out. Even when you get it soaked in epoxy and
work it a lot you can still see the mat fibers which means the binder
has not desolved.

My main objection to straight mat is that it adds weight and consumes
resin at a much higher rate than it does strength. It is really more how
epoxy is used to take advantage of its properties. That is why
uni-directional fabrics are favored over woven cloth and cored
construction over solid layups. The goal is the maximum strength for
the elast weight. Besides having higher bond strength epoxy has a much
higer modulus than polyester. That is, it stretches less for a given
amount of stress. To get all the value from of epoxy it should be
matched to the fabric. Glass is the primary load carrying component
in a composite but it can only take the load in the direction of the
fibers. In tension the crimps in woven cloth have to straighten out
before they can take the load. The resin has to yield until the fibers
straighten out. With a lower modulus, polyester will stretch while
epoxy must take the load it was not intended to do.

With mat the situation is even worse. Only about 1/12 of the random
fibers in mat are oriented to take a load at any particular time and
then over only a very short distance. The epoxy must then carry it to
the next fiber. Mat is intended to fill the weave between load carrying
plys and add bulk. It soaks up a lot of resin which is not acceptable
with lower cost polyester but it is a waste of epoxy.


Brian D wrote:
Yes, very good answer. But one question looms still...

Someone in the post below said that mat it held together with a styrene
based binder that dissolves in polyester resin but not epoxy resin. Then
how come System Three, RAKA, and other companies sell 1708 (17 oz cloth plus
8 oz mat) that is compatible with epoxy? Surely these outfits must be
selling material with something other than a styrene based binder in it???
Can anybody offer a good answer on this?

Thanks,
Brian


"Pete" wrote in message
...

A lot clearer now, thanks.

Pete

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:26:07 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:


Lets get the terminology straight first.

Roving is a thick yarn loosely woven fabric used as the structural
component in a polyester lay-up.

Cloth is a thin yarn relatively tightly woven fabric used as the top ply
in polyester and epoxy lay-ups.

Mat is a loose felt like glass fiber with no weave. it is just random
fibers mixed with a styrene based binder and lightly pressed into a
sheet. It is used between layers of roving to fill the voids between
yarns and under the outside cloth to prevent the weave of the roving

from printing through as the polyester cures.

Knitted fabric is straight, unwoven glass yarns that are held together
in a fabric by very light weight threads knitted across the yarns. The
yarns can run the long or warp direction, across the short or weft
direction. Two or three plys of yarn can be knitted together on the
bias (45/45) or warp and weft (0/90) or some combination. It is called
Bi-axial or tri-axial.

The numbers used on US fabrics are the ounces per square yard.

A-130 is 13 oz/sq.yd. unidirectional knitted E-glass. DB180 is 18 oz
45/45 bidirectional. CD120 is 12 oz 0/90 bidirectional. When there are
4 digits it is usually some kind of combination of fabric and mat.
DB1808 is 18 oz biaxial with a layer of 8 oz mat laminated to it.

Here is a page with all the Knytex fabric specs.
http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/pdf/...tedFabrics.pdf

Another word of advice, never buy fabric that has an epoxy maker's name
on it. Check around for a fiberglass supplier that handles the major
maker's lines. You are going to be buying at least a couple of rolls
and the prices get a LOT lower in full rolls.

Pete wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:19:50 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:



First of all don't use mat with epoxy. The binder that holds mat
together is designed to desolve in the styrene in polyester. It will
not bond to epoxy. Even if it did, mat is primarily for adding bulk

and

is terribly inefficient for carrying the loads in a strip composite
hull. Loose thick "Roving" also is less than desirable with epoxy. It
takes to much resin to fill adding little to the strength and a lot to
the weight. Uni-directional and bi-directional knitted fabrics are
used to match the strength of the epoxy. Two layers of DB180
bi-directional is about 3mm. Two layers of A-130 unidirectional is
about 1.5mm.


Ah, now this is something I have not heard of, now I am really
confused. Maybe it is just a question of terminology because the stuff
I'm talking about is specified by the designers Van de Stadt. I say
mat probably in ignorance but the exact specification is for 2 layers
of uni-directional roving laid diagonally, 90° from each other. I
suspect from your comments that I should be sayiing fabrics, I really
had no idea there was a difference between glassfibre for epoxy and
polyester.
Unfortunately for me, the reference A 130 doesn't mean anything to
me, is it an international or national reference? West Systems or
their distributors here do not supply anything like my specifications,
but SP Systems do and it's called unitex woven low crimp
unidirectional fabric, fibre type E-glass. Looks like I've got some
checking to do.



With that out of the way, vacuum bagging is definitely worth if if you
want the most strength with the least weight. It is not all that hard
to do. Check out my web site to see how a team of 6 volunteers with no
experience glassed and bagged my 45' hull.


I've been checking out your site for a while, and after years of
procrastination I have got from it most of my inspiration to finally
go ahead and build myself. Thanks from me and quite a few others I
should think.


Fairing putty on a well laid hull ranges from none to what ever is
necessary to get a fair hull. It is not for filling the weave but for
evening out the overall lines. Normally when lofting station molds you
don't consider the fairing putty thickness. If you do everything
exactly right you won't need much putty. If you deliberately allow for
it you will be forced to use a lot more than you would otherwise.


Thanks for your help


Pete wrote:


On average, how thick is the putty fairing layer over the mat on a
strip planked hull? I guess it may depend on whether vacuum bags were
used (that's a question too - what's the general consensus on vacuum
bagging a hull?; what are the gains 'cos it looks like loads of
work?).

I'm just trying to cut the molds from the designers lofting templates
and I want to know how much to reduce the size of them by, to allow
for the overall hull thickness. But I also need to order the right
amount of filler too.

The glass suppliers have told me that two layers of 500g m² mat of uni
directional rovings laid at 90° add up to about 0.75mm after layup -
sorry about the metric measurements for the Americans, I haven't a
clue how many ounces/yd² that is - which sounds negiligble to me, but
I have read somewhere of around 3mm or just over 1/8 inch may be
fairing filler.

This sounds a lot to me (after my many attempts at plastering over
defects, I feel that the more you put on, the worse things get). It
seems to me that if easily sanded fairing is used it must be a bit
soft, so would the minimum necessary be used?

I'm talking epoxy here BTW, and I'm assuming that I will make a
reasonable job of laying up the mat .............. hmmm, I can hear
the gods of Famous and Doomed Last Words stirring from their slumber
already.......

TTFN
Pete





--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

A suggested refinement of fairing technique:
Apply first coat of bog with a notched trowel. This applies a layer of
'noodles' rather than a solid layer. It's much easier to sand and uses less
material. When you've gotten to a fair surface , fill the grooves with a
straight trowel, sand lightly and you're done.



rude wrote:

After using hundreds of kilos of fairing material on boats, the most
important thing is that the boat hull start out fair!!

Make far more effort on your hull lines and construction to save a HUGE
amount of work fairing it.

TIP: get in contact with a plasterer...use the same tools and techniques as
wall plasterers (houses).

TIP: Use a sanding board at least twice as long as you think you need.
Always sand @ 45 degress to main planes (fore/aft Keel/sheer), but have the
sanding board aligned with the longest plane (fore/aft). You will need at
least two or three boards for one hull, stiffer ones for the straighter bits
and bendy ones for the curvier bits. These need to be just right so they
contact the hull properly when sanding.

TIP: Make the sanding boards out of something LIGHT!. You will have "Arny"
arms after a few weeks of using boards made out of plywood or similar. A
nice piece of 4" wide oregon run through a thicknesser to about 3/8" makes a
nice board, for the middle of the boat about 3 feet long is a minimum.

Unidirectional and woven fabrics are usually very accurate in thickness, use
this to your advantage and make sure your overlaps are straight and even. If
possible, make your overlaps along the hull, not across it. It is far easier
to fair join in the bow/stern plane than the keel/sheer plane. Think of the
'glass material as plywood for the same reasons...you wouldn't have a lap
join going around a hull would you?

There are a number of reasons for using vacuum process for reinforced
plastics (ie fibreglass):

1. It removes any excess resin from the fabric, to save weight
2. It (in theory anyway) should give you an even thickness in laminate,
particularly when using uni or woven fabrics, further helping with your
fairing
3. It (with the right amount of vacuum) will give the best
reinforcement/resin ratio (ask your resin supplier and/or reinforcement
supplier for this info).
4. It should leave no voids due to even pressure (from the atmosphere) on
all areas being vacuumed.

Make test pieces first to trial your process, laminate thickness and to make
sure your resin system is actually suited to a vacuum process (I have seen
some that are not!).

TIP: Don't get sucked in by "brandname" vacuum bits and pieces for your
bagging process. Use cheap window glazing material (pliable double sided
stuff), this works brilliant on bags. Use heavy (200 micron+) clear poly
film (building supply - hardware store), test it to make sure it doesn't
LEAK! - Buy small bits first.

TIP: Make sure the hull part you are vacuuming will support a vacuum. If
there are any leaks from behind the timber/foam/laminate structure, the
vacuum will suck the resin right out of the reinforcing. TEST it first!

With practice and testing, vacuuming processes are very simple and extremely
effective.

Good luck and have fun.

Rod.

"Pete" wrote in message
...
On average, how thick is the putty fairing layer over the mat on a
strip planked hull? I guess it may depend on whether vacuum bags were
used (that's a question too - what's the general consensus on vacuum
bagging a hull?; what are the gains 'cos it looks like loads of
work?).

I'm just trying to cut the molds from the designers lofting templates
and I want to know how much to reduce the size of them by, to allow
for the overall hull thickness. But I also need to order the right
amount of filler too.

The glass suppliers have told me that two layers of 500g m² mat of uni
directional rovings laid at 90° add up to about 0.75mm after layup -
sorry about the metric measurements for the Americans, I haven't a
clue how many ounces/yd² that is - which sounds negiligble to me, but
I have read somewhere of around 3mm or just over 1/8 inch may be
fairing filler.

This sounds a lot to me (after my many attempts at plastering over
defects, I feel that the more you put on, the worse things get). It
seems to me that if easily sanded fairing is used it must be a bit
soft, so would the minimum necessary be used?

I'm talking epoxy here BTW, and I'm assuming that I will make a
reasonable job of laying up the mat .............. hmmm, I can hear
the gods of Famous and Doomed Last Words stirring from their slumber
already.......

TTFN
Pete

Good advice, thanks. But ...I'm from Oregon and don't know what you mean by
'a 4" wide oregon'. Do people outside the state call one of our woods
'oregon' instead of by the species name? I think I remember Douglas Fir
being called Oregon fir somewhere ...or maybe it was Hemlock. Do you happen
to know? I'm curious...

Brian


"rude" wrote in message
...
After using hundreds of kilos of fairing material on boats, the most
important thing is that the boat hull start out fair!!

Make far more effort on your hull lines and construction to save a HUGE
amount of work fairing it.

TIP: get in contact with a plasterer...use the same tools and techniques
as
wall plasterers (houses).

TIP: Use a sanding board at least twice as long as you think you need.
Always sand @ 45 degress to main planes (fore/aft Keel/sheer), but have
the
sanding board aligned with the longest plane (fore/aft). You will need at
least two or three boards for one hull, stiffer ones for the straighter
bits
and bendy ones for the curvier bits. These need to be just right so they
contact the hull properly when sanding.

TIP: Make the sanding boards out of something LIGHT!. You will have
"Arny"
arms after a few weeks of using boards made out of plywood or similar. A
nice piece of 4" wide oregon run through a thicknesser to about 3/8" makes
a
nice board, for the middle of the boat about 3 feet long is a minimum.

Unidirectional and woven fabrics are usually very accurate in thickness,
use
this to your advantage and make sure your overlaps are straight and even.
If
possible, make your overlaps along the hull, not across it. It is far
easier
to fair join in the bow/stern plane than the keel/sheer plane. Think of
the
'glass material as plywood for the same reasons...you wouldn't have a lap
join going around a hull would you?

There are a number of reasons for using vacuum process for reinforced
plastics (ie fibreglass):

1. It removes any excess resin from the fabric, to save weight
2. It (in theory anyway) should give you an even thickness in laminate,
particularly when using uni or woven fabrics, further helping with your
fairing
3. It (with the right amount of vacuum) will give the best
reinforcement/resin ratio (ask your resin supplier and/or reinforcement
supplier for this info).
4. It should leave no voids due to even pressure (from the atmosphere) on
all areas being vacuumed.

Make test pieces first to trial your process, laminate thickness and to
make
sure your resin system is actually suited to a vacuum process (I have seen
some that are not!).

TIP: Don't get sucked in by "brandname" vacuum bits and pieces for your
bagging process. Use cheap window glazing material (pliable double sided
stuff), this works brilliant on bags. Use heavy (200 micron+) clear poly
film (building supply - hardware store), test it to make sure it doesn't
LEAK! - Buy small bits first.

TIP: Make sure the hull part you are vacuuming will support a vacuum. If
there are any leaks from behind the timber/foam/laminate structure, the
vacuum will suck the resin right out of the reinforcing. TEST it first!

With practice and testing, vacuuming processes are very simple and
extremely
effective.

Good luck and have fun.

Rod.

"Pete" wrote in message
...
On average, how thick is the putty fairing layer over the mat on a
strip planked hull? I guess it may depend on whether vacuum bags were
used (that's a question too - what's the general consensus on vacuum
bagging a hull?; what are the gains 'cos it looks like loads of
work?).

I'm just trying to cut the molds from the designers lofting templates
and I want to know how much to reduce the size of them by, to allow
for the overall hull thickness. But I also need to order the right
amount of filler too.

The glass suppliers have told me that two layers of 500g m² mat of uni
directional rovings laid at 90° add up to about 0.75mm after layup -
sorry about the metric measurements for the Americans, I haven't a
clue how many ounces/yd² that is - which sounds negiligble to me, but
I have read somewhere of around 3mm or just over 1/8 inch may be
fairing filler.

This sounds a lot to me (after my many attempts at plastering over
defects, I feel that the more you put on, the worse things get). It
seems to me that if easily sanded fairing is used it must be a bit
soft, so would the minimum necessary be used?

I'm talking epoxy here BTW, and I'm assuming that I will make a
reasonable job of laying up the mat .............. hmmm, I can hear
the gods of Famous and Doomed Last Words stirring from their slumber
already.......

TTFN
Pete